53 réponses à ce sujet

[trobbins777]

Mike2640 wrote...

I'd just like to interject once more and say that the scene with Jacob and Tali was really funny. I've seen people really harp on Jacob because of that, calling him "insensitive" and other inaccurate things. He was taking the ******, when Tali was being very hostile. Made me laugh.

Jacob could be very witty and insightful, and he was always pretty straight forward with Shep, which made him pretty cool in my books. I think they were trying to make him more reserved, and introverted (Although at the same time had an air of cockyness about him, kind of a mix between Kaiden and Han Solo) and in a game where we get most of our character development from one-on-one conversation that can cause problems.

Jacob doesn't need salvaging, he just needs more opportunities to show his character that dont involve just a straight conversation with Shep. By that I mean doing things rather than saying them. That's the problem with Mass Effect 2 and most Bioware games in general, I think. When they're not in a fight or talking to the player character, the squad-mates are usually completely static.

Edit: Also of course Ash isn't a racist. That's just being ignorant.

I also laughed at the scene. "Introduce yourself to EDI" right after he said that i was like :O"OH SNAP!".

In all seriousness though i would have loved to see some more of a relationship between him and Miranda. Also i feel that he should have been kind of a foil to the Shepard you make. If you make a paragon Shep he will say you're not doing enough. If you play a renegade, he will say you're going too far.

[Terraneaux]

Here's hoping that in between the 'downtime' between ME2 and 3 he gets his own ship and becomes a vigilante gentleman space pirate. Only way to redeem the character IMHO.

[mineralica]

1. Give poor guy normal armour. Seeing someone running in spandex right before your eyes during battle is very irritating. Something similar to Shepard's armour would be nice.

2. Wrong set of abilities - totally unjustified biotic abilities. Entire set is very close to Grunt's - and Grunt seems to be more charismatic, so have more chances to participate in party. Also pull is very argueable ability. Maybe it'd be better to give him stasis instead of pull and assault rifle instead of pistol?

3. Tune face. Screenshots from ME:G don't give impression sides of my monitor will be broken with that cheeks. ME2 gives that impression (monitor isn't widescreen, however) Plus, walking Dirol ad. So not so much showing teeth and closer to ME:G look.

4. He doesn't love neither that Alliance not that Cerberus are doing, but still works with Cerberus and have ties with Alliance. Even seeing results of experiments didn't make him decide with whom he is. It's strange - let Jacob finally choose his path.

5. I agree that assassin covering back is confusing situation, but why make situation more tense before SM? Why don't simply talk to Shepard? Alistair finished this situation brilliant, while he had far more reasons not to trust Zevran (all in all, Thane didn't tried to kill Shepard). Jacob's discussion with Tali even made me want to punch him (while I'm definitely not a fan of Tali) - first he doesn't approve methods of Cerberus himself, then starts to snap defending Cerberus. If he was supposed to become male replacement for Ashley (when I need advice from heart, I come to you), he should be given some kind of hobby or personal interest in order to not make him walking se for assault rifle.

*. is first permanent squadmate always possible LI in BioWare games? Ah, one exception - BG2. So when I found out that Jacob is permanent squadmate...

[Zulu_DFA]

Become gay, resign from Cerberus, punch a reporter. He'll be universally liked.



For the record: in my game he should really thank Kasumi for her crush on him... It got him Lazarus'd.

[HopHazzard]

jlb524 wrote...

Yes, besides the awful sounding FemShep dialog, Jacob's OK in my books.

I never understood why people hated Jacob so much until I did a FemShep run.

[Major Truth]

I don't like or dislike Jacob to be honest but as a character I think there are four key factors that hold him back:
 
1. He's one dimensional, what you see is what you get. I think this was pretty much the intention for him, a straight shooter that a suspicious Sheppard is willing to give the benefit of the doubt to at the start of the game. If you were to make a direct comparison to say Miranda (Human, Cerberus member, present at the start of the game) you can see a clear difference. With Miranda there are many different layers to her character/personality, where as with Jacob his character never changes from the beginning to end of the game. He's dependable, loyal, a straight talking military man...............not exactly what you'd call box office.
 
2. His role at the start of the game was to fill in some blanks for Sheppard, get him/her used to the changes since ME1 etc. Again very straight forward stuff that is necessary but not exactly exciting. Again making a comparison with Miranda, she gets the opening scene with the illusive man, where they discuss Sheppard. She gets the line ""He's a hero, a bloody icon…But he's just one man.". Now fast forward to Jacob's "Intro" and he tells Sheppard he's a biotic and " Just let me know when you want me to hit them with the good stuff." - again not exactly earth
shattering stuff
        By the end of the opening "Mission" Miranda walks through the door and shoots Wilson between the eyes for being a traitor. That's dramatic whether your Sheppard thinks she's right or not and succeeds in building the Miranda personality, while making Jacob appear somewhat stupid for not suspecting Wilson in the first place. For me Miranda was an intriguing character, the ice queen refusing to see Sheppard as anything more then an asset to Cerberus, unimpressed by his achievements. With Jacob, I'm surprised he didn't ask for Sheppard's autograph
 
3. His comments and judgment are sometimes more then a little off. I've mentioned the Wilson thing but there more then just that. His "I'm not big on forcing these talks" is just annoying and borderline rude. His take on the Legion situation is off, and his treatment of Tali to me made no sense. Here is someone who helped Sheppard save the galaxy, already helped them on Freedoms Progress and he's making smart comments to her. That is just downright stupid, she surely deserves more respect then that, and she's also a close friend of Paragon Sheppard. Tali has often been viewed as the "Little sister of the Normandy",  which would make Jacob a bully for picking on him. His views on Thane basically amount to him questioning Sheppard's judgment, not smart and not in character
 
4. The Jacob Romance is, lets face it, the laughing stock of the Mass Effect universe. Fem Shep acts like a horny teenager around him, and his conversation lines are shocking (and not in an erotic way). "Heavy risk, but the prize............" - WTF were they thinking?

Modifié par Major Truth, 29 novembre 2010 - 11:43 .

[PrinceLionheart]

Major Truth wrote...

3. His comments and judgment are sometimes more then a little off. I've mentioned the Wilson thing but there more then just that. His "I'm not big on forcing these talks" is just annoying and borderline rude. His take on the Legion situation is off, and his treatment of Tali to me made no sense.

Up until that point every Geth they encountered tried to kill them, so how is Jacob wanting to get rid of it "off?" And the thing with Tali I still chalk up to you have to give out respect first if you want people to be respectful to you. Tali acted hostile first, so even if Jacob was being rude, which he wasn't IMO, Tali was the one who initiated it.

[Sialater]

Well, there's also the lines he says that are derogatory to Garrus. Instead of taking it like a gentleman if you dump him for Garrus, he calls him a "cuttlebone." If you press him on his issues in the romance dialog, he tells you to, "go discuss that sort of thing with Garrus, he'll be happy to talk about his problems with you," or something to that effect.



My only problem with the character (aside from the fact that he doesn't seem to like Garrus), is FemShep's cat-in-heat dialogue with him and "the Prize...." I have a romance with him, and I'll be keeping it to see what happens. I actually think he's better off as a pal, though. It look some careful choices, but I got the bro-hug on my Kaidan-faithful Shep. It shouldn't be that hard, though, to become friends with him.



I don't actually think he's as two-dimensional as some have accused. A lot of characters and he himself allude to him and his actions. Heck, two seconds after meeting him, Jack says, "Jacob doesn't know who he is, but that's not my problem." He seems to patch things up with Tali given their original animosity and his friendlier comment about Tali flipping when Legion's brought on board.



I think the only thing that needs to be salvaged is the romance.

[HK-90210]

Major Truth wrote...

3. His comments and judgment are sometimes more then a little off. I've mentioned the Wilson thing but there more then just that. His "I'm not big on forcing these talks" is just annoying and borderline rude. His take on the Legion situation is off, and his treatment of Tali to me made no sense. Here is someone who helped Sheppard save the galaxy, already helped them on Freedoms Progress and he's making smart comments to her. That is just downright stupid, she surely deserves more respect then that, and she's also a close friend of Paragon Sheppard. Tali has often been viewed as the "Little sister of the Normandy",  which would make Jacob a bully for picking on him. His views on Thane basically amount to him questioning Sheppard's judgment, not smart and not in character
 

I've never really seen Jacob as acting rude to Tali in any way. Even Tali tells him "Don't make nice", thus implying that even she wasn't taking his comments as rude or insulting. She just didn't trust Cerberus, and Jacob was Cerberus. As far as I'm concerned, he acted very cordially to her, and she threw his politeness in his face(not that she didn't have reason, what with Cerberus actions towards the fleet).

But I do agree that Jacob's actions towards Thane were very out of character and sort of appeared out of the blue. He wasn't necesarily questioning Shepard's judgement, but he was being very antagonistic. It strikes me that Bioware was going to have those two get into a conflict(a la Miranda&Jack or Tali&Legion). It's already been shown that Mordin and Grunt were going to have a conflict like that, but it ended up being cut. And I can see how Jacob and Thane could get into a fight. Jacob's father was never a particularily good one, and Thane wasn't a very good one either, so Jacob could very well have confronted Thane about it, and Shepard would have to break up wthe two. So it seems like Bioware was going to have a conflict between them, but wanted to build up to it. And once the conflict was cut, they didn't have time to change Thane's introduction.

Frankly I think a conflict like that would have been a plus for Jacob's character.

Modifié par CastonFolarus, 29 novembre 2010 - 05:29 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Randy1083 wrote...
I think Jacob is necessary because he's the only person in the group (not including regular Normandy crew) who seems like he's got his head on straight. He has issues, just like everyone else, but he never makes them anyone else's problem unless they come to him about it. He's rock-solid and dependable, and respects authority but isn't naive enough to accept it without question.

I see. His feature is basically that he is 100% normal, even in spite of his share of daddy issues. Like, he is the guy who, when you don't see him, shakes his head and says to himself: "How did I manage to get stuck in this freak show? Take Shepard for example... Damn you, TIM!"

I concur. It adds the flip side to his "OK-guy" personality.

I've already decided to revive him in my canon, as I learnt that he could tell FemShep to bugger off, if she tryed to play Miranda on him.

Plus I think it would gain Jacob some additional popularity points if it was set in stone that it was he who had dumped their relationship with Miranda, not her.

[curly haired boy]

i like jacob a hell of a lot better than samara. at least he has expressions.

[AdmiralCheez]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Become gay, resign from Cerberus, punch a reporter. He'll be universally liked.

ORLY?  I think I'd storm the Bioware headquarters if that happened.  I've had enough character retcons, thank you very much.

For the record: in my game he should really thank Kasumi for her crush on him... It got him Lazarus'd.

Kasumi's creeper crush on him is both disturbing and adorable.  Those two need to hook up.  I'm not one for shipping, usually, but it needs to happen.  And Jacob would be all "hurr durr what?" the whole time.  Priceless.

Anyway, on-topic.  I see a lot of potential in Jacob's character, but it seems like the writers only developed him halfway.  There's a lot you can do with the down-to-earth, normal guy without betraying his character or making him boring.  Maybe if he just reacted more to everything going on around him and had a little more variation in his lines.  As it is now, he shows genuine emotion so rarely that when he does, it seems like he's out of character.

The trick is to make the audience feel empathy with him.  A character can be the biggest and most boring douche in all of fiction but still be likeable if he's relatable.  But, in order to get that empathy, the guy has to show enough emotion for it to hit home.  It's kind of sad when the robot emotes better than he does.  Mind you, I don't  think he should be the kind of guy who's so outwardly emotional that he cries at chick flicks and stuff, but there are subtleties in speech and body language that can easily be pulled off--and have been pulled off--by what Bioware has available.  Take Samara, for example: even though she's incredibly controlled and speaks in near-monotone, you can tell there's a lot of emotion under that calm exterior.

Also, being a little badass on occasion helps.

[Zulu_DFA]

IDK, if Kasumi's crush is creepy as such or not, but in my game it was creepy (in her own prothean statue comment voice), because it occured after Jacob had bought the farm on the Collector Base. This created a plothole, which after some reserach into Jacob's character I decided to eliminate.

[AdmiralCheez]

Oh, recruited Kasumi post-SM?

[Zulu_DFA]

Ya.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

I don't mind Jacob's personality, but of all the squadmates, he seems the slightly neglected, game and storywise. He's not a very effective squadmate, as Samara and Grunt outperform him in both his roles (pull-bot & tank, respectively), and I personally found his LI story arc kinda weak / off-putting.

I think he'd need a complete overhaul ability-wise before I can really like the guy... maybe if they made him a bit more of a soldier and less of an old-school vanguard. Right now Pull is the only use I have for him and that's pretty much only on his loyalty mission.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 29 novembre 2010 - 07:41 .

[onelifecrisis]

In response to the OP:



Without actually rewriting his character, I personally would have found him more interesting if he'd given some clue as to what motivates him. We know he wants to "take down the bad guys" but there's no sign of any driving force behind this. Compare that with other characters: Mordin is driven to do good because of his genophage guilt; Samara was driven to become a Justicar because of her daughter; Miranda is driven to give meaning to how she was created; Jack is driven by her hatred of those who made her what she is; Thane is driven by a desire to right the wrongs in his life before he dies. But Jacob? We know he's just dying to throw his life away for the greater good, but the game never tells us why. That's why he's boring.

[jlb524]

onelifecrisis wrote...
We know he's just dying to throw his life away for the greater good, but the game never tells us why. That's why he's boring.

Does he really need a reason?

[onelifecrisis]

jlb524 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...
We know he's just dying to throw his life away for the greater good, but the game never tells us why. That's why he's boring.

Does he really need a reason?

I hope that's a joke.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

I don't mind Jacob's personality, but of all the squadmates, he seems the slightly neglected, game and storywise. He's not a very effective squadmate, as Samara and Grunt outperform him in both his roles (pull-bot & tank, respectively), and I personally found his LI story arc kinda weak / off-putting.

I think he'd need a complete overhaul ability-wise before I can really like the guy... maybe if they made him a bit more of a soldier and less of an old-school vanguard. Right now Pull is the only use I have for him and that's pretty much only on his loyalty mission.

An .ini edit that replaces his Shotgun slot with an AR slot does wonders for him.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 29 novembre 2010 - 07:57 .

[jlb524]

onelifecrisis wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...
We know he's just dying to throw his life away for the greater good, but the game never tells us why. That's why he's boring.

Does he really need a reason?

I hope that's a joke.

Oh sure, people can't do the right thing just for the sake of doing the right thing.  

[NanQuan]

Major Truth wrote...

I don't like or dislike Jacob to be honest but as a character I think there are four key factors that hold him back:
 
1. He's one dimensional, what you see is what you get. I think this was pretty much the intention for him, a straight shooter that a suspicious Sheppard is willing to give the benefit of the doubt to at the start of the game. If you were to make a direct comparison to say Miranda (Human, Cerberus member, present at the start of the game) you can see a clear difference. With Miranda there are many different layers to her character/personality, where as with Jacob his character never changes from the beginning to end of the game. He's dependable, loyal, a straight talking military man...............not exactly what you'd call box office.
 
2. His role at the start of the game was to fill in some blanks for Sheppard, get him/her used to the changes since ME1 etc. Again very straight forward stuff that is necessary but not exactly exciting. Again making a comparison with Miranda, she gets the opening scene with the illusive man, where they discuss Sheppard. She gets the line ""He's a hero, a bloody icon…But he's just one man.". Now fast forward to Jacob's "Intro" and he tells Sheppard he's a biotic and " Just let me know when you want me to hit them with the good stuff." - again not exactly earth
shattering stuff
        By the end of the opening "Mission" Miranda walks through the door and shoots Wilson between the eyes for being a traitor. That's dramatic whether your Sheppard thinks she's right or not and succeeds in building the Miranda personality, while making Jacob appear somewhat stupid for not suspecting Wilson in the first place. For me Miranda was an intriguing character, the ice queen refusing to see Sheppard as anything more then an asset to Cerberus, unimpressed by his achievements. With Jacob, I'm surprised he didn't ask for Sheppard's autograph
 
3. His comments and judgment are sometimes more then a little off. I've mentioned the Wilson thing but there more then just that. His "I'm not big on forcing these talks" is just annoying and borderline rude. His take on the Legion situation is off, and his treatment of Tali to me made no sense. Here is someone who helped Sheppard save the galaxy, already helped them on Freedoms Progress and he's making smart comments to her. That is just downright stupid, she surely deserves more respect then that, and she's also a close friend of Paragon Sheppard. Tali has often been viewed as the "Little sister of the Normandy",  which would make Jacob a bully for picking on him. His views on Thane basically amount to him questioning Sheppard's judgment, not smart and not in character
 
4. The Jacob Romance is, lets face it, the laughing stock of the Mass Effect universe. Fem Shep acts like a horny teenager around him, and his conversation lines are shocking (and not in an erotic way). "Heavy risk, but the prize............" - WTF were they thinking?

I agree, whole heartedly.  These are my main reasons for disliking Jacob.  At first I just ignored him, but over time my indifference has suddenly turned to a deep dislike for him.  He just pales in comparision to the other characters.  I much prefer an openly hostile character (like Jack) to a passive agressive, one-dimensional character.

That said, he can be salvaged if Bioware gives him depth, some humor, and basically an overhaul.  At this point Jacob is no better than some random NPC and there's no reason to care whether he lives or dies.

[Terraneaux]

onelifecrisis wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...
We know he's just dying to throw his life away for the greater good, but the game never tells us why. That's why he's boring.

Does he really need a reason?

I hope that's a joke.

Well, he's a black dude in a science fiction story.  Draw your own conclusions.

[Major Truth]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Major Truth wrote...

3.
His comments and judgment are sometimes more then a little off. I'vementioned the Wilson thing but there more then just that. His "I'm notbig on forcing these talks" is just annoying and borderline rude. Histake on the Legion situation is off, and his treatment of Tali to memade no sense.

Up until that point every Geth theyencountered tried to kill them, so how is Jacob wanting to get rid of it "off?" And the thing with Tali I still chalk up to you have to giveout respect first if you want people to be respectful to you. Tali acted hostile first, so even if Jacob was being rude, which he wasn'tIMO, Tali was the one who initiated it.

The Geth was deactivated behind a security shield, hardly a threat. Besides Iwould back Shepard and his entire crew to take out one Geth any day ofthe week. To say his attitude was short sighted is being diplomatic. On the Tali issue her hostility and distrust was directed towards Cerberusnot Jacob, and considering Jacob dosent fully trust Cerberus himself,his attitude was questionable to say the least (Telling a Quarian to say hello to an AI is a smart ass comment). Tali helped save thegalaxy, is a loyal friend of Shepards, and is risking her own life to try and help protect human colonies. A liitle repect wouldn't go a miss !

NanQuan wrote...


I agree, whole heartedly.  These are my main reasons for disliking Jacob.  At first I just ignored him, but over time my indifference has suddenly turned to a deep dislike for him.  He just pales in comparision to the other characters.  I much prefer an openly hostile character (like Jack) to a passive agressive, one-dimensional character.

That said, he can be salvaged if Bioware gives him depth, some humor, and basically an overhaul.  At this point Jacob is no better than some random NPC and there's no reason to care whether he lives or dies.

I'll be intersting to see what Jacob will be like in ME3, if indeed he appears as I agree he is salvagable, but they need to let him take centre stage. For his loyalty mission even then I saw him as more of a supporting act with the main focus being on his father.

I think it says everything that come ME3 I would immediatly notice Miranda not being there but probably not Jacob

Modifié par Major Truth, 30 novembre 2010 - 01:34 .