163 réponses à ce sujet

[naledgeborn]

Because of this thread I'll be making a black Amell to import for my black Hawke. Glad Bioware is keeping us minorities from being left out.

[revan11exile]

revan11exile wrote...

So since the Mage Warden is related to the Hawke family does that mean his/her facial animation will match Hawkes(if given a cameo appearance)

I hope this happens for those who import their Mage Wardens 

[tmp7704]

David Gaider wrote...

Is that meant to imply that the one facial expression you've seen of the character so far must mean he's mentally handicapped in some fashion?

Carver: Momma says mentally handicapped is as mentally handicapped does.

[Nerivant]

tmp7704 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Is that meant to imply that the one facial expression you've seen of the character so far must mean he's mentally handicapped in some fashion?

Carver: Momma says mentally handicapped is as mentally handicapped does.

Ouch. Just... ouch.

Modifié par Nerivant, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:18 .

[tmp7704]

I'm not good enough to quote that stuff without looking it up in imdb first, so if it's wrong they're to blame

[Darkhour]

Metaneira wrote...

I understand that, in game, darker skin tones in humans are assumed to be of Rivaini descent.  Which is fine; it's nice to have an in-game explanation for Duncan's coloring, for example.  Yet one of the problems I encountered when starting my first human noble character in DAO was that I started with a black woman only to discover my parents and brother were these pasty white people.  It's clear that I'm not adopted -- I'm the last of the Cousland line -- so I ended up re-rolling a white character to make the opening story more realistic.  It was disappointing that I was given the option to play a black character (something I've done ever since Ultima first allowed it), but the story was so compelling that I adjusted my character to fit the narrative.  Even if I didn't, however, my family is only featured in the very beginning and end of my tale, so I could have ignored it for the majority of my gameplay experience.

However, from what I know about Dragon Age 2, it looks like Hawke's siblings will play a prominent role in the story -- even as player companions.  I'm wondering why this was.  Perhaps the decision to limit the race of the player character to white a conscious decision, based on player data.  Bioware collected data on Mass Effect 2 that shows only 18% of players pick a femShep.  Maybe it was a simple oversight.  I would love to play a black Hawke, just as I made a black Revan and black Shepard, but my desire for a cohesive narrative will likely win out.  Even if I tried to roleplay that Hawke's parents adopted a stray Rivani child, there would likely be conflicting dialogue from Bethany or Carver that suggests a biological relationship.  It would heavily detract rom the immersive experience I've come to esteem in Bioware RPGs.

Bioware has had such a strong track record of providing traditionally marginalized groups of gamers a way to participate in a fantasy world that reflects who they are in real life.  It saddens me that Dragon Age 2 will limit that for people who want their player character to fit in with the universe seamlessly.

I understand that this can be a contentious issue, and I hope that the forum-dwellers here can approach it with respect and maturity. 

How can any negroid person fit realistically into DA? For one, the people of Thedas know nothing about what lies beyond Thedas. There are no negroids in Thedas. The closest you could get to a negroid Fereldens is a caucasion guy with a dirty face.  I tried to make a non-white human my first go around and quickly realized it was pointless. The dark skin was horrible in DA:O. Not to mention the lack of facial customization made it hard enough to make a white guy that didn't look like the default faces.

[Trintrin86]

David Gaider wrote...

Nerivant wrote...
Yes.

Now you're getting us.

I see.

Really that's about as accurate an assessment as assuming your average poster is a moron because they happen to express an idiotic opinion in a single post-- but I guess it'll happen nevertheless.

Bazinga!

[Nerivant]

Trintrin86 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Nerivant wrote...
Yes.

Now you're getting us.

I see.

Really that's about as accurate an assessment as assuming your average poster is a moron because they happen to express an idiotic opinion in a single post-- but I guess it'll happen nevertheless.

Bazinga!

Why is it that devs only answer my sarcastic posts, and they never note the sarcasm?

It's like they're after me or something. 

[DalishRanger]

naledgeborn wrote...

Because of this thread I'll be making a black Amell to import for my black Hawke. Glad Bioware is keeping us minorities from being left out.

Hey now, I had a dark-skinned Amell way before it was cool.


But seriously, seeing as he's my canon Warden anyway, I'll probably make my main Hawke look like he/she has at least some Rivaini in them. Though I think I'll go for a more mixed approach in looks, just to have a little more variety between my Dragon Age PCs. I can't wait to see how it all affects the looks of the rest of the Hawke family. Should be interesting.

Darkhour wrote...
There are no negroids in Thedas.

Considering we've hardly scratched the surface of Thedas in detail yet, I'd say it's a bit premature to declare that with certainty. I tend to equate Rivaini with Romani and negroid-based people, so I don't see how it could be too much of a stretch. Of course, that is based a bit on my own presumptions, but still - I think it's at least semi-plausible even with what little we currently know.

I will grant it is difficult to make a non-Caucasian featured, darker skinned Warden in DA:O... But it's not impossible.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:37 .

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

DalishRanger wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Because of this thread I'll be making a black Amell to import for my black Hawke. Glad Bioware is keeping us minorities from being left out.

Hey now, I had a dark-skinned Amell way before it was cool.


But seriously, seeing as he's my canon Warden anyway, I'll probably make my main Hawke look like he/she has at least some Rivaini in them. Though I think I'll go for a more mixed approach in looks, just to have a little more variety between my Dragon Age PCs. I can't wait to see how it all affects the looks of the rest of the Hawke family. Should be interesting.

Darkhour wrote...
There are no negroids in Thedas.

Considering we've hardly scratched the surface of Thedas in detail yet, I'd say it's a bit premature to declare that with certainty. I tend to equate Rivaini with Romani and negroid-based people, so I don't see how it could be too much of a stretch. Of course, that is based a bit on my own presumptions, but still - I think it's at least semi-plausible even with what little we currently know.

I will grant it is difficult to make a non-Caucasian featured, darker skinned Warden in DA:O... But it's not impossible.

There's a preset that looks pretty black.

Back on topic, so immediate family will change.. what about the extended family - Amells in Kirkwall?

[KLUME777]

@Bioware

So why did you not have this system in DAO? (The skin-changing-color-for-family-members-according-to-Hawke One)

Surely at least one of the testers noticed this problem? And it is'nt really a thing where you "didn't have time for" since you'd be segragrating 1/3(?) of the audience in a pretty big problem.

I can imagine it must have been quite a turn off since its glaringly present in the very first scene. You may have lost Customers. How can you ignore that?

[Inzhuna]

Was this feature not implemented at demos? Because I think all the family looked the same even with a customised Hawke.

[Xewaka]

David Gaider wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Does it affect the level of herp-derpness of Carver?

"Herp-derpness"?

Is that meant to imply that the one facial expression you've seen of the character so far must mean he's mentally handicapped in some fashion?

There is a difference between "being mentally handicapped" and "having a face that looks dumb". I was intending to refer the second, not the first. It might have been a bit unclear on my part, but having english as a third idiom, subtleties of the language are sometimes lost on me.

[upsettingshorts]

Lots of people "look dumb" when images are taken of them with a fixed, incredulous expression. Hence the term "dumbfounded."

[Xewaka]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Lots of people "look dumb" when images are taken of them with a fixed, incredulous expression. Hence the term "dumbfounded."

Ah, etymologies.
Still, just as the doubts when the first Varric 'shot were dissiped when we saw his awesomeness in Rise to Power, so we need a similar trailer to end the "Carver = Dumb" rumors. Otherwise the joke will be parroted until it loses meaning.

[David Gaider]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Lots of people "look dumb" when images are taken of them with a fixed, incredulous expression. Hence the term "dumbfounded."

Indeed. Carver is horrified in that shot-- not exactly the most flattering expression to capture someone in.

Of course, it wasn't meant to be the poster for him, either. Like with Varric, eventually everyone will see that he looks quite normal.

[David Gaider]

KLUME777 wrote...
@Bioware

So why did you not have this system in DAO? (The skin-changing-color-for-family-members-according-to-Hawke One)

Surely at least one of the testers noticed this problem? And it is'nt really a thing where you "didn't have time for" since you'd be segragrating 1/3(?) of the audience in a pretty big problem.

I can imagine it must have been quite a turn off since its glaringly present in the very first scene. You may have lost Customers. How can you ignore that?

You mention the "didn't have time for" like it's a minor thing, something we could have overcome if we'd just thought about how "unfair" it would be?

We had to cut a lot of things (as we always do late in development, if they're things we're simply not going to be able to do properly). And this is not "segregation". You could, after all, play a character of whatever appearance you wished. Before you use a word like that, you might want to try understanding it first.

[Brockololly]

I think Carver's "derp" face or some of the other odd looking screens of people like Cassandra with the buggy eyes, seems more than just one odd shot: it seems as if the facial animations and faces in general look rather wonky and bizarre.



The whole vacant, glazed over look or the quick transition to bugged out shocked eyes in some of the videos is sort of comical, when presumably those scenes aren't supposed to be.

[upsettingshorts]

Brockololly wrote...

I think Carver's "derp" face or some of the other odd looking screens of people like Cassandra with the buggy eyes, seems more than just one odd shot: it seems as if the facial animations and faces in general look rather wonky and bizarre.

The whole vacant, glazed over look or the quick transition to bugged out shocked eyes in some of the videos is sort of comical, when presumably those scenes aren't supposed to be.

I've gotten the impression these things are fluid.  For example, Isabela's facial proportions look much better in this blog photo of her inventory screen as well as this one than it does in the trailers.

That being said, after seeing the LA Noire trailer I'm crossing my fingers that kind of technology becomes an industry standard - provided it works as well in the full game as it appears to in the trailer - sooner rather than later.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 novembre 2010 - 03:33 .

[Maria Caliban]

KLUME777 wrote...

@Bioware

So why did you not have this system in DAO? (The skin-changing-color-for-family-members-according-to-Hawke One)

I assume lack of time and resources. Mass Effect and other BioWare (engine) games handled this by never showing you the PC's family or by making you adopted.

KLUME777 wrote...

Surely at least one of the testers noticed this problem? And it is'nt really a thing where you "didn't have time for" since you'd be segragrating 1/3(?) of the audience in a pretty big problem.

I can imagine it must have been quite a turn off since its glaringly present in the very first scene. You may have lost Customers. How can you ignore that?

Other than DA 2, the only game I know that does this is Fallout 3. Being the second game to adopt technology that helps minority character fit into the world suggests a level of sensitivity your post doesn't recognize.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:11 .

[NamiraWilhelm]

David Gaider wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Does it affect the level of herp-derpness of Carver?

"Herp-derpness"?

Is that meant to imply that the one facial expression you've seen of the character so far must mean he's mentally handicapped in some fashion?

Haha, you gotta love the rationalisation of a term like 'herp-derpness'. That quotes a keeper

[silentassassin264]

naledgeborn wrote...

Because of this thread I'll be making a black Amell to import for my black Hawke. Glad Bioware is keeping us minorities from being left out.

Possibly.  I would still prefer if my black characters actually could have a nice dark clean complexion rather than looking like they were rolled in some mud.  

[Darkhour]

DalishRanger wrote...

Darkhour wrote...
There are no negroids in Thedas.

Considering we've hardly scratched the surface of Thedas in detail yet, I'd say it's a bit premature to declare that with certainty. I tend to equate Rivaini with Romani and negroid-based people, so I don't see how it could be too much of a stretch. Of course, that is based a bit on my own presumptions, but still - I think it's at least semi-plausible even with what little we currently know.

I will grant it is difficult to make a non-Caucasian featured, darker skinned Warden in DA:O... But it's not impossible.

I am under the impression that the map shown to us is ALL of Thedas.  It's kinda vague as to why they don't know about anything outside the shown map.  The codex makes it sound like there are some mountains west of Orlais, but they're too scared/intimidated to climb them and there is a jungle to the north, but there are too many mosquitos and snakes so they were like F it.  On the otherhand, the elves say humans came from the North into Thedas via Par Vollen... ???? 

And if and when negroids ever make it to Thedas I can't see them being considered human if elves aren't considered human.

[Inzhuna]

I'm pretty sure that's not all of Thedas, because there are a lot of 'uncharted territories'.

[darrylzero]

KLUME777 wrote...

@Bioware

So why did you not have this system in DAO? (The skin-changing-color-for-family-members-according-to-Hawke One)

Surely at least one of the testers noticed this problem? And it is'nt really a thing where you "didn't have time for" since you'd be segragrating 1/3(?) of the audience in a pretty big problem.

I can imagine it must have been quite a turn off since its glaringly present in the very first scene. You may have lost Customers. How can you ignore that?

What I find confusing about this attitude is the idea that if we just made Fergus and the rest darker skinned that would solve something.  I would understand better with regard to Brosca, Mahariel, or Tabris characters (though the absent mother is convenient explanation for city elves), but for the Couslands I don't get it at all.  To me, this eliminates what is interesting about the expereince of racial difference, reducing everything to the melanin content of someone's skin (or perhaps some particular facial features you associate with a given racial/ethnic background).  If you and your family appeared to be from some non-white background, the game would still effectively treat you as white (or more accurately, as Fereldan, since the racial baggage of Thedas is different from our own and Fereldan characters may be among the most discriminated against in other countries, akin perhaps to the way the Irish were treated from well before the British empire had India or Africa to deal with).  It doesn't help you play an afro- or asian- descended character, really.  Isn't that the point?

I respect the developers' insistence that their fantasy world is their fantasy world and that they shouldn't have to (and perhaps couldn't, ultimately) approach race or ethnicity in ways that have obvious or direct connections to the real world.  But I would very much like to play a character that looked dark-skinned and was social marginal because of it.  For me, that's because I am personally very drawn to role-playing conditions of social marginality, because I enjoy doing so most when the issues resonate with the world that we actually live in, and because the aspects of social marginality I find the most interesting/concerning in the real world mostly involve darker skinned people.

So, part of me gets really excited about the idea that I can make the Hawke family look Rivaini and pretend that they've been discriminated against for this.  However, in game, they will not have been discriminated against for this.  In game, they will be discriminated against (if at all) for being refugees, specifically Fereldan refugees, and for being a family of apostates.  Moreover, there's no indication so far that Rivaini peoples are discriminated against in the Free Marches, Orlais, Ferelden, or anywhere else.  It's spawned some interest for me in role-playing some kind of Chasind-descended refugee, as they are clearly treated with some of the suspicion, fear, and contempt I enjoy having to confront and overcome in-game.  But I am more interested in playing urban identities than tribal ones, which makes what I want pretty difficult to accommodate, or at least pretty specific and maybe idiosyncratic.  So, the particular configuration of ethnic difference and social marginality
that I find most compelling to role-play is likely going to remain
unavailable to me. 

This, of course, is not the end of the world.  Bioware remains my favorite developer for their storytelling and their character building, and in DAO, I could play a city elf or a dwarf commoner to get aspects of that.  I did that, in the end, and I enjoyed it.  As I get older, though, I have less and less interest in playing non-human characters (or even in the existence of such "fantasy races").  So, while I find the treatment of elves and dwarves in Thedas interesting (quite interesting, actually), it's no substitute (for me) for a human character facing the same kinds of struggles.  It looks like DA2 will get me closer, as I am particularly interested in refugee identities, especially if I can role-play engaging in criminal behavior as a response to the social marginality of being a refugee (here's hoping I can set myself up as a smuggler in Kirkwall early in the game).  However, I will still almost certainly play with a darker-skinned Hawke family and find myself pretending that it matters that I have done so. 

That's ok, I guess, but mostly I'm waiting for Bioware (or some other developer who genuinely cares about a good story with good characters and takes player choices seriously) to write the story that I am searching for.  I imagine everyone is in this position, to some degree, and I don't mean to imply that my particular baggage here is so important that it needs to be addressed (though I may feel that way at times).  So, what can we do?  I guess I can hope that posts like this catch the eye of a writer and plant the seed of an idea, but that seems like a longshot.  Or, I can hope that Bioware focuses on PC origins in some future game (whether there are several, as in DAO, or only one) that emphasize occupational roles (for lack of a better word) over concerns of race, family, etc.  If backgrounds were things like Chantry initiate, smuggler, or city guard, without specifying race or putting us in contact with our families (akin to the mage origin, in that regard), more of our imaginations about how our characters got to that point could be in play.  In DAO, they have to show elven and dwarven and human society to help introduce characters to the game world, but future titles wouldn't be as compelled to do so.

That said, I'd rather just play a Rivaini smuggler in Antiva or Tevinter, particularly if Rivaini rejection of Andraste in favor of a syncretism of sorts between local tradition and parts of the Qun, has generated suspicion of and even contempt for dark-skinned humans in places like Tevinter with a big Qunari problem.  Fingers crossed...