163 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

do you also think that the fixed beard mechanic in DA2 means a loss of the ability to make wierd gap faced horrible beards?

Of course.

But I don't care about that loss, so I'm not going to complain about it.

In Exile wrote...

DA:O did not allow you to have a differnet skin colour. The game behaved as if you were a trueblood descedent of the Couslands and inheritance of traits (like skin colour) appears to follow the same kind of inheritance as in our world.

Except that you could actually have a different skin colour.  You seem to forget that.

Your claim will be that there is no direct evidence that says you are a trueborn son or that heritability works that way. So what you are saying is that there is less evidence for the claim that you could have different skin colour than your family in DA:O than in DA2.

I don't care how much evidence there is for heritability in DA2.  I care that I can't have a different skin colour.

But that's not the case. The game was designed to support one outcome: trueborn child. It merely lacks as much counter-evidence as DA2.

I don't dispute this.  But I fail to see how it is relevant.

No, because you were never different from them. Again: if it isn't acknowledged in-game, it didn't happen.

But it is acknowledged.  It's acknowledged visually.  The game's representation of how Ferelden looks includes the difference in skin colour.

Are you going to posit some metaphysical dichotomy between the story and the graphics, now?  Oh, but you can't, as your knowledge of the story is informed by cutscenes, which are graphics.

Furthermore, you're focussing just on drastic differences on which you think the game should comment.  What if the PC just happens to be paler than his family, perhaps because he stays indoors, or maybe he had a childhood illness that has no other lasting effects.  There's no reason for those to come up during the game, but they were details available to the player in DAO, and they're not in DA2.

Subtle differences are still meaningful differences, and DA2 won't allow them.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 30 novembre 2010 - 06:59 .

[David Gaider]

Evidently the addition of one feature means the loss of the lack of that feature for those that required that lack to... whatever. I don't get it, but I don't have to. In this case, the number of people that would rather play with a family that mirrors their character appearance choices undoubtedly far, far exceeds those that want to leave their options open for the sake of leaving their options open.



We're not installing a toggle. Period, the end.

[Charsen]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

In Exile wrote...

The skin colour of Hawke's family changes based on yours.

I still think this is a bad idea, and I'd like to disable it.

If it really bothers you, mod it for yourself. It's actually not that hard to do. I'd bet that the vast majority of people think it's normal to have the same skin tone as their biological parents though.

The fact is, many people who play nonwhite characters thought it was a feature that should have been in from the beginning. Bioware clearly agrees.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't dispute that the matching skin tone is a feature that should gave been in from the beginning. I'm not saying people shouldn't have that option.

I want it to be clear though, that to give them that option the other option is begin removed. We're not actually gaining anything. We're still being given one system that will either satisfy us or not.

This isn't an improvement; this is a lateral move. This is demonstrably a lateral move.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 30 novembre 2010 - 07:33 .

[The Masked Rog]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't dispute that the matching skin tone is a feature that should gave been in from the beginning. I'm not saying people shouldn't have that option.

I want it to be clear though, that to give them that option the other option is begin removed. We're not actually gaining anything. We're still being given one system that will either satisfy us or not.

This isn't an improvement; this is a lateral move. This is demonstrably a lateral move.

But what is argued is that one the option they chose is the one the majority of the players will prefer. And I suppose BioWare can demonstrate that, they don't act as they act on a whim.

[David Gaider]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I want it to be clear though, that to give them that option the other option is begin removed. We're not actually gaining anything. We're still being given one system that will either satisfy us or not.

This isn't an improvement; this is a lateral move. This is demonstrably a lateral move.

Yes, we are no longer allowing the option for you to play something other than the biological child of your parents-- an option that wouldn't have been supported by the story, anyhow.

As far as a "lateral move" goes, that's only for people who were really itching to use that option-- who absolutely had to play as adopted/illegitimate characters in order to satisfy whatever mental construction they put together in their head regarding their character (supported by the game or not). In our estimation, this is a pretty small group. Idiosyncratic, in fact, in the face of the much larger group who would like to see their character appearance reflected by their biological family.

For those who still absolutely need to have every option just because-- that's what modding is for.

[Johnny Chaos]

But can i still be black and have a white family? i always find that amusing.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The Masked Rog wrote...

But what is argued is that one the option they chose is the one the majority of the players will prefer.

I don't see how that matters.  That's like the arguments for the intrinsic value of democracy, and I don't get those either.

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, we are no longer allowing the option for you to play something other than the biological child of your parents-- an option that wouldn't have been supported by the story, anyhow.

That wasn't the only reason you might have wanted a different skin tone.  As I mentioned above, you might want the PC's skin tone to show that he's outdoorsy, or indoorsy, or sickly, or whatever else that might have a visible effect on his colouring.

I get the impression that you no longer expect your players to put any effort at all into their characters' backstories.

For those who still absolutely need to have every option just because-- that's what modding is for.

You don't always implement these features such that they are moddable.  For example, you couldn't mute just Shepard in ME, because the voices for a scene were all one file, so you could only mute the entire scene - not just one character.  Also, the change to how shattering worked in patch 1.03 for DAO was a change to how the engine functioned, so Lieutenants could no longer ever shatter under any circumstances.  There was no way to change that back with a mod.

If you think the skin tone matching is moddable, that's good news.

[David Gaider]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
That wasn't the only reason you might have wanted a different skin tone.  As I mentioned above, you might want the PC's skin tone to show that he's outdoorsy, or indoorsy, or sickly, or whatever else that might have a visible effect on his colouring.

I get the impression that you no longer expect your players to put any effort at all into their characters' backstories.

Effort? We provide a backstory for you already. If you wish to conjure a backstory in your head, and the game happily coincides with that-- awesome. If not, then that's too bad. DA2 isn't any more about you playing any character you can imagine than DAO was.

You don't always implement these features such that they are moddable.  For example, you couldn't mute just Shepard in ME, because the voices for a scene were all one file, so you could only mute the entire scene - not just one character.  Also, the change to how shattering worked in patch 1.03 for DAO was a change to how the engine functioned, so Lieutenants could no longer ever shatter under any circumstances.  There was no way to change that back with a mod.

If you think the skin tone matching is moddable, that's good news.

If it's not moddable, then you're SOL I suppose. For those who want a game to conform to their idiosyncratic preferences, however, that's their only option. We aren't here to accommodate idiosyncratic preferences when they conflict with the game we intend to make.

Modifié par David Gaider, 30 novembre 2010 - 07:54 .

[Charsen]

all you would need to do is make the parents in the toolset with whatever skin tone you want and drop it in your override folder. That's what everyone else had to do for nonwhite families in DAO. when DA2 comes out, just ask for help in the toolset forum.

[marbatico]

David Gaider wrote...
For those who still absolutely need to have every option just because-- that's what modding is for.

so we are going to get a toolset?

[Sylvius the Mad]

David Gaider wrote...

Effort? We provide a backstory for you already. If you wish to conjure a backstory in your head, and the game happily coincides with that-- awesome. If not, then that's too bad. DA2 isn't any more about you playing any character you can imagine than DAO was.

But is DA2 less about that than DAO was?

DAO offered very little backstory.  It gave us a location, and sometimes a vocation, and often a family.  But who we were, what we'd done before, and why we'd done those things were left entirely to us.

So, for example, in DAO I could have designed a dwarf commoner who conrtracted a childhood illness after an elf came through Orzammar, and thereafter have feared the disease carried by elves.  And maybe I could choose an appearance to complement that backstory.

If my character has a personality, that personality is going to have some backstory behind it.

[nijnij]

Shouldn't there be a toggle for those of us who want Elf parents ? Just kidding...

[Aroihkin]

Hay guys, I'm RPing that my Hawke lost one of their teeth in a tragic canoeing accident, is that gonna be in game? IT'S NOT? I AM OUTRAGED! I WANT TO SEE A GAP, BIOWARE. A GAAAAAAAP.

[Utoryo]

Sylvius, what you're asking for is a bit like what happened when you edited your biography in Baldur's Gate 2 to say that you're really a child of a Paragon God, not Bhaal, and it's all just a big misunderstanding. Too bad that it's incoherent with absolutely every single major event in the game.

Hawke's family matters (at least somewhat) in DA2. It's not just a small thing to start the game and set the mood. David has even confirmed that you'll discover (unclear how much) about the Amell family and therefore what your potential link is with the Human Mage Grey Warden in Origins. If that comes up in a dialogue, how in the world can you roleplay an adopted child in that context without being incoherent?! And that's just one example among hundreds I'm sure.

There's no reason whatsoever for writers to remove their own story telling flexibility just to please people who want to roleplay something that is canonically not true, and there are still a trillion things you can roleplay anyway.

Modifié par Utoryo, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:25 .

[AtreiyaN7]

Johnny Chaos wrote...

But can i still be black and have a white family? i always find that amusing.

Well, there actually are cases of that sort of thing happening (including black parents having children that are white). Anyone who's interested can read this article about Sandra Laing (true story that resulted in a 2008 movie called Skin). Sometimes genetics can be very strange indeed.

I watched one documentary where a white mother had black offspring, and the scientists speculated that chimerism or mosaicism were nvolved, but that sort of thing is unusual (I think they ran tests and found that the mother had chimeric DNA). Most of the time when you see this happen, it's probably just DNA from some ancestor in a person's family tree expressing itself unexpectedly.

Yep, I'm a font of weird trivia and information.

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:30 .

[Aroihkin]

On a more serious note, one of my Wardens (Alleyana) is a reocurring character of mine of, oh, about fifteen years, converted into Dragon Age's setting. She's disabled. I mean walks with a limp, her face lost a fight with a brick wall (and she's uuugly for it), and her voice sounds like she gargled with ground glass. Her hands are also screwed up so badly that she can't do more intricate things with them than keep a grip on sword and shield.

Of course, when playing her in-game... I managed to get her nose in the toolset headmorph, but the rest isn't there. And everyone mysteriously thinks she's smokin' hot. You don't see me crying that bioware took away my customization, do ya?

So, like, if your parents' skin tones aren't moddable in DA2... use your freaking imagination, 'kay? Just because you don't see it in-game...

[In Exile]

Aroihkin wrote..

So, like, if your parents' skin tones aren't moddable in DA2... use your freaking imagination, 'kay? Just because you don't see it in-game...

... Doesn't mean Duncan isn't alive and with the party, and Alistiar is simply insane?

Modifié par In Exile, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:30 .

[Aroihkin]

In Exile wrote...

Aroihkin wrote..

So, like, if your parents' skin tones aren't moddable in DA2... use your freaking imagination, 'kay? Just because you don't see it in-game...

... Doesn't mean Duncan isn't alive and with the party, and Alistiar is simply insane?

(That's called Alternative Universe. Learn to love it, because it's the only new DAO content you're getting! XD)

[Saibh]

In Exile wrote...

Aroihkin wrote..

So, like, if your parents' skin tones aren't moddable in DA2... use your freaking imagination, 'kay? Just because you don't see it in-game...

... Doesn't mean Duncan isn't alive and with the party, and Alistiar is simply insane?

And I've been calling him Zevran all along!

[Aroihkin]

Saibh wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Aroihkin wrote..

So, like, if your parents' skin tones aren't moddable in DA2... use your freaking imagination, 'kay? Just because you don't see it in-game...

... Doesn't mean Duncan isn't alive and with the party, and Alistiar is simply insane?

And I've been calling him Zevran all along!

Kinky.

[nijnij]

Saibh wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Aroihkin wrote..

So, like, if your parents' skin tones aren't moddable in DA2... use your freaking imagination, 'kay? Just because you don't see it in-game...

... Doesn't mean Duncan isn't alive and with the party, and Alistiar is simply insane?

And I've been calling him Zevran all along!

Actually, I always name my hound Duncan, just to ****** Alistair.

[The Masked Rog]

I don't see how that matters. That's like the arguments for the intrinsic value of democracy, and I don't get those either.

You can't see why BioWare would like to please as many people as they can? Perhaps because they want to sell more as opposite of less? Nothing to do with democracy. Just market sense.

[tmp7704]

Charsen wrote...

all you would need to do is make the parents in the toolset with whatever skin tone you want and drop it in your override folder. That's what everyone else had to do for nonwhite families in DAO. when DA2 comes out, just ask for help in the toolset forum.

I'm actually curious if that's going to be possible when it comes to this particular subject -- because if the family members change appearance based on the features of the player, then it'd imply some sort of either dynamic generation of heads for these characters, or even things being linked directly to the player's data. As such, wonder if these things can be overriden or if the game wouldn't instead override the mod at runtime, or simply ignored it.
Hopefully the "link" to another character's features is part of the character morph itself, and as such can be toggled on/off on individual basis.

Modifié par tmp7704, 30 novembre 2010 - 09:13 .

[bzombo]

i think toggles are cool. in the "toggles amuse me because they're stupid" way. how about a toggle to go straight to the end?