27 réponses à ce sujet

[shubnabub]

I just started a new game after 6 months not playing and it still bugs the mess out of me. My custom fem-shep looks cross-eyed constantly. What's worse is I'm doing my first paragon playthrough...somehow the glowing red renegade eyes managed to alleviate the problem. But now, with clear eyes, the eye crossing is blatant and completely immersion breaking. This was not a problem in ME1. Why is it suddenly a problem in ME2?

I've googled for a fix every way I know and have found very little info on it. Is there a fix? (please let there be one) 



Shep versus normal human (uncrossed) eyes.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us


Slightly crossed? I think so.


Definitely crossed.


Argue with that.

Modifié par Garfuck, 07 décembre 2010 - 02:11 .

[shubnabub]

Actually, after playing for a bit I see the problem is global. Most NPCs have these slightly crossed eyes. This is just silly. I know that when people are at an intimate distance (12-18 inches) their eyes do cross slightly but none of the conversations in ME2 take place at that distance. So why are all the eyes slightly crossed????

If there were tools I imagine the community would have fixed this within 24 hours.

Modifié par Garfuck, 03 décembre 2010 - 10:42 .

[shubnabub]

Does this not bother anyone else?

I actually get eye-strain looking at all these crossed eyes. 

Modifié par Garfuck, 30 novembre 2010 - 11:11 .

[Aggie Punbot]

It's worst on Horizon when talking to the Virmire survivor.

[Shotokanguy]

I didn't notice it much on the 360. It's only obvious a couple times through the entire game.



What bugs me more is Hermia's head turning 180 degrees to look at Parasini as she walks away.

[shubnabub]

It's just so undignified for Shep to be this bad*** and then be looking at you and something slightly to your right. I'm sure bad guys are asking themselves, "Is she looking at me or that ficus in the corner?"

And it seems like they could fix it easily with a couple parameter changes in the code.

@Shotokanguy Agreed, but seeing as that's an isolated instance and the cross-eyed thing is global and constant...heck I wish they would fix a lot of things. Ashley's eyes on Horizon are totally distracting. I have no idea what she actually says cause I'm just staring at her wonky eyes. 

I just wish they would acknowledge these bugs and say they're trying to fix them. There are many that have been here from day 1 that not a thing has been done about. (See dual core load time issue, renegade Conrad Verner, cross-eyed ash) 

Modifié par Garfuck, 03 décembre 2010 - 06:42 .

[Zombie Chow]

I'm kind of scared to mention this, but I don't think I have this cross-eyed problem. I was looking through my FRAPS folder of screenshots as well as Googling.



I'll admit sometimes the Default Male Shepard or Jacob Taylor sometimes have creepy eyes when they strain their faces. The rest of the time they're ok.



Could you share some screenshots of what your Shepard looks like please? I carried over a ME1 Femshepard BUT I did remake her face (I wanted to change her hair and ended up rebuilding her from scratch.) Maybe a certain combination of eye shape/distance/size causes this cross-eye appearance?

[shubnabub]

I used an imported ME1 custom Shep then later used an ME2 custom Shep.

Eyes were always slightly crossed. It gives me a headache to look at. 

Most of the features are the default ones you start with. All I did was shift the mouth and nose up to get the 1/1/1 brow/nose/mouth ratio right. Having glowing eyes often obscures the problem but its always there.

Modifié par Garfuck, 04 décembre 2010 - 01:10 .

[shubnabub]

If you need more examples of custom crossed eyes just browse the faces on http://www.masseffect2faces.com/



@Zombie Chow

It would greatly interest me to see evidence that a custom face-morph can have normal eyes. Would you please upload pics of your custom female Shepard?

[Yabberkanaw]

I noticed this crossed eyes glitch every time I created a female Shepard with big eyes, along with the absence of eyelids when she's waking up at the beginning, in the Cerberus station under attack. My last female Shepard has oriental eyes, and she has normal eyelids and no crossed eyes. Anyway, I noticed some other glitches with eyes all along the game. All Asari people have an eye bigger than the other, many people in DLC's look stoned (in particular when they're looking at something lower than their eyes), and so on.

[Zombie Chow]

Sorry for my late reply, I know you've been monitoring this thread closely.

1st, thanks for going out of your way to post your Shepard.  I can see the effort and heart you bring to your RP.  I also think you designed a beautiful character, please share the code.  IMHO, the only times I think your character was cross-eyed was in your top-centre pic and the helmet (she looks like she's staring at the inside of her helmet).

2nd, now that you mentioned this issue, I took another look at the ME2 Faces site...and I do see it almost everywhere now.  I agree with Cirripuzo that it might be large eyes that causes this.  It seems like no matter the eye size or the distance between them, Shepard's pupils are still close to the centre of the face.

3rd, here's my humble Shepard as per your suggestion.  I didn't see her crossed eyes before, but that might be due to my lower standards.  However, I also noticed her hairstyle partially covers one eye, thus mitigating the effect.  Here, the top-centre picture is the most cross-eyed of the lot.  In the others, it varies...for example, the images on the right have her eyes a little apart like she's a chamaeleon or something.



3z2nyq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pfLwUnm_J7-2PhDYTSvvkLLsTe0a7z-_roMz5Fw1oOyL0RdKhzTPZ7GUv226wSfj3dUoF2zrsjh8nb2YkPKvWFXw-0OI6TYyu/Joan%20Shepard%20Faces.jpg

Oh, and in case you want to test it yourself, here's the face code:


741.19G.MA7.F8A.JDQ.64Q.1DA.711.966.414.4G3.176

Modifié par Zombie Chow, 02 décembre 2010 - 07:52 .

[shubnabub]

@Zombie Chow
I will test your code when I get home. 

It may be large eyes, but the eyes I use are the default ones. So...whatever that's worth.

I agree, that hair swoop may be a kind of visual misdirection (when I test I will test both ways, once with an unobstructed hair mesh and once with your exact hair). Because of that the only one where I can detect crossing is the top center one and even there the swoop makes it questionable. 

I would ask that you re-examine my bottom right image (the largest headshot). It's clear (to me) that one iris is centered and the other is rotated toward the nose when both should be centered. Also, on the top row, the pale eye-nose-mouth shot, her right eye is clearly (to me) looking in the wrong direction.

I will share the code if possible. Sometimes the code the game gives me isn't remotely correct for some reason.


@cirripuzzo

I too have noticed a lot of clipping when characters close their eyes (causing the eye ball to come through). 
I haven't noticed the Asari one eye being bigger than the other thing. I have noticed a lot of Asari tend to narrow one eye while opening the other wide and I'm never quite sure what emotion this is supposed to be conveying in context. When Liara did it in ME1 I found it kind of endearing and idiosyncratic. But seeing more Asari do it makes me wonder if its some bizarre Asari body language humans just don't pick up on. I only make that expression when I smell something breathtakingly bad or when something happens that stinks (like when an AI I just handed control of my ship to tells me she enjoys the sight of humans on their knees http://i.imgur.com/Q0Ssf.png *ba-doom-chee*). 


The fact that your Asian eyed Shep has no eye-crossing is interesting. I will certainly try that out at some point (curse this 15 minute intro!)

******

I wonder if more people aren't chiming in because this is one of those problems that once you see it, you can't un-see it and it can potentially sour future playthroughs.

Modifié par Garfuck, 02 décembre 2010 - 09:50 .

[shubnabub]

@Zombie Chow

Quick update. I just played through the opening (post resurrection of course) with your code. I changed the hair (to see more clearly) and I see that the problem is still there it just isn't as noticeable with pale green eyes. The red eyes actually make it worse, not better like I assumed (I'm an idiot, of course painting something bright red is going to make it stand out).

I could see how running through on paragon (or using the scar remover), your pale green natural eyes would make the problem less blatant and of course the hair swoop. Since the eyes I use are essentially black rimmed with red it makes them stand out harder.

But as you can see there is no difference in the placement of the eyes between our Shepards (animated gif for comparison).



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Now just for fun I googled and this is the first face that came up. Here's a nice comparison of some random normal guys eyes look like versus Shep's.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Modifié par Garfuck, 03 décembre 2010 - 01:36 .

[Zombie Chow]

This was a really interesting thread because, more than any other discussion in these Bioware forums, it completely 100% convinced me of something contrary to my initial beliefs. Thanks for your thorough experimentation and explanations, Gar****.

Looking at your gif, it's very obvious we have the exact same problem, largely because we both started with the default eye and nose. Maybe all that time looking at the sniper scope screwed up both our Shepard's eyes. I honestly don't remember how I designed this face, only that I modified the standard Jane Shepard portrait to better match how I visualised her voice.

I believe now it is all due to the impact of visual misdirection...that's the perfect phrase. I had an incredibly talented college intern who described his Photoshop secret in 2 Chinese words, "lie eye" or "lie to the eye", and I've never found a good translation until now. That's exactly what's happening here, with the swoop and eye colour, plus the headshot visor also obscures the problem.

Thus, the fix or workaround to this crossed-eye problem also seems to be the same types of visual misdirection. I actually played through with a Renegade version of this character, who was identitical except for having black hair and light brown eyes that were practically red. Even with the Renegade Evil Eye she seemed ok because of that swoop. I also agree with you that a different eye shape might diminish or remove the effect of the cross-eyed issue.

Gar**** wrote...

I wonder if more people aren't chiming in because this is one of those problems that once you see it, you can't un-see it and it can potentially sour future playthroughs.

That's exactly why I stayed quiet for a long and this is the second problem...it's not just Shepard's eyes, but what's in the player's mind.

On that issue, I'll just quote Mordin that it's 100 times the complexity to correct something within existing constraints...that's the problem here. But therein lies a fun challenge and it feels good to overcome it. There were similar problems with Bioware's Neverwinter Nights where certain design choices were better than ours, and once you know the tricks, it was sweet.

And that's what we're doing. I've been thinking about designing a new Renegade Shepard, Jean Shepard, an Adept based on Jean Grey in the X-Men films. I'll be taking all these ideas with me, but 1st, I got to figure out how to design Famke Janssen's gorgeous face within the limits of ME.

Modifié par Zombie Chow, 03 décembre 2010 - 02:51 .

[shubnabub]

 @Zombie Chow
Well, and here's the kicker, I did a quick run through of the first section with default fem-shep and her eyes are also turned in, just not as obviously as some others. 

This is clearly global (at least among female and custom Shepards) and not a problem carried over from the 1st ME. It's new to ME2. 

****************

I would like to have a game designer chime in on how hard it would be for Bioware to fix this and maybe their theory on why this problem exists in the first place. In my mind it might be fixed by changing the texture on the eye to compensate. If the irises are actually modeled it may be more complicated requiring re-rigging the animation skeletons which, I don't know, may be too intensive at this point to justify. But then, all I really want is a fix for the Shepards. The NPCs can keep their crossed eyes. Most importantly, this should not be carried over into ME3. Fix it before then at least.

I wonder, if it is an animation and rigging issue, how did the animators miss it? Did it look right until imported into the game itself? Did they just not notice? Or is this like a disgruntled animator's poorly executed revenge? Or maybe they were just distracted by Miranda's ass? Or did they only ever test the animations with default Shepard?

Every picture I see of default male-Shep he has proper eyes. But custom faces tend to be cross-eyed. And it isn't just a visual trick. The eyes are actually rotated in towards each other. Dubya, Tea, Eff.  

Edit - Groan. Time to start up a default male Shepard game and a custom male-Shep game to verify.

Modifié par Garfuck, 03 décembre 2010 - 08:41 .

[OBakaSama]

Oddly I've notice this problem too, and here I thought it was just me. Having said that though I play ME2 mainly on my 360, and I've noticed this problem with my FemSheps for a while. However, despite the effort of the developers spending a lot of time on the eyes I've always found the eyes in ME rather creepy and odd. That creepiness lessened in ME2 but then the constant cross-eyes is distracting. Even clipping isn't as bad.



Personally I've never noticed my MaleSheps have this problem.

[shubnabub]

@OBakaSama

I just ran through with default manShep and a custom manShep. Default has crossed eyes but his model compensates somewhat for it. Custom manShep definitely has crossed eyes but the narrowed male eye-sets obfuscate it.

I wonder if others wouldn't mind posting images of their character's crossed eyes?


Slightly crossed? I think so.


Definitely crossed.


Argue with that.

Modifié par Garfuck, 04 décembre 2010 - 01:26 .

[OBakaSama]

Pretty damning evidence I'd say. I'll keep...an eye...on that next time I play. (Sorry....)



I would say the second picture could suggest he's focusing on something. For me the most disturbing instances is when the eyes are not focused on the same object like the first and last of your post.



Or maybe when Cerberus brought Shepard back they mixed in chameleon DNA by accident....

[shubnabub]

 Or...the Reapers have somehow infected the entire gallery with some Strabismus causing virus. With crossed eyes you can't see stereoscopically (the source of depth perception) because you can't merge the disparate images, so no one in the galaxy can see just how close the Reapers are to returning.

Modifié par Garfuck, 04 décembre 2010 - 09:14 .

[OBakaSama]

Maybe this is what a certain Turian Councillor suffers from...

[Zombie Chow]

I'm playing with a Default Male Appearance Shepard now. It's less noticeable with him, but it does show up when he's angry I think.

While I do find this crossed-eyes to be a universal issue, it's not always a constant issue. Certain expressions seem to create the problem.



3z2nyq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pZVgzZYK8cHvnPvs1683SzW4nSTQEEUfrT1qrKPFJ0x7OTIJVn2x_mHPWLRxGr2uNE-Ows4SHKeMfFLXDLZDztiV3M6e5sA4a/MassEffect2%202010-12-04%2022-42-48-36.jpg

I just went to my screenshots folder once more. This was the most cross-eyed pic of Default Male Shep I had, BUT I noticed a instances in-game where it was obvious (almost always when he was angrily staring at someone close).

However, this pic looks like there could have been either minor bugs. Notice his right iris looks a little smaller than the left. I'll see if I get more of this with all his close-ups later in-game.

[shubnabub]

@Zombie Chow



Oh, excellent. It's not the worst but it's still quite awkward looking. I've sent a link to this thread to several bioware designers (expecting no response). Trying to figure out who to send it to...

[Big stupid jellyfish]

Finally someone was able to notice there is a problem.



It seems that yes, several facial expressions tend to reveal this more while in several scenes eyes look ok or almost ok so that you don't notice something is wrong. I had to actually photoshop several screenshots because of this.

[shubnabub]

Big stupid jellyfish wrote...

Finally someone was able to notice there is a problem.

It seems that yes, several facial expressions tend to reveal this more while in several scenes eyes look ok or almost ok so that you don't notice something is wrong. I had to actually photoshop several screenshots because of this.

It can definitely mess up a good screenshot. But I find my problem is its persistence. 

[shubnabub]

I've run out of stuff to say about this so this it. I hope we see this is fixed by ME3 at least.

Modifié par Garfuck, 09 décembre 2010 - 10:49 .