934 réponses à ce sujet

[Atakuma]

Even if the armor was intact it would still be unrealistic to be able to equip it unless you had to take it to a smith to get it re sized every time, which IMO would be pretty tedious.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Just because loot doesn't make realistic sense, that doesn't mean that wearing no armour is. It just means that you can't wear looted armour.

[Ziggeh]

It's not so much that one leads to the other, but that we accept abstractions in almost all areas of the game.

[Atakuma]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

It's not so much that one leads to the other, but that we accept abstractions in almost all areas of the game.

Exactly. I just dont understand all this selective realism.

Modifié par Atakuma, 30 novembre 2010 - 04:23 .

[Ziggeh]

Atakuma wrote...

Exactly. I just dont understand all this selective realism.

I can understand it, especially if you're deeply interested in armour as a few people here clearly are. I have a number of pet peeves myself (health potions always annoy me), but I just assume they're mine and the game probably has other considerations.

[Aermas]

Chain is roughly one size fits all, along with scale. Ridged leather can have it's straps lengthened or shortened (not hard to do) You'll end up with slightly larger or smaller area's of coverage but at least you aren't unarmored.

[Johnny Chaos]

i want some some ****ing samuri armor................................. yea boyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[Ziggeh]

I mean, they've got to be magical, right? Yet any chimpanzee with the right ingredients can make them. And it's not like those ingredients are in short supply. So why doesn't everyone have them? Why doesn't it take half an hour to wear through each humanoids personal supply before they'll finally succumb, a point at which they're presumably more magical scar material than person.

[Aermas]

Johnny Chaos wrote...

i want some some ****ing samuri armor................................. yea boyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Samurai Armor is crap, it's mostly made of wood & the stylization leaves you vulnerable in battle. Plus ascetically it's dumb:whistle:

[Piecake]

I want arseless chaps. Cant go wrong with more arseless chaps.

[Sir JK]

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Taking a few seconds to put on better armor on your pary members is not an inconvience. Well, maybe it is for twitchy console players who aren't really into rpgs but even then most of them would still like to find and play with the better loot. If that is an inconvience then do away with stores to because shopping would be an inconvience as well.

Sorry I was unclear with that one. It explains why we can equip armour despite point 2 and 3. In order not to inconvenience us we thus does not have to find a perfect fit, armour cannot break and so on. The entire system is made easier and simplified to accomodate us all. It is not those "twitchy console players" the system is simplified for... it's "us rpg players".

Eh, some would be, some not. But armor can be repaired. And any warrior would be somewhat skilled at repairing his gear.

Your argument works against a non player character always wearing the same suit of armor. His armor would become dented, ect in battle to. If looted armor can't be repaired neither can the suits the non-player party members are wearing.

Correct. But that they head to a tailor/armour smith to have their outfit repaired when they visit a town is not farfetched. The problem with looting someone else's armour is that you'd have to haul it in addition to your own to get it repaired. That's an extra 10-40 kg to carry. Not to mention it would cost money.

Then there will be no armor sold in the stores, right?  Since it is all unusable unless custom made for someone.

In medieval times only military commanders and high ranking knights wore custom made armor.

Correct. There weren't any armour and weapon general stores. Everything was preordered and made according to specifications. Most armour and weapon smiths were employed by the nobility to make armour for their troops as well. So they wouldn't even have shops available to the common man.
If you were a person that needed armour then you'd either be rich enough to afford it or your liege would pay for it for you.

Armor can't be both extemely rare and not rare. If it is so rare that companions can't use it then it is too rare for the player to use. And again, I'd be willing to bet there will be lots of armor in stores.

The key in your paragraph was "theme" In other words, there is no actual reason in the game world for the decision.

As I said... that's where point 1 comes in. We are given so much access to cheap weapons and armour in order not to inconvenience us. Allowing us not to worry that we're never going to be able to afford good armour or not to have to go into someone else's employ to get it. Not forcing us to search for the rare few individuals that would actually know the craft. It's abstracted... for our convenience as players.

I'm not saying that companions cannot or shouldn't use it. I'm just saying that it's perfectly reasonable not to start with it. No more, no less (that I'm saying that is).

Atakuma wrote...
Even if the armor was intact it would still be unrealistic to be able to
equip it unless you had to take it to a smith to get it re sized every
time, which IMO would be pretty tedious.

Exactly. This is precisely my point. And this gets abstracted for us players to avoid that tedium. But if companion outfit is fixed it should be based on the setting and not mechanics which means that the need for the abstraction vanishes. And as such the possibility to equip any armour does not exist for them.

Sylvius the mad wrote...
Just because loot doesn't make realistic sense, that doesn't mean that
wearing no armour is. It just means that you can't wear looted armour.

Exactly. This is what I'm arguing. These characters have no in-setting means of acquiring any armour short of ordering it from an armoursmith. So them not having any at the start of the game or when meeting you is perfectly sensible.

Aermas wrote...
Chain is roughly one size fits all...

From experience I can tell you, this is not true. It fits you, yes. But it does not fit you well. So you end up carrying the whole thing with only your shoulders. Which is what a proper fit is designed to avoid. Same with scales.

Modifié par Sir JK, 30 novembre 2010 - 04:50 .

[Piecake]

Aermas wrote...

Johnny Chaos wrote...

i want some some ****ing samuri armor................................. yea boyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Samurai Armor is crap, it's mostly made of wood & the stylization leaves you vulnerable in battle. Plus ascetically it's dumb:whistle:

I find that hard to believe, especially since Japan's metalurgy technology was more advanced than medieval Europe's. 

[Aermas]

It's all about the way they were trained to fight, the east practiced one hit one kill, so they made swords like razors (high cutting power low blade durability) & didn't focus on armor.



By the Way: A cool fact to know Middle Eastern Metallurgy was the most advanced

[Piecake]

Aermas wrote...

It's all about the way they were trained to fight, the east practiced one hit one kill, so they made swords like razors (high cutting power low blade durability) & didn't focus on armor.

By the Way: A cool fact to know Middle Eastern Metallurgy was the most advanced

You generalize way too much, so I really cant take your first claim seriously without any real historical sources

[Aermas]

I generalize so that people won't debate one aspect to the point of oblivion.

All the other info I can give proof of, as for the samurai info I cannot say I'm 100% accurate (as I'm heavily bias towards European styles) & I don't care to investigate.

Modifié par Aermas, 30 novembre 2010 - 05:16 .

[Sir JK]

Piecake. Japans metalurgy was not superior to mediveal europe. The most bought material in Nanjima outpost (island of foreigners, where the international trade was conducted with the portugese and the dutch during the isolation) was french steel.

The most superior steel was wootz, also known as Damascus or Toledo steel. It came from India, but was often processed in the arabic world (hence Damascus and Toledo). When the mines that prvided wootz dried out the steel vanished. Not even today can we replicate true wootz.

Second in quality was the french steel, which was so common and cheap in comparion to wootz that it became a favourite among the turks and saracens during the crusades. It was later this that became one of the few imports the japanese and chinese would do. It was vastly superior to the local steels.

Anyways... back on topic.

[Piecake]

Aermas wrote...

I generalize so that people won't debate one aspect to the point of oblivion.

All the other info I can give proof of, as for the samurai info I cannot say I'm 100% accurate (as I'm heavily bias towards European styles) & I don't care to investigate.

You should change that tactic because that is a horrible way to debate, especially when you are debating history.  Specifics are key.  So, saying that, I can pretty much guarantee that you are wrong, since ts always a mistake to generalize a vast group of people, especially over a significant period of time. 

And I would say that, in general, China had the most advaned metallurgy technology. 

[Kroaks]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

I mean, they've got to be magical, right? Yet any chimpanzee with the right ingredients can make them. And it's not like those ingredients are in short supply. So why doesn't everyone have them? Why doesn't it take half an hour to wear through each humanoids personal supply before they'll finally succumb, a point at which they're presumably more magical scar material than person.

Well; conceptually they seem to heal you totally, no scar tissue or anything, it just "magically" reknits itself back together or some variation of that theme.

But yeah; in a more "real world" scenario, having to use one everytime you were lethally stabbed would make you run out pretty quick if your surrounded or against somebody way better than you etc....

And they generally don't seem to work against poison or disease so infection could still get you, I mean they would heal you but the infection and the poison would still be there though I suppose if you were lucky using potions to constantly heal damage from the infection might make it so your body could either fight off the infection or process the poison out I guess but that would technically be your body doing it and not the potions themselves.

Another limitation is you have to drink it "post" the damage and depending on how damaged you are thats not always feasible.

Also; alot of times they are in some pretty big bottles relatively speaking I mean not huge but like win bottles or something and you have to drink all of one potion to get the effect.

Its definately something a "hard" or "nightmare" setting should take into effect, the various minions etc....all having their own personal share of healing potions etc.....I can see why the darkspawn wouldn't seeing as how animalistic they can be but the various thieves, soldiers etc....should.

At least if they can reasonably expect to be in battle.

[Piecake]

Sir JK wrote...

Piecake. Japans metalurgy was not superior to mediveal europe. The most bought material in Nanjima outpost (island of foreigners, where the international trade was conducted with the portugese and the dutch during the isolation) was french steel.

The most superior steel was wootz, also known as Damascus or Toledo steel. It came from India, but was often processed in the arabic world (hence Damascus and Toledo). When the mines that prvided wootz dried out the steel vanished. Not even today can we replicate true wootz.

Second in quality was the french steel, which was so common and cheap in comparion to wootz that it became a favourite among the turks and saracens during the crusades. It was later this that became one of the few imports the japanese and chinese would do. It was vastly superior to the local steels.

Anyways... back on topic.

Thats early modern, not medieval

[Ziggeh]

Kroaks wrote...

Well; conceptually they seem to heal you totally, no scar tissue or anything, it just "magically" reknits itself back together or some variation of that theme.

I presume it acts like some sort of localised time travel, returning you to the state you were prior to drinking. I have to wonder how much you need to chug back before you get to play chuck berry songs at your parents prom.

[Sir JK]

What's really scary is that they're named poultice and not potion. So it's a type of salve and not something you drink.



Anyways: Armours. Companions not begining with them due to not having the means to get them. Very plausible.

[Aermas]

Piecake wrote...

Aermas wrote...

I generalize so that people won't debate one aspect to the point of oblivion.

All the other info I can give proof of, as for the samurai info I cannot say I'm 100% accurate (as I'm heavily bias towards European styles) & I don't care to investigate.

You should change that tactic because that is a horrible way to debate, especially when you are debating history.  Specifics are key.  So, saying that, I can pretty much guarantee that you are wrong, since ts always a mistake to generalize a vast group of people, especially over a significant period of time. 

And I would say that, in general, China had the most advaned metallurgy technology. 

Well to be fair I began debating about armor, which does need a lot of generalization because of the uniqueness of the craft. I offered to give proof to that, & admitted I have a limited knowledge of Asian armor. I didn't think it would be a big deal, if you want me to I can be much more literal.

[Ziggeh]

Sir JK wrote...

What's really scary is that they're named poultice and not potion. So it's a type of salve and not something you drink.

I have the same problem with bandages in WoW. The idea that no matter how damaged you become, stuffing more cloth in to stop the bleeding will fix it.

[David Gaider]

Atakuma wrote...
Exactly. I just dont understand all this selective realism.

Because it makes some people feel better to denounce something they don't like as being objectively unrealistic than to simply say that it's beyond the realm of what they personally are willing to accept in a game.

[Atakuma]

David Gaider wrote...

Atakuma wrote...
Exactly. I just dont understand all this selective realism.

Because it makes some people feel better to denounce something they don't like as being objectively unrealistic than to simply say that it's beyond the realm of what they personally are willing to accept in a game.

I now consider myself enlightened.

Modifié par Atakuma, 30 novembre 2010 - 05:47 .