934 réponses à ce sujet

[bzombo]

this whole argument seems silly on both sides. if the pc can wear armor, then the npcs should wear it too. that would be consistent. saying that since the game is fantasy there doesn't have to be any realism is just as silly. bioware COULD make a game with flying turds in pajamas fighting dragons on horseback, but that would be stupid. just because you can do something doesn't mean it makes sense to do it and we all have to hold hands and be enlightened hippies who accept everything thrown our way.

[Piecake]

Archereon wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Ulous wrote...
As I said earlier in the thread, people are not content with just offering up an opinion, they have to try putting weight behind the opinion with nonsense like "realism" and "simulation", even then they only use it when is suits their own personal preference.

Or it could be they aren't as much trying to put weight, but just explain why their preference goes this way and not another.

No, he's actually completely right. DA:O was 100% unrealistic, and so shall DA][ be 100% unrealistic. The application of "realism" is nothing but a strawman. There never was any to begin with.

Really?  I was under the impression that gravity exists in Thedas, and for all intents and purposes, behaves like real world gravity.

While "realism" in
a fantasy game isn't all that important, internal consistency, and a
reasonable representation of mundane elements (for example, gravity)
that aren't deliberately stylized is.  To what extent mundane elements
should be stylized is the real debate here.

a 100% unrealistic game sounds interesting and quite difficult to do.  I'm not sure how that would actually work, but someone, get on it!

[the_one_54321]

tmp7704 wrote...
What i did say was, claiming either of these changes isn't a big deal would require to intentionally ignore that to part of playerbase such change is in fact "a big deal" due to their individual preferences towards the element which is being removed. Something you admit yourself, when you say " I know that a lot of the players here like to make choices" etc.

Well sure, I know it's a big deal to them. That doesn't mean I'm going to roll over and concede when they start making ludicrous exclamations like "I can't believe they're removing all this ability to choose from the game!" 

Picking an outfit for your companions does not effect gameplay at all.

[Ryzaki]

That said does Hawke at least get an iconic outfit? I mean if everyone else can run around in unique clothes Hawke should be able to as well. And at least it would be somewhat consistent.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:11 .

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
You can't be that thickheaded. It may be a choice you don't care for but it's still a choice.

No, I'm not. I know exactly what you're saying. What I'm saying is that it is an instance of pointless semantics. Sometiems semantics matter. In this particular instance, they don't.

Choosing your class, your skills, your stats, all effect how the game is played.

Choosing what outfit your companions are wearing, again, doesn't effect how the game is played at all.

[Piecake]

Ryzaki wrote...

That said doe sHawke at least get an iconic outfit? I mean if everyone else can run around in unique clothes Hawke should be able to as well.

nope, but i guess you could consider the 'best' armor his iconic outfit

[Drasanil]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

You do realise how many RPGs there have been (and will be) that don't let you choose your race or background, right? I'm not saying it wasn't a blow that I couldn't play as a Dwarf again, I think they're great, but it's hardly the end of the world and it doesn't mean that customisation won't be a big part of DA2.

Indeed, I realise it's the majority of RPGs do this. Which is why I'm rather unhappy DA2 is taking the same route, there are already plenty of RPGs with fixed characters and "no choices necessary we made them for you!" which is part of what made DAO fun.

[lv12medic]

Ryzaki wrote...

That said does Hawke at least get an iconic outfit? I mean if everyone else can run around in unique clothes Hawke should be able to as well. And at least it would be somewhat consistent.

If there is one, it'll most likely be the trailer armor.  The Maker(s) said it exists in game apparently.

[Archereon]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
No, he's actually completely right. DA:O was 100% unrealistic, and so shall DA][ be 100% unrealistic. The application of "realism" is nothing but a strawman. There never was any to begin with.

Really?  I was under the impression that gravity exists in Thedas, and for all intents and purposes, behaves like real world gravity.

While "realism" in
a fantasy game isn't all that important, internal consistency, and a
reasonable representation of mundane elements (for example, gravity)
that aren't deliberately stylized is.  To what extent mundane elements
should be stylized is the real debate here.

Interesting that you bring that up. Actually, gravity doesn't exist in Thedas the way it exists as we understand gravity in real life. In Thedas you can enter The Fade where gravity seems to be subjectively random.

You do realize the fade is IN YOUR HEAD?

(sort of...You know, being a dream realm)

And besides, the fade is neither part of Thedas, nor a mundane element.  In fact, its CLEARLY a supernatural element.

[Maria Caliban]

You know what I've always thought was an unrecognized RPG? Black and White.

Archereon wrote...

You do realize the fade is IN YOUR HEAD?

(sort of...You know, being a dream realm)

And besides, the fade is neither part of Thedas, nor a mundane element.  In fact, its CLEARLY a supernatural element.

Your mind can enter the Fade and in Thedas that's a dream, but the realm doesn't exist 'in your head' anymore than mundane reality does. And it's part of Thedas, it's simply a part that you can't usually perceive while you're awake.

Places like the Anvil and the Sacred Ashes mountain (forgot the name) exist because the veil has weakened and the elements can interact more freely.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:20 .

[the_one_54321]

Archereon wrote...
You do realize the fade is IN YOUR HEAD?

(sort of...You know, being a dream realm)

And besides, the fade is neither part of Thedas, nor a mundane element.  In fact, its CLEARLY a supernatural element.

But you can still die there. Also, the existence of magic is evidence that that standard rules of physics will not always apply.

People are able to convince themselves that there is realism in games because of the visual similarities. But in games like DA:O the examples of how there is no realism at all are very very numerous.

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
You can't be that thickheaded. It may be a choice you don't care for but it's still a choice.

No, I'm not. I know exactly what you're saying. What I'm saying is that it is an instance of pointless semantics. Sometiems semantics matter. In this particular instance, they don't.

Choosing your class, your skills, your stats, all effect how the game is played.

Choosing what outfit your companions are wearing, again, doesn't effect how the game is played at all.

If it affects visuals and the game is a visual medium...

I mean honesty.

[Xewaka]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Well sure, I know it's a big deal to them. That doesn't mean I'm going to roll over and concede when they start making ludicrous exclamations like "I can't believe they're removing all this ability to choose from the game!" 

Picking an outfit for your companions does not effect gameplay at all.

Different outfits are usually visual cues of gear progression. So it does have a minor effect in gameplay. Even if it is only to visually reward the player for his achievements in-game.

[Ryzaki]

lv12medic wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

That said does Hawke at least get an iconic outfit? I mean if everyone else can run around in unique clothes Hawke should be able to as well. And at least it would be somewhat consistent.

If there is one, it'll most likely be the trailer armor.  The Maker(s) said it exists in game apparently.

But I want him to wear it all the time.

How is it iconic if he only wears it at the last part of the game?

[Addai]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
You can't be that thickheaded. It may be a choice you don't care for but it's still a choice.

No, I'm not. I know exactly what you're saying. What I'm saying is that it is an instance of pointless semantics. Sometiems semantics matter. In this particular instance, they don't.

Choosing your class, your skills, your stats, all effect how the game is played.

Choosing what outfit your companions are wearing, again, doesn't effect how the game is played at all.

I'm getting really tired of pointing out to you that something is not "pointless" simply because you assert, really really confidently, that it is.

[Archereon]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Archereon wrote...
You do realize the fade is IN YOUR HEAD?

(sort of...You know, being a dream realm)

And besides, the fade is neither part of Thedas, nor a mundane element.  In fact, its CLEARLY a supernatural element.

But you can still die there. Also, the existence of magic is evidence that that standard rules of physics will not always apply.

People are able to convince themselves that there is realism in games because of the visual similarities. But in games like DA:O the examples of how there is no realism at all are very very numerous.

Except in the case of the awakenings fade segment and the one in Redcliffe, "dying" in the fade being your demise is justified.  You know, because dying in the fade is failing your harrowing, and that means your soul gets consumed by a demonic entitiy from the fade, one of the other clearly supernatural elements of the game.  Similarly, the fade in the circle tower has the sloth demon draining your life away, also a supernatural element.

What's not at all supernatural is how your characters don't just randomly go flying off into the distance...
[Captain] !!!GRAVITY!!!

Also, what is not supernatural is the fact that your characters DON'T have hair and eyes colored like the rainbow...OOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHOOOOOO!

Modifié par Archereon, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:19 .

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
If it affects visuals and the game is a visual medium...

I mean honesty.

You're trying to sound clever but, from where I'm sitting at least, it's not working.
The issue of the stylistic visual differences between DA:O and DA][ are a whole other can of giant subjective flesh eating worms.

The notion brought up above that the visual cues count as a minor indicator of progress was much better founded. But I would still say that this is marginal in comparison to the actual numerical effects seen in combat.

[Stazro]

Archereon wrote...

Really?  I was under the impression that gravity exists in Thedas, and for all intents and purposes, behaves like real world gravity.

While "realism" in
a fantasy game isn't all that important, internal consistency, and a
reasonable representation of mundane elements (for example, gravity)
that aren't deliberately stylized is.  To what extent mundane elements
should be stylized is the real debate here.

This. The term is "fantastic realism". In a world where it is possible to magically summon flames, a fireball spell is realistic. In world where steel weapons can hardly damage human skin, not wearing heavy armor in the heat of battle is realistic. However, in a world where steel weapons cause serious damage to humans it is not.

Edit: This thread is expanding damn fast...

Modifié par Stazro, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:19 .

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
If it affects visuals and the game is a visual medium...

I mean honesty.

You're trying to sound clever but, from where I'm sitting at least, it's not working.
The issue of the stylistic visual differences between DA:O and DA][ are a whole other can of giant subjective flesh eating worms.

The notion brought up above that the visual cues count as a minor indicator of progress was much better founded. But I would still say that this is marginal in comparison to the actual numerical effects seen in combat.

Honestly one you're being ridculously bullheaded.

I'm arguing that it's a choice that's being taken away and you're insisting that because you don't care it doesn't matter.

That's not the case.

[the_one_54321]

Addai67 wrote...
I'm getting really tired of pointing out to you that something is not "pointless" simply because you assert, really really confidently, that it is.

And I'm getting tired of pointing out that just because you care about something doesn't mean it has much of any effect on how the game plays.

[Archereon]

Stazro wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Really?  I was under the impression that gravity exists in Thedas, and for all intents and purposes, behaves like real world gravity.

While "realism" in
a fantasy game isn't all that important, internal consistency, and a
reasonable representation of mundane elements (for example, gravity)
that aren't deliberately stylized is.  To what extent mundane elements
should be stylized is the real debate here.

This. The term is "fantastic realism". In a world where it is possible to magically summon flames, a fireball spell is realistic. In world where steel weapons can hardly damage human skin, not wearing heavy armor in the heat of battle is realistic. However, in a world where steel weapons cause serious damage to humans it is not.

Edit: This thread is expanding damn fast...

The "steel" harming skin thing is a clear example of gameplay-story segregation.

From the numerous cutscenes of people (notably Loghain) being cut down with a single blow from these puny steel weapons, I can say that steel weapons definately are harmful in Thedas.

[tmp7704]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Picking an outfit for your companions does not effect gameplay at all.

Granted, but did anyone actually make an argument that it does? Or said anything about the gameplay at all? Because i don't see why you'd want to bring it up otherwise...

[FuturePasTimeCE]

"i fight naked all the time... " Survivalist Shepard

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm arguing that it's a choice that's being taken away and you're insisting that because you don't care it doesn't matter.

That's not the case.

Bogus. Now you're putting words in my mouth.

What I am saying is that this "choice" doesn't effect how the game is played at all and that the folks who don't like the loss of "choice" should stop trying to conjecture that it does.

It doesn't matter because it doesn't change the mechanics. The effects or armor customiztion/choice/whathaveyou are all still in the game. You just can't change what outfit the NPCs are wearing.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ryzaki wrote...

lv12medic wrote...

If there is one, it'll most likely be the trailer armor.  The Maker(s) said it exists in game apparently.

But I want him to wear it all the time.

How is it iconic if he only wears it at the last part of the game?

Exactly.

If all of the other characters can progress statistically while wearing an identical outfit, then Hawke should be able to do exactly the same thing.

I would hope that we get to choose which outfit that is, but changing during the game shouldn't be mandatory for Hawke if it's actually forbidden for the companions.