934 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

tmp7704 wrote...
Granted, but did anyone actually make an argument that it does? Or said anything about the gameplay at all? Because i don't see why you'd want to bring it up otherwise...

Oh they most certainly have conjectured exactly that. Not in terms of the numbers or the specific mechanics. But the way they are riling over this "loss of choice" you'd think that BioWare had broken the game altogether.

How hard is it to simply say "I want to be able to change my companions cloths" and leave it at that without trying to imply that you now have significantly less of a game just because you can't change thier cloths.

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm arguing that it's a choice that's being taken away and you're insisting that because you don't care it doesn't matter.

That's not the case.

Bogus. Now you're putting words in my mouth.

What I am saying is that this "choice" doesn't effect how the game is played at all and that the folks who don't like the loss of "choice" should stop trying to conjecture that it does.

It doesn't matter because it doesn't change the mechanics. The effects or armor customiztion/choice/whathaveyou are all still in the game. You just can't change what outfit the NPCs are wearing.

And yes it does affect the game. Visually. But since you're going to keep insisting it doesn't I have nothing left to say to you.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:25 .

[Stazro]

Archereon wrote...
I can say that steel weapons definately are harmful in Thedas.

Yes. And fantastic realism says that people in Thedas will choose to protect themselves from that harm. In a different realm it might not be necessary, but in Thedas it obviously is.

Modifié par Stazro, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:27 .

[Ryzaki]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

lv12medic wrote...

If there is one, it'll most likely be the trailer armor.  The Maker(s) said it exists in game apparently.

But I want him to wear it all the time.

How is it iconic if he only wears it at the last part of the game?

Exactly.

If all of the other characters can progress statistically while wearing an identical outfit, then Hawke should be able to do exactly the same thing.

I would hope that we get to choose which outfit that is, but changing during the game shouldn't be mandatory for Hawke if it's actually forbidden for the companions.

It really shouldn't.

I would also hope w get a choice of otfits but yes. Changing armor when the other companions don't will be somewhat odd to say the least.

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...
And yes it does affect the game. Visually. But since you're going to keep insisting it doesn't I have nothing left to say to you.

Well of course it effects the game visually. This is another example of pointless semantics.
What it doesn't effect is how you play the game. You still make all manner of customization choices for the NPCs gear. They just don't look different after you do it.

[mokponobi]

It seems to me that the decision for companions to have static armor has already been made and is not going to be changed.



Let's play the game, then we can talk about whether that was a good decision or not after we've experienced it first hand.

[Qset]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I'm getting really tired of pointing out to you that something is not "pointless" simply because you assert, really really confidently, that it is.

And I'm getting tired of pointing out that just because you care about something doesn't mean it has much of any effect on how the game plays.

my guess is that your definition of "gameplay" and other peoples is different. please enlighten us with your definition so we can at least talk from the same basis. I am suggesting you start with the definition since you were the first to use the "does't change gameplay argument"

From my point of view, not being able to change companion outfits is not a huge deal for me as long as I can apply the same amount of companion stats modification by changing outfits as I could do in DAO. The jury is still out in this respect - I await dev input and some demo gameplay to answer this.

I appreciate why they have decided to have fixed outfits from a game development, cinematics and even iconic marketing aspects - if I see a pile of outfit DLC soon after launch though I might begin to question those dev made reasons

[the_one_54321]

Stazro wrote...

Archereon wrote...
I can say that steel weapons definately are harmful in Thedas.

Yes. And fantastic realism says that people in Thedas will choose to protect themselves from that harm. In a different realm it might not be necessary, but in Thedas it obviously is.

Because no one in Thedas has worn leather tank tops and mini skirts as armor....

Oh, and lets not forget the colar either! 

[Archereon]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm arguing that it's a choice that's being taken away and you're insisting that because you don't care it doesn't matter.

That's not the case.

Bogus. Now you're putting words in my mouth.

What I am saying is that this "choice" doesn't effect how the game is played at all and that the folks who don't like the loss of "choice" should stop trying to conjecture that it does.

It doesn't matter because it doesn't change the mechanics. The effects or armor customiztion/choice/whathaveyou are all still in the game. You just can't change what outfit the NPCs are wearing.

Choices in Bioware games have always been exagerated.  Considering they generally have litearally no effect on gameplay, at all, and the most significant of them are found in the ending, its quite accurate, in my opinion, to say choices in Bioware games, and really all other "choice" games are irrelevant if you don't care about the story.  They don't allow for "choice mini-maxing" to any significant degree (something that I fear will be the bane of the new KoTOR if they're serious about allowing player choice to a degree, since MMO-players are some of the worst offenders of "mini-maxing" and such things, and really don't give a crap about story)

But I, for one, care quite a bit about the story.  Loosing the choices, superficial as they may be, particularly the ending choices, is a great loss for me indeed.  While I do agree that most of the doomsayers are jumping the gun on the story, I'm still a bit worried.  

[the_one_54321]

Qset wrote...
my guess is that your definition of "gameplay" and other peoples is different. please enlighten us with your definition so we can at least talk from the same basis. I am suggesting you start with the definition since you were the first to use the "does't change gameplay argument"

Gameplay is playing the game. Using the characters to do things. Fighting, sneaking, breaking, persuading, or whatever. Changing outfits is as much playing a game as playing The Sims is playing a game.

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Qset wrote...
my guess is that your definition of "gameplay" and other peoples is different. please enlighten us with your definition so we can at least talk from the same basis. I am suggesting you start with the definition since you were the first to use the "does't change gameplay argument"

Gameplay is playing the game. Using the characters to do things. Fighting, sneaking, breaking, persuading, or whatever. Changing outfits is as much playing a game as playing The Sims is playing a game.

You can't be serious.

[Addai]

the_one_54321 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
Granted, but did anyone actually make an argument that it does? Or said anything about the gameplay at all? Because i don't see why you'd want to bring it up otherwise...

Oh they most certainly have conjectured exactly that. Not in terms of the numbers or the specific mechanics. But the way they are riling over this "loss of choice" you'd think that BioWare had broken the game altogether.

How hard is it to simply say "I want to be able to change my companions cloths" and leave it at that without trying to imply that you now have significantly less of a game just because you can't change thier cloths.

And how hard is it for you to acknowledge that what is important to you in a game is not necessarily a factor or the biggest factor for others?

At this point I have to conclude that you don't want to understand another POV, so there's no point going around the circle once again.

[Xewaka]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Because no one in Thedas has worn leather tank tops and mini skirts as armor....

Oh, and lets not forget the colar either!

Yes, and the people who dressed that way got spanked twice in different wars and have to live in the wilds, hiding in trees. That tells us something.

[the_one_54321]

Archereon wrote...
But I, for one, care quite a bit about the story.  Loosing the choices, superficial as they may be, particularly the ending choices, is a great loss for me indeed.  While I do agree that most of the doomsayers are jumping the gun on the story, I'm still a bit worried.

I don't really see any issue in terms of the story either. If I did, I would be complaining as well.

The issue at hand right now is, quite literally, whether you can change your companions outfits. And that's it. Nothing else has been removed.

[Ryzaki]

Xewaka wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Because no one in Thedas has worn leather tank tops and mini skirts as armor....

Oh, and lets not forget the colar either!

Yes, and the people who dressed that way got spanked twice in different wars and have to live in the wilds, hiding in trees. That tells us something.

Good one! 

[the_one_54321]

Addai67 wrote...
And how hard is it for you to acknowledge that what is important to you in a game is not necessarily a factor or the biggest factor for others?

At this point I have to conclude that you don't want to understand another POV, so there's no point going
around the circle once again.

I understand that some people find it important. Haven't I said that more than once already? 
What is not acceptable is the constant suggestion that this change actually effects the way the game is played instead of just being a style that some people don't like. If they just said "I don't like this style" I wouldn't have said a word against them. But the "ZOMG BioWare is stripping choices from the game!!" is a bunch of balogna.

Xewaka wrote...
Yes, and the people who dressed that way got spanked twice in different wars and have to live in the wilds, hiding in trees. That tells us something.

I'm sure there were thousands of examples of someone saving Thedas from the blight with one or more characters dressed in leather tank tops and mini skirts.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:39 .

[Ryzaki]

Not really studded leather armor was much better and there was no leather tank top.

Then again I have been using the unisex leather armor mod because I thought the female leather armor was riduclous and idiotic. I had to force Leliana into some medium armor because I couldn't get over how stupid it looked.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:37 .

[the_one_54321]

Ryzaki wrote...


You can't be serious.

I most certainly can be. Playing dressup is playing dressup. Whether it's in DA:O, The Sims, or whatever other game lets you play dressup.

Ryzaki wrote...
Not really studded leather armor was much better and there was no leather tank top.

Sorry. Leather tank top with shoulder pads.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:37 .

[Ryzaki]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


You can't be serious.

I most certainly can be. Playing dressup is playing dressup. Whether it's in DA:O, The Sims, or whatever other game lets you play dressup.

Playing "dressup" in a game is still playing a game. <_<

[tmp7704]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Oh they most certainly have conjectured exactly that. Not in terms of the numbers or the specific mechanics. But the way they are riling over this "loss of choice" you'd think that BioWare had broken the game altogether.

Well, i don't know; to me riling over loss of choice seems to be accurate in the sense there is indeed lack of choice when it comes to companion visuals. At the same time it doesn't seem to imply that it somehow affects gameplay, as opposed to the visuals (which do get affected) I honestly never associated these complaints with gameplay in any way.

Could it be we are reading it different because say, you think gameplay is extremely important, and as such subconsciously translate/expect any argument regarding quality of the game to somewhat touch that subject?

How hard is it to simply say "I want to be able to change my companions cloths" and leave it at that without trying to imply that you now have significantly less of a game just because you can't change thier cloths.

But since you do realize (as you admitted yourself) that to these people being able to pick the visuals is source of enjoyment in the game, is it really a stretch to believe that with this aspect removed, the game can and does become less enjoyable for such person... and that it's completely unrelated to gameplay?

[crimzontearz]

David Gaider gracefully replied to my question in another thread that was closed down



He asked me a question and I did not get to answer him there so hopefully he will see my answer here.



No david, the lack of visual customization does not hinder gameplay BUT.....you did not answer my question. My question was "what is the gameplay reason behind static appearances" since it was hinted by you that there IS a gameplay reason. What you said to me was basically that the lack of such visual customization is not hindering gameplay,and you are right since we can still customize our companions with buffing items and upgrades that I am sure will match the complexity of armor sets and such.



But.....you did not give a gameplay reason for the lackof visual design. For instance, if the question had been "why are all sords shorter now visually?" And you answered "the gameplay reason is because 2hander warriors with AOE attacks were way overpowered so we reduced the size of the arc by reducing the size of the sword" then that would be a gameplay reason.



Thas said, snazzy design should not prevail over gameplay if it means gameplay is diminished, but you are assuring us it is not but it simply has changed venue through amulets, rings, runes and upgrades so I'm good.

[the_one_54321]

tmp7704 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
How hard is it to simply say "I want to be able to change my companions cloths" and leave it at that without trying to imply that you now have significantly less of a game just because you can't change thier cloths.

But since you do realize (as you admitted yourself) that to these people being able to pick the visuals is source of enjoyment in the game, is it really a stretch to believe that with this aspect removed, the game can and does become less enjoyable for such person... and that it's completely unrelated to gameplay?

How does this relate to making choices that effect the game? 
Where does the outfit you wear change how you're able to effectively stop the Blight? 
How does your NPC's outfits change your ability to become the Champion of  Kirkwall? 

I know they enjoy it. I know it's important to them. There is no need to try and argue that it has the same kind of effect on the game as things that can actually change the above.

[Addai]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
And how hard is it for you to acknowledge that what is important to you in a game is not necessarily a factor or the biggest factor for others?

At this point I have to conclude that you don't want to understand another POV, so there's no point going
around the circle once again.

I understand that some people find it important. Haven't I said that more than once already? 
What is not acceptable is the constant suggestion that this change actually effects the way the game is played instead of just being a style that some people don't like. If they just said "I don't like this style" I wouldn't have said a word against them. But the "ZOMG BioWare is stripping choices from the game!!" is a bunch of balogna.

If people are doing this, it's apparently based on some inaccurate or misunderstood comment by a dev.  I for one know that you will still have some control over companion stats.  Why you should be able to do that but not change their armor, I don't get, but that's another question.

But when you say that "it doesn't affect the way the game is played," that is not true in terms of player experience.  Choices are being taken away, in the name of streamlining or story necessity or whatever.  A lot of choices, it seems to me, but that is because I spent 10 seconds thinking about what rune to slap on a companion's weapon, and a great deal of time choosing which armors and weapon classes to give them.

[tmp7704]

crimzontearz wrote...

Thas said, snazzy design should not prevail over gameplay if it means gameplay is diminished, but you are assuring us it is not but it simply has changed venue through amulets, rings, runes and upgrades so I'm good.

If one actually wanted to go this route... it could be said that this particular change does affect the gameplay -- having three separate item slots instead of single coverall theoretically allow for more flexibility, as it's more likely to get the combination of bonuses one wants for their character through mix and match of (relatively) large set of generic items, than it's to find a single item in much smaller group of "outfits for X" that just happens to have everything you want on it.

[Addai]

the_one_54321 wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
How hard is it to simply say "I want to be able to change my companions cloths" and leave it at that without trying to imply that you now have significantly less of a game just because you can't change thier cloths.

But since you do realize (as you admitted yourself) that to these people being able to pick the visuals is source of enjoyment in the game, is it really a stretch to believe that with this aspect removed, the game can and does become less enjoyable for such person... and that it's completely unrelated to gameplay?

How does this relate to making choices that effect the game? 
Where does the outfit you wear change how you're able to effectively stop the Blight? 
How does your NPC's outfits change your ability to become the Champion of  Kirkwall? 

I know they enjoy it. I know it's important to them. There is no need to try and argue that it has the same kind of effect on the game as things that can actually change the above.

As one who often used sub-optimal equipment for appearance or roleplay purposes, I would rather ask what difference does it make if a fight takes 5 minutes longer and I have to down 3 more potions because my stats were off?  You're going to become Champion of Kirkwall one way or another.