934 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

Addai67 wrote...
But when you say that "it doesn't affect the way the game is played," that is not true in terms of player experience.  Choices are being taken away, in the name of streamlining or story necessity or whatever.  A lot of choices, it seems to me, but that is because I spent 10 seconds thinking about what rune to slap on a companion's weapon, and a great deal of time choosing which armors and weapon classes to give them.

That's true, but the only "choice" I've talked about so far was the way your companions will appear. Because that's the only "inventory" related choice that has been taken away.
And the important thing about that is that this "loss of choice" does not effect how you get from Point A to Point B in the game. All the mechanics remain as they would have, effecting the outcomes of situations int the game as they would have, except that the NPCs don't change in appearance.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:49 .

[Aermas]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
And how hard is it for you to acknowledge that what is important to you in a game is not necessarily a factor or the biggest factor for others?

At this point I have to conclude that you don't want to understand another POV, so there's no point going
around the circle once again.

I understand that some people find it important. Haven't I said that more than once already? 
What is not acceptable is the constant suggestion that this change actually effects the way the game is played instead of just being a style that some people don't like. If they just said "I don't like this style" I wouldn't have said a word against them. But the "ZOMG BioWare is stripping choices from the game!!" is a bunch of balogna.

Xewaka wrote...
Yes, and the people who dressed that way got spanked twice in different wars and have to live in the wilds, hiding in trees. That tells us something.

I'm sure there were thousands of examples of someone saving Thedas from the blight with one or more characters dressed in leather tank tops and mini skirts.

Stop being dense, please

Armor does have an effect on gameplay, it effects aggro, & reflects were you spent ability points

Also in Origins we were given certain options, in DA2 we no longer have those options. How is this not a loss?

& yes your choices did effect "gameplay" as you define it. Choosing to the Green Blade, choosing to be tutored by the Desire Demon, choosing to go on a quest, choosing to kill the templar in Denerim Market.

[Qset]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Qset wrote...
my guess is that your definition of "gameplay" and other peoples is different. please enlighten us with your definition so we can at least talk from the same basis. I am suggesting you start with the definition since you were the first to use the "does't change gameplay argument"

Gameplay is playing the game. Using the characters to do things. Fighting, sneaking, breaking, persuading, or whatever. Changing outfits is as much playing a game as playing The Sims is playing a game.

ok interesting, thank you for providing your definition of gameplay. Just going out on a limb here - my guess is you exclude quite a number of things from your definition of gameplay as I didn't see them listed or even covered in a generalised form that other might consider within that definition. I also find it interesting that you regard "The Sims" as not a computer game, am I correct there? If Sims is not a game, can you please explain what it is?

So, assuming your definition is exhaustive, you  the following from gameplay so I think I can see the disconnect here between your basis and that of the others.
character creation in all its aspects
Presentation of the visual and audio elements

There are quite a few other areas that are excluded as well but I am sure others can provide those

Modifié par Qset, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:50 .

[the_one_54321]

Aermas wrote...
Stop being dense, please

Armor does have an effect on gameplay, it effects aggro, & reflects were you spent ability points

Also in Origins we were given certain options, in DA2 we no longer have those options. How is this not a loss?

& yes your choices did effect "gameplay" as you define it. Choosing to the Green Blade, choosing to be tutored by the Desire Demon, choosing to go on a quest, choosing to kill the templar in Denerim Market.

None of that has gone away. You still have an inventory for the NPCs that effects their stats and performance. They just don't look different when you make changes to their gear.

[the_one_54321]

Qset wrote...
I also find it interesting that you regard "The Sims" as not a computer game, am I correct there? If Sims is not a game, can you please explain what it is?

The Sims most certainly is not a game. The Sims is at best an amusing time sink, at worst a complete waste of time. If you enjoy it, then for you it's an amusing time sink. If you enjoy it a lot then for you it's a very amusing time sink. Games have Point A and Point B. Goals. End points. I'm not even entirely sure that I'd call most MMOs games, except that they do seem to have goals and tentative end points, just that they never stop reappearing.

[Stazro]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Stazro wrote...

Archereon wrote...
I can say that steel weapons definately are harmful in Thedas.

Yes. And fantastic realism says that people in Thedas will choose to protect themselves from that harm. In a different realm it might not be necessary, but in Thedas it obviously is.

Because no one in Thedas has worn leather tank tops and mini skirts as armor....

Oh, and lets not forget the colar either! 

My point is that realism isn't invalid as an argument, just because it's a fantasy world. Of course there are different ways to protect yourself. But someone who is prone to take many blows will go for the strongest protection, in the real world and in Thedas, because the harmful effect of being hit with steel weapons is about the same in both worlds.

[Xewaka]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Xewaka wrote...
Yes, and the people who dressed that way got spanked twice in different wars and have to live in the wilds, hiding in trees. That tells us something.

I'm sure there were thousands of examples of someone saving Thedas from the blight with one or more characters dressed in leather tank tops and mini skirts.

I think you meant "despite one or more characters dressed in leather tank tops and miniskirts".

[tmp7704]

the_one_54321 wrote...

How does this relate to making choices that effect the game? 

Short answer -- it doesn't.

People aren't making such statement at all, they are simply upset that the game removes something they have used to enjoy. This is also why it's completely pointless to tell them that it doesn't affect the gameplay -- because their concern isn't with gameplay, but with getting less fun out of the game.

[Aermas]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Aermas wrote...
Stop being dense, please

Armor does have an effect on gameplay, it effects aggro, & reflects were you spent ability points

Also in Origins we were given certain options, in DA2 we no longer have those options. How is this not a loss?

& yes your choices did effect "gameplay" as you define it. Choosing to the Green Blade, choosing to be tutored by the Desire Demon, choosing to go on a quest, choosing to kill the templar in Denerim Market.

None of that has gone away. You still have an inventory for the NPCs that effects their stats and performance. They just don't look different when you make changes to their gear.

Stop being dense, pretty please?

You ignored all my points! If it helps I will itemize it for you!

Choices do effect gameplay, see the above for examples of said choices

Armor effects gameplay in the fact that specializing looks & the time spend to color co-ordinate my team, if I so choose.

Origins gave us options for who we are, I can no longer be Edgar Shortbeard, Dwarven Champion of Kirkwall, I am Eldrith Hawke, human Champion of Kirkwall.

[AlanC9]

Archereon wrote...

You know what's sad about this inventory debate?

Halo has more armor customization that Dragon Age 2 or mass effect 2, and more weapons than the latter.

Diablo has much more elaborate inventory than Dragon Age origins, and definitely will have more elaborate management than DA2.

There's something sad about that?

Note that ME2 has 22 weapons compared to Halo's 28, if we don't count paid DLC items. And of course, ME2 has general upgrades on top of that.

[the_one_54321]

Stazro wrote...
My point is that realism isn't invalid as an argument, just because it's a fantasy world. Of course there are different ways to protect yourself. But someone who is prone to take many blows will go for the strongest protection, in the real world and in Thedas, because the harmful effect of being hit with steel weapons is about the same in both worlds.

What you're talking about is the suspension of disbelief. And that is a quality that is personal, subjective and not to be applied as something that actually effects a game outside your own personal experience.

tmp7704 wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...
How does this relate to making choices that effect the game?

Short answer -- it doesn't.

People aren't making such statement at all, they are simply upset that the game removes something they have used to enjoy. This is also why it's completely pointless to tell them that it doesn't affect the gameplay -- because their concern isn't with gameplay, but with getting less fun out of the game.

The short answer was plenty.

Modifié par the_one_54321, 30 novembre 2010 - 09:00 .

[Archereon]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Qset wrote...
I also find it interesting that you regard "The Sims" as not a computer game, am I correct there? If Sims is not a game, can you please explain what it is?

The Sims most certainly is not a game. The Sims is at best an amusing time sink, at worst a complete waste of time. If you enjoy it, then for you it's an amusing time sink. If you enjoy it a lot then for you it's a very amusing time sink. Games have Point A and Point B. Goals. End points. I'm not even entirely sure that I'd call most MMOs games, except that they do seem to have goals and tentative end points, just that they never stop reappearing.

Lol.  You sir, have obviously never seen how elaborate some of the constructions players make. 

Honestly, the Sims is a sandbox game.  It gives you tools, and says "here, do with them what you will."

Now that's not what I want for Dragon Age, but customization is not exclusive to these "complete wastes of time." such as the sims.  In fact, I find it rather hypocrytical that Bioware will allow us to customize our character's faces, and, to an extent, their backstory (hopefully), but not what we wear.  (supposing that DA2 has moved over to a more ME2-esque, streamlined system of meaningless aestetics.)

[Aermas]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Qset wrote...
I also find it interesting that you regard "The Sims" as not a computer game, am I correct there? If Sims is not a game, can you please explain what it is?

The Sims most certainly is not a game. The Sims is at best an amusing time sink, at worst a complete waste of time. If you enjoy it, then for you it's an amusing time sink. If you enjoy it a lot then for you it's a very amusing time sink. Games have Point A and Point B. Goals. End points. I'm not even entirely sure that I'd call most MMOs games, except that they do seem to have goals and tentative end points, just that they never stop reappearing.

What the hell is Plants vs. Zombies then? Sims do have goals, my Sim needs to eat, hey I made a sammich! Hawke needs to be Champion, hey he killed some people! Not to mention the legitimate prefabricated goals that they include in the game.

[Qset]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
But when you say that "it doesn't affect the way the game is played," that is not true in terms of player experience.  Choices are being taken away, in the name of streamlining or story necessity or whatever.  A lot of choices, it seems to me, but that is because I spent 10 seconds thinking about what rune to slap on a companion's weapon, and a great deal of time choosing which armors and weapon classes to give them.

That's true, but the only "choice" I've talked about so far was the way your companions will appear. Because that's the only "inventory" related choice that has been taken away.
And the important thing about that is that this "loss of choice" does not effect how you get from Point A to Point B in the game. All the mechanics remain as they would have, effecting the outcomes of situations int the game as they would have, except that the NPCs don't change in appearance.

That has yet to be proven. We have been told that we can customise stats on the static outfits with rune type mechanics and we have been told that the outfits will get stat upgrades during the 10 year period. However, we do noy yet know if all of this will allow the same level of stat customisation that was available for companions in DAO. If it does - then fine, it is purely a cosmetic change that some folks put greater or less value on. Lets also remember here that Bioware must put high value on this cosmetic look since they are the one's driving this change.
 If DA2 ends up with less stat customisation compared to DAO then the change does in fact reduce choice by your own definition forgetting about your "dress up" argument.

Its a simple question for the dev team to answer, does this change reduce stat customisation of companions compared to DAO, a yes or no would suffice. Its the lack of this answer that is fuelling a lot of this discussion.

[Archereon]

AlanC9 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

You know what's sad about this inventory debate?

Halo has more armor customization that Dragon Age 2 or mass effect 2, and more weapons than the latter.

Diablo has much more elaborate inventory than Dragon Age origins, and definitely will have more elaborate management than DA2.

There's something sad about that?

Note that ME2 has 22 weapons compared to Halo's 28, if we don't count paid DLC items. And of course, ME2 has general upgrades on top of that.

When an RPG, a genre known for having some sort of meaningful inventory since the time of D&D, has fewer items compared to a shooter, now...That's just sad.

While Diablo is an RPG as well as a Hack and Slash, its interesting, to say the least how we associate "actiony" combat with streamlined, simplistic inventory.

[Qset]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Aermas wrote...
Stop being dense, please

Armor does have an effect on gameplay, it effects aggro, & reflects were you spent ability points

Also in Origins we were given certain options, in DA2 we no longer have those options. How is this not a loss?

& yes your choices did effect "gameplay" as you define it. Choosing to the Green Blade, choosing to be tutored by the Desire Demon, choosing to go on a quest, choosing to kill the templar in Denerim Market.

None of that has gone away. You still have an inventory for the NPCs that effects their stats and performance. They just don't look different when you make changes to their gear.

point me to a dev quote that says this please.

[the_one_54321]

Aermas wrote...
Stop being dense, pretty please?

You ignored all my points! If it helps I will itemize it for you!

Choices do effect gameplay, see the above for examples of said choices

Armor effects gameplay in the fact that specializing looks & the time spend to color co-ordinate my team, if I so choose.

Origins gave us options for who we are, I can no longer be Edgar Shortbeard, Dwarven Champion of Kirkwall, I am Eldrith Hawke, human Champion of Kirkwall.

What are you talking about? Really.
You have an inventory.
You can change equipment stats for Hawke and companions.
You can upgrade aromor and weapons.
The NPCs will not appear different when you do this.

None of that is in any way related to the  things you said in your first post. And in the post quoted here the only relation is that you're saying you want to be able to play dressup. Which itself doesn't actually relate to any of the things you said in your first post.

[fchopin]

To many posts to read so i would like to ask can we fight naked in DA2 or will we be forced to wear something?

[Qset]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Qset wrote...
I also find it interesting that you regard "The Sims" as not a computer game, am I correct there? If Sims is not a game, can you please explain what it is?

The Sims most certainly is not a game. The Sims is at best an amusing time sink, at worst a complete waste of time. If you enjoy it, then for you it's an amusing time sink. If you enjoy it a lot then for you it's a very amusing time sink. Games have Point A and Point B. Goals. End points. I'm not even entirely sure that I'd call most MMOs games, except that they do seem to have goals and tentative end points, just that they never stop reappearing.

Lol, I actually don't play The Sims myself - although my children enjoy it. I think we are converging on your definition of a game, if you would enjoy it, then its a game - if you regard it as pointless, a time sink or whatever its not. Excellent, we are really making progress today

[AlanC9]

Aermas wrote...
Origins gave us options for who we are, I can no longer be Edgar Shortbeard, Dwarven Champion of Kirkwall, I am Eldrith Hawke, human Champion of Kirkwall.

"Can no longer be"? You mean there was a version of DA2 where you could play a dwarf once? Where did you get it?

[the_one_54321]

Qset wrote...
If DA2 ends up with less stat customisation compared to DAO then the change does in fact reduce choice by your own definition forgetting about your "dress up" argument.

That would be entirely true. But the devs have claimed that we have the same control over stats and equipment. It came up back when the last podcast was aired. I can't quote the podcast unfortunately, but it was discussed at length in other threads. We're talking thousands of posts here, so forgive me if I'm not willing to go look up the specific ones.

[Addai]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Qset wrote...
I also find it interesting that you regard "The Sims" as not a computer game, am I correct there? If Sims is not a game, can you please explain what it is?

The Sims most certainly is not a game. The Sims is at best an amusing time sink, at worst a complete waste of time. If you enjoy it, then for you it's an amusing time sink. If you enjoy it a lot then for you it's a very amusing time sink. Games have Point A and Point B. Goals. End points. I'm not even entirely sure that I'd call most MMOs games, except that they do seem to have goals and tentative end points, just that they never stop reappearing.

Dude, all video games are "an amusing time sink."  We're not finding the cure to cancer here.

[Piecake]

Qset wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
But when you say that "it doesn't affect the way the game is played," that is not true in terms of player experience.  Choices are being taken away, in the name of streamlining or story necessity or whatever.  A lot of choices, it seems to me, but that is because I spent 10 seconds thinking about what rune to slap on a companion's weapon, and a great deal of time choosing which armors and weapon classes to give them.

That's true, but the only "choice" I've talked about so far was the way your companions will appear. Because that's the only "inventory" related choice that has been taken away.
And the important thing about that is that this "loss of choice" does not effect how you get from Point A to Point B in the game. All the mechanics remain as they would have, effecting the outcomes of situations int the game as they would have, except that the NPCs don't change in appearance.

That has yet to be proven. We have been told that we can customise stats on the static outfits with rune type mechanics and we have been told that the outfits will get stat upgrades during the 10 year period. However, we do noy yet know if all of this will allow the same level of stat customisation that was available for companions in DAO. If it does - then fine, it is purely a cosmetic change that some folks put greater or less value on. Lets also remember here that Bioware must put high value on this cosmetic look since they are the one's driving this change.
 If DA2 ends up with less stat customisation compared to DAO then the change does in fact reduce choice by your own definition forgetting about your "dress up" argument.

Its a simple question for the dev team to answer, does this change reduce stat customisation of companions compared to DAO, a yes or no would suffice. Its the lack of this answer that is fuelling a lot of this discussion.

I'd imagine that the stat upgrades/customization would have to be significant.  I mean, Hawke is presumably getting new armor, new boots, new chest, new gloves, new whatever while your companions dont.  They have to make up for that stat loss somewhere.  Rune/other type mechanics seem to be an easy and efficient solution to that problem.  Why wouldnt they make it significant?  There is no downside to it, and if they dont make it signficant itll just enrage a portion of their fanbase.

The change fixed outfits also has other benefits such as varied body types and unique character animations, which go beyond simple aestetics.  I think those are pretty significant as well.

[the_one_54321]

Qset wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Qset wrote...
I also find it interesting that you regard "The Sims" as not a computer game, am I correct there? If Sims is not a game, can you please explain what it is?

The Sims most certainly is not a game. The Sims is at best an amusing time sink, at worst a complete waste of time. If you enjoy it, then for you it's an amusing time sink. If you enjoy it a lot then for you it's a very amusing time sink. Games have Point A and Point B. Goals. End points. I'm not even entirely sure that I'd call most MMOs games, except that they do seem to have goals and tentative end points, just that they never stop reappearing.

Lol, I actually don't play The Sims myself - although my children enjoy it. I think we are converging on your definition of a game, if you would enjoy it, then its a game - if you regard it as pointless, a time sink or whatever its not. Excellent, we are really making progress today

You're putting words in my mouth and I don't appreciate that. <_<
What you said above is not what I said at all. I listed some specific objective criteria and proceded to call The Sims a time sink.
Games have progression. Goals. Some kind of end game. The Sims have the first two in only the most transient of senses and completely lack the last. MMOs, since I mentioned those as well, have the first two and the last in only the most transient of senses.

[Aermas]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Aermas wrote...
Stop being dense, pretty please?

You ignored all my points! If it helps I will itemize it for you!

Choices do effect gameplay, see the above for examples of said choices

Armor effects gameplay in the fact that specializing looks & the time spend to color co-ordinate my team, if I so choose.

Origins gave us options for who we are, I can no longer be Edgar Shortbeard, Dwarven Champion of Kirkwall, I am Eldrith Hawke, human Champion of Kirkwall.

What are you talking about? Really.
You have an inventory.
You can change equipment stats for Hawke and companions.
You can upgrade aromor and weapons.
The NPCs will not appear different when you do this.

None of that is in any way related to the  things you said in your first post. And in the post quoted here the only relation is that you're saying you want to be able to play dressup. Which itself doesn't actually relate to any of the things you said in your first post.

To make it "Internally Consistent", If I am not given realistic looks for my companions I will be forced to play dress up to try & be "internally Consistent".

My first post was a plea to make the game "Internally Consistent" so their would be no need of this.

& was responding to one of your posts, I was not responding to the original post.

I like the way you ignore the meat of the argument.