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[MerinTB]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
now think........isn't that EXCATLY what you will be doing with belts/rings/runes/amulets/upgrades and weapons themselves in DA2?
...
which is pretty much the SAME thing you were doing before right? 

Right but she'll still look like a moron fighting in a skin tight "pirate outfit ARRG Matey" for the entire game, which kinda defeats the whole "customization" purpose.

That, and they'll never have the simplest of appearance changes that was possible since Pool of Radiance and Knights of Legend.

Man, I remember one of the greatest joys me and my fellow C64 gamers had playing KOL was the member view and party view screens - where you could see what the different armors looked like on your different party members.  I still fondly think back on those screens and thinking "cloth lookes better on my Kelden, despite fur giving better protection, so cloth it is!"

Modifié par MerinTB, 01 décembre 2010 - 02:33 .

[crimzontearz]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...


now think........isn't that EXCATLY what you will be doing with belts/rings/runes/amulets/upgrades and weapons themselves in DA2?

Gaider and Laidlaw said it flat out that the only purpose of those items now is to provide the buffs that armor is not there to do (mind you they also said you can buy upgraded "armor/outfits" for the party or find it). The only difference is "where" the agumentation comes from but the concept is the same. In DA2 you will be sorting through amulets, rings, belts and whatnot to add bonuses or agument the abilities of your party dependiong on the kind of build you have for each character be it defense, attack, magical resistance and so on. You WILL be able to give extra defense to isabela and boost her dexterity to make her into the fabled rogue tank, you WILL be able to take Bethany and  add particular primal boosting amulets or runes to make her the perfect nuker, you WILL be able to customize hawke in the very same way.
which is pretty much the SAME thing you were doing before right? 

can you deny it? short of saying " the devs are utterly lying to me, none of this is true and I KNOW even without proof that DA2 will feature no such agumentation system" can you really say this is not exactly what you were doing before but in another form?

Right but she'll still look like a moron fighting in a skin tight "pirate outfit ARRG Matey" for the entire game, which kinda defeats the whole "customization" purpose.

ok..so you admitt  that the "technical" customization is there right? so "DEPTH wise" this change of direction is not really changing anything in its concept is it? it's just changing its form correct? (I am gonna address the other side of  this in a minute I just want to know whether or not we are on the same page)

[Ziggeh]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Aside from choice, its a staple of the genre to find some great loot after a quest, and be able to upgrade your party's equipment for future, tougher parts of the game. Now that whole part of the game aside from rings and belts and adding a rune or what not is gone for set outfits with not much added in its place. 

The second part is false, which  I assuume you know, given people tell you all the time, so I'm not sure why you're saying that.

As for the first, it's true, personal progression is a good model, but loot isn't the only way to do it and "staple of the genre" isn't a defense of anything. The whole "spiritual successor" thing annoys the bejesus out of me. As if they should attempt to improve upon previous designs in any way. You might not agree with the decisions and trade offs they make to do that, but the genre needs to progress. All the changes to DA2, every one has been in response to a perceived flaw. I'm sure it will throw up new ones itself, which presumably they will again attempt to address and we will again lambast them for meddling.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

MerinTB wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Having waited 5 years of development time for another Bioware PC RPG along the lines of  Baldur's Gate was tough as it was. Now that actual series is being moved entirely in the opposite direction to entice the console crowd/more casuals. When do the folks who enjoy more classic trappings of CRPG's and  have stuck with Bioware through the Jade Empires and Mass Effects  get their own series that caters to them?

We don't.  We have to look to other developers for it.  BioWare's moved out of niche and into mainstream, and cRPGs are niche.  They'll never move 5 million, let alone 10 million, classic RPG games.

They don't owe us for Quixotically waiting on them to "reward" us or "come to their senses."  The outright hostility I often feel from some of the devs who post on here should be enough of a hint that we are not going to be really considered, let alone catered to.

That's not an evil thing on their part, it's a masochistic thing on OUR part.

Trust me Merin, I'm aware of that and sadly its true, the thing is they won't push 5-10 million copies of dumbing each game down to Mass Effect 2  propotions either but I'm guessing their focus groups and what not have convinced them otherwise.

I knew things would change after EA fully aquired Bioware, I knew the dev cycles would get shorter, I knew the games would more than likely end up being streamlined and churned out 18-24 months apart. (to be honest I didn't like the whole Elevation Partners deal in the first place knowing who was behind it) I just didn't expect it to happen so quick and for so many Bioware developers to jump right on board and be all for it. Though in the end I suppose stripping out layers of customization makes it easier on them in some regards anyway.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

[quote]crimzontearz wrote...

[quote]CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...


[/quote]

Right but she'll still look like a moron fighting in a skin tight "pirate outfit ARRG Matey" for the entire game, which kinda defeats the whole "customization" purpose.

[/quote]

ok..so you admitt  that the "technical" customization is there right? so "DEPTH wise" this change of direction is not really changing anything in its concept is it? it's just changing its form correct? (I am gonna address the other side of  this in a minute I just want to know whether or not we are on the same page)
[/quote]

It depends, do rings and belts still have single mods on them mostly? Are runes actually more potent than they were in Origins? If not no, its not the same thing in the slightest.

[Nohvarr]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

See thats the new generation's thing though. "party customization! TOO TIME CONSUMING" I WANA PUSH BUTTON MAKE AWESOME HAPPEN!

New Generatiom? I've been a BW fan since Baldur's Gate 2, so you really can't dismiss my arguments because I'm a newbie. The old customization system was nice for it's time, however as CT has pointed out, a new system is in effect that accomplishes much of what the old one did, without sacrificing the party memebers individuality.

 Let each game be its own thing.

DA may be taking some pointers from ME but at the end of the day it's still it's own universe and thing. ME is a sci-fi story steeped in judging your moral choices, where as DA all but encourages you to find your own moral path. 

When do the folks who enjoy more classic trappings of CRPG's and  have stuck with Bioware through the Jade Empires and Mass Effects  get their own series that caters to them?

to quote G'Kar

"You're time has come and gone! It's our time now!!"

in all seriousness, CT has pointed out that you're still able to customize your party memebers and that you even have the ability to purchase new clothes/armor for them. So its a different spin on an old system, to bring it into the modern age.

[crimzontearz]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...



It depends, do rings and belts still have single mods on them mostly? Are runes actually more potent than they were in Origins? If not no, its not the same thing in the slightest.

yes for the first question to the point that depending on the class of the character you are viewing an item for the rating of such items changes (in number of stars) to reflect how useful it is to him/her...there is a whole statistical system behind it that Luke was kind enough to give us an example of in another thread. Mike confirmed that items have often more than one mod and each mod contributes to a "percentage" that goes toward how high ranking that item is.

Runes we do not know but the ONLY point of runes and other items is now to give buffs that armor is not there to give so yes it is a VERY good bet they are

Modifié par crimzontearz, 01 décembre 2010 - 02:43 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Aside from choice, its a staple of the genre to find some great loot after a quest, and be able to upgrade your party's equipment for future, tougher parts of the game. Now that whole part of the game aside from rings and belts and adding a rune or what not is gone for set outfits with not much added in its place. 

The second part is false, which  I assuume you know, given people tell you all the time, so I'm not sure why you're saying that.

As for the first, it's true, personal progression is a good model, but loot isn't the only way to do it and "staple of the genre" isn't a defense of anything. The whole "spiritual successor" thing annoys the bejesus out of me. As if they should attempt to improve upon previous designs in any way. You might not agree with the decisions and trade offs they make to do that, but the genre needs to progress. All the changes to DA2, every one has been in response to a perceived flaw. I'm sure it will throw up new ones itself, which presumably they will again attempt to address and we will again lambast them for meddling.

Really? 95% of the party based CRPG's I've played over the years its pretty much been a staple of the genre. Guess I must be playing different rpg's than you.

Stripping out layers of customization in a fantasy role playing game is hardly progress. Streamlining to extreme measures is hardly progress either.

Oh gods, so much work to gear out my companions that I control, such a flaw! Yeah sorry not following you at all.

[crimzontearz]

sorry in my previous post I meant "no" to the first question......it was implied by Mike that items have more than one agumentation as I explained after

[Nohvarr]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I knew things would change after EA fully aquired Bioware,

Why do some people act like these changes are a the results of EA's influence. Jade Empire showed us that BW wanted to change things up in the CRPG genre. You could argue that JE, had less RPG components than what we've seen of DA: 2 and was far more streamlined than ME 2.

But, to quote you, JE was it's own thing. So is DA: 2. It takes what has been learned sincethe BG series and even DA: O and seels to make something better. Instead of wallowing in stagnation like so many other game series and/or genres.

[Ziggeh]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Yeah sorry not following you at all.

That's because you're looking at things in isolation. It's a problem a lot of people seem to have.

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Really? 95% of the party based CRPG's I've played over the years its pretty much been a staple of the genre. Guess I must be playing different rpg's than you.

I didn't say it was not. I said that it being used in the past is not an argument it should be used in the future. It should stand on it's own merits or be replaced.

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Stripping out layers of customization in a fantasy role playing game is hardly progress. Streamlining to extreme measures is hardly progress either.

It depends on a ) what you get in return and b ) whether the things phased out had merit. Just removing things is not often progress, no, but that's not what they're doing.

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Oh gods, so much work to gear out my companions that I control, such a flaw!

This is what I mean by the isolation issue above. It solves other problems the game had. There was a trade off in visual customisation in return for better models, animations and unique stylised looks.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Nohvarr wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

See thats the new generation's thing though. "party customization! TOO TIME CONSUMING" I WANA PUSH BUTTON MAKE AWESOME HAPPEN!

New Generatiom? I've been a BW fan since Baldur's Gate 2, so you really can't dismiss my arguments because I'm a newbie. The old customization system was nice for it's time, however as CT has pointed out, a new system is in effect that accomplishes much of what the old one did, without sacrificing the party memebers individuality.

 Let each game be its own thing.

DA may be taking some pointers from ME but at the end of the day it's still it's own universe and thing. ME is a sci-fi story steeped in judging your moral choices, where as DA all but encourages you to find your own moral path. 

When do the folks who enjoy more classic trappings of CRPG's and  have stuck with Bioware through the Jade Empires and Mass Effects  get their own series that caters to them?

to quote G'Kar

"You're time has come and gone! It's our time now!!"

in all seriousness, CT has pointed out that you're still able to customize your party memebers and that you even have the ability to purchase new clothes/armor for them. So its a different spin on an old system, to bring it into the modern age.

Yeah so its like I though, you folks want action rpg's, heavy on the action, light on the actual RP systems that generally make an CRPG an RPG. Streamlining for the sake of it should be Bioware's new studio mantra. **** those fans in their 30's who grew up on RPG's with tons of customization and deep complex components, thats no good anymore, we need fast action and simple push a button something awesome happens, your time is gone!

Thanks for essentially proving my point even if you weren't being completely serious. There's nothing really modern about removing customization because it gives the art dept an easier work load.

[soteria]

Sarah wrote...

Not every RPG needs to be Mass Effect. Why Bioware somehow feels the need to essentially move the Dragon Age IP completely into that direction makes no sense to me what so ever. Be it companion gear, dialog wheel, what have you. Let each game be its own thing.

Indeed, let DA2 be its own thing. It should be clear to you by this point that the thing DA2 will be is not the thing you want it to be. Can you stop complaining about how Bioware's pandering to the masses, now? Please?

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Nohvarr wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I knew things would change after EA fully aquired Bioware,

Why do some people act like these changes are a the results of EA's influence. Jade Empire showed us that BW wanted to change things up in the CRPG genre. You could argue that JE, had less RPG components than what we've seen of DA: 2 and was far more streamlined than ME 2.

But, to quote you, JE was it's own thing. So is DA: 2. It takes what has been learned sincethe BG series and even DA: O and seels to make something better. Instead of wallowing in stagnation like so many other game series and/or genres.

Sure and JE was prolly the weakest Bioware title out of all of them. Though considering it was designed as a console action RPG in the first place thats not all that surprising.

[Ziggeh]

soteria wrote...
Can you stop complaining about how Bioware's pandering to the masses, now? Please?

How are we to support unsupported arguments without the use of meaningless platitudes?

[crimzontearz]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

See thats the new generation's thing though. "party customization! TOO TIME CONSUMING" I WANA PUSH BUTTON MAKE AWESOME HAPPEN!

New Generatiom? I've been a BW fan since Baldur's Gate 2, so you really can't dismiss my arguments because I'm a newbie. The old customization system was nice for it's time, however as CT has pointed out, a new system is in effect that accomplishes much of what the old one did, without sacrificing the party memebers individuality.

 Let each game be its own thing.

DA may be taking some pointers from ME but at the end of the day it's still it's own universe and thing. ME is a sci-fi story steeped in judging your moral choices, where as DA all but encourages you to find your own moral path. 

When do the folks who enjoy more classic trappings of CRPG's and  have stuck with Bioware through the Jade Empires and Mass Effects  get their own series that caters to them?

to quote G'Kar

"You're time has come and gone! It's our time now!!"

in all seriousness, CT has pointed out that you're still able to customize your party memebers and that you even have the ability to purchase new clothes/armor for them. So its a different spin on an old system, to bring it into the modern age.

Yeah so its like I though, you folks want action rpg's, heavy on the action, light on the actual RP systems that generally make an CRPG an RPG. Streamlining for the sake of it should be Bioware's new studio mantra. **** those fans in their 30's who grew up on RPG's with tons of customization and deep complex components, thats no good anymore, we need fast action and simple push a button something awesome happens, your time is gone!

Thanks for essentially proving my point even if you weren't being completely serious. There's nothing really modern about removing customization because it gives the art dept an easier work load.

OH MY ****ING GOD Sarah you just finished agreeing with me that the system/technical complexity has not been removed from DAO and it has just changed form how the hell can you come out with something like this now???

[Sir JK]

Could we please stopping the platform wars and defining what constitutes and what does not constitute a crpg before we get this thing locked? Turn it back to armour art and the realistic or unrealistic aspects of it?

[Nohvarr]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Yeah so its like I though, you folks want action rpg's, heavy on the action, light on the actual RP systems that generally make an CRPG an RPG. Streamlining for the sake of it should be Bioware's new studio mantra. **** those fans in their 30's who grew up on RPG's with tons of customization and deep complex components, thats no good anymore, we need fast action and simple push a button something awesome happens, your time is gone!

Thanks for essentially proving my point even if you weren't being completely serious. There's nothing really modern about removing customization because it gives the art dept an easier work load.

Aaaaaand I'm officially done arguing with you because you ignored my points, CT's arguments and instead focused on something you knew was in jest in an attempt to discount what I have said. You want to believe that this is a bad decision, that Bioware is making a mistake, and no amount of arguing is going to change your mind, so I won't bother wasting my time and yours any further.

Have a pleasant day.

Modifié par Nohvarr, 01 décembre 2010 - 02:59 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

It's there in some extent CT, streamlined to hell and back but sure it's there, I guess.

[crimzontearz]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

It's there in some extent CT, streamlined to hell and back but sure it's there, I guess.

HOW is it stramlined for the love of god?

you still have have 2 rings 1 necklace, 1 belt and a number of rune slots to use....armor is now ONE  slot for companions rather than  4

so basically you only  lost 3 customization slots which are made up by better buffs through the other items ON TOP of the fact that their one amor/outfit  contains even MORE buffs and you can buy upgraded versions of them

HOW is it streamlined under the technical standpoint????

Modifié par crimzontearz, 01 décembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[soteria]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

soteria wrote...
Can you stop complaining about how Bioware's pandering to the masses, now? Please?

How are we to support unsupported arguments without the use of meaningless platitudes?

Hmm, good point.  CoS Sarah Jinstar's posts are the forum equivalent of Bioware marketing?  Carry on, I guess. 

Modifié par soteria, 01 décembre 2010 - 03:06 .

[Piecake]

MerinTB wrote...

They don't owe us for Quixotically waiting on them to "reward" us or "come to their senses."  The outright hostility I often feel from some of the devs who post on here should be enough of a hint that we are not going to be really considered, let alone catered to.

I'd imagine that that's because some posters voice their issues/complaints in such a disrespectful manner, i.e. placing value judgements on preferences, insults, assumptions, and what not.  I mean, how would you feel if you worked really hard on something and someone called you a sell-out, your creation garbage, etc?  I know I'd get pretty pissed off.

[crimzontearz]

Sarah you will STILL be wading through loot to find buffer items OR monetary valuables to buy them off of vendors, you will still be watching for items that boost specific statd or abilities in your characters to decide who to assign them to and why AND depending on your build you will have to pay more attention because the star system might be meaningless to YOUR specific build



all the complexity is still there but in a different package. your qualm is purely Aestetical at this point and you know what? you have ALL the rights in the world to disagree with the dev's choices but do not jump on a soap box and preach how dumbed down DA2 will be because it is not true. Or better yet what we have ben told so far suggests it is NOT. If the day comes and DA2 comes out and nothing the devs said was true I'll be the first one to say you are right but until that day Sarah you need to stop this crusade of yours, it's getting silly

[mokponobi]

crimzontearz wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

It's there in some extent CT, streamlined to hell and back but sure it's there, I guess.

HOW is it stramlined for the love of god?

you still have have 2 rings 1 necklace, 1 belt and a number of rune slots to use....armor is now ONE  slot for companions rather than  4

so basically you only  lost 3 customization slots which are made up by better buffs through the other items ON TOP of the fact that their one amor/outfit  contains even MORE buffs and you can buy upgraded versions of them

HOW is it streamlined under the technical standpoint????

Sorry but you don't know that most of what you said about armor in your 4th sentence is available in the game, until we get more information speculation like this is unhelpful.

[crimzontearz]

mokponobi wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

It's there in some extent CT, streamlined to hell and back but sure it's there, I guess.

HOW is it stramlined for the love of god?

you still have have 2 rings 1 necklace, 1 belt and a number of rune slots to use....armor is now ONE  slot for companions rather than  4

so basically you only  lost 3 customization slots which are made up by better buffs through the other items ON TOP of the fact that their one amor/outfit  contains even MORE buffs and you can buy upgraded versions of them

HOW is it streamlined under the technical standpoint????

Sorry but you don't know that most of what you said about armor in your 4th sentence is available in the game, until we get more information speculation like this is unhelpful.

what do you mean??

it was revealed they have 1 outfit slot and the rest of the item slots......they revealed outfits can be upgraded and changed (by time or by buying/finding upgraded versions) and yes said outfits contain buffs themselves

go search for the direct quotes but all I said was said by a dev