934 réponses à ce sujet

[Aermas]

AlanC9 wrote...

Aermas wrote...
Now someone fighting naked gets the same Armor Stat as an armored combatant.

Who told you that? The last thing I heard was that armor works in percentages now, but it's still there.

Are you not paying attention? Yes the Armor statistic will be a there reducing your damage, but a person who is graphically shown to be in a a linen shirt will have the same ARMOR STAT as someone graphically shown to be in chain. Barring Enchantments & whatever will be going into a companion's armor slot.

[AlanC9]

Aermas wrote...


Are you not paying attention? Yes the Armor statistic will be a there reducing your damage, but a person who is graphically shown to be in a a linen shirt will have the same ARMOR STAT as someone graphically shown to be in chain. Barring Enchantments & whatever will be going into a companion's armor slot.

This makes no sense at all.

The PC's look will change depending on what he's wearing, so you're obviously talking about the NPCs.

NPCs won't change looks much since they won't change gear much, but they will have appropriate armor stats for their gear. Where on earth are you getting the idea that they won't?

[Leonia]

Because if it doesn't "look" like armour then it must not actually "be" armour. Or that's what I am gathering anyway. Still, that is based on assumption and not fact.

[Matchy Pointy]

AlanC9 wrote...

Aermas wrote...


Are you not paying attention? Yes the Armor statistic will be a there reducing your damage, but a person who is graphically shown to be in a a linen shirt will have the same ARMOR STAT as someone graphically shown to be in chain. Barring Enchantments & whatever will be going into a companion's armor slot.

This makes no sense at all.

The PC's look will change depending on what he's wearing, so you're obviously talking about the NPCs.

NPCs won't change looks much since they won't change gear much, but they will have appropriate armor stats for their gear. Where on earth are you getting the idea that they won't?

From his own conviction that it is so, until I see a link to this being confirmed.

[Aermas]

AlanC9 wrote...

Aermas wrote...


Are you not paying attention? Yes the Armor statistic will be a there reducing your damage, but a person who is graphically shown to be in a a linen shirt will have the same ARMOR STAT as someone graphically shown to be in chain. Barring Enchantments & whatever will be going into a companion's armor slot.

This makes no sense at all.

The PC's look will change depending on what he's wearing, so you're obviously talking about the NPCs.

NPCs won't change looks much since they won't change gear much, but they will have appropriate armor stats for their gear. Where on earth are you getting the idea that they won't?

I will repeat again what I have said before in the hopes that you will understand what I'm saying.

Unequip someone like Isabela of all her equipment, Unequip Aveline of all her equipment. Even though Aveline will be graphically armored & Isabela is not graphically armored, they will have the same ARMOR STAT.

[Leonia]

Aermas wrote...

Unequip someone like Isabela of all her
equipment, Unequip Aveline of all her equipment. Even though Aveline
will be graphically armored & Isabela is not graphically armored,
they will have the same ARMOR STAT.

What.. Aveline is a warrior and Isabela is a rogue.. that's..where the hell are you grabbing that from?

If they are both unequipped, then they are naked (for reals naked here, since they aren't wearing anything). I would assume Aveline has more defense in this case because of her class.

Modifié par leonia42, 03 décembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[Matchy Pointy]

Aermas wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Aermas wrote...


Are you not paying attention? Yes the Armor statistic will be a there reducing your damage, but a person who is graphically shown to be in a a linen shirt will have the same ARMOR STAT as someone graphically shown to be in chain. Barring Enchantments & whatever will be going into a companion's armor slot.

This makes no sense at all.

The PC's look will change depending on what he's wearing, so you're obviously talking about the NPCs.

NPCs won't change looks much since they won't change gear much, but they will have appropriate armor stats for their gear. Where on earth are you getting the idea that they won't?

I will repeat again what I have said before in the hopes that you will understand what I'm saying.

Unequip someone like Isabela of all her equipment, Unequip Aveline of all her equipment. Even though Aveline will be graphically armored & Isabela is not graphically armored, they will have the same ARMOR STAT.

Can you even remove their clothes/armour?

[Aermas]

leonia42 wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Unequip someone like Isabela of all her
equipment, Unequip Aveline of all her equipment. Even though Aveline
will be graphically armored & Isabela is not graphically armored,
they will have the same ARMOR STAT.

What.. Aveline is a warrior and Isabela is a rogue.. that's..where the hell are you grabbing that from?

If they are both unequipped, then they are naked (for reals naked here, since they aren't wearing anything). I would assume Aveline has more defense in this case because of her class.

Whatever they are equipped with has no bearing on their graphical look, this has been said by devs several times

[AlanC9]

Matchy Pointy wrote...
Can you even remove their clothes/armour?

My impression is that you can't, which is why I didn't understand what Aermas was talking about. My impression from Laidlaw's posts and the screenshots is that the armor is there but is not removable until you gain a specific upgrade for the specific character, at which point it's swapped out. Accessories are swappable but don't change the avatar

But let's say you can, just for fun. If a really stupid player wants them to fight without their armor, he can get the stats, he just can't have them look naked in the game.

This might be a problem. For really stupid players.

And I should care what happens to really stupid players.... why?

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 décembre 2010 - 06:23 .

[Leonia]

I thought he was just trying to make a point that without gear the characters have identical stats (which sounds outlandish to me) as a comparison.. not.. literally trying to say that players playing without gear on are going to be at a disadvantage. Or maybe that's not what he meant? Either way, comparing a warrior and a rogue isn't going to be the same as comparing two warriors or two rogues or two mages to one another.

[Dave of Canada]

*eating*

*looks at picture*

That's totally fake.

*continues eating*

[Matchy Pointy]

Aermas wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Unequip someone like Isabela of all her
equipment, Unequip Aveline of all her equipment. Even though Aveline
will be graphically armored & Isabela is not graphically armored,
they will have the same ARMOR STAT.

What.. Aveline is a warrior and Isabela is a rogue.. that's..where the hell are you grabbing that from?

If they are both unequipped, then they are naked (for reals naked here, since they aren't wearing anything). I would assume Aveline has more defense in this case because of her class.

Whatever they are equipped with has no bearing on their graphical look, this has been said by devs several times

So, this is no longer a discussion on that everyone should strap on as much armour as possible and it's about the graphics? I have a feeling you don't like any fantasy games, as you can hit their unprotected arm and their armour still protects them (except maybe Die by the Sword).

[Aermas]

AlanC9 wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...
Can you even remove their clothes/armour?

My impression is that you can't, which is why I didn't understand what Aermas was talking about.

But let's say you can, just for fun. If a really stupid player wants them to fight without their armor, he can get the stats, he just can't have them look naked in the game.

This might be a problem. For really stupid players.

And I should care what happens to really stupid players.... why?

I'm not talking about having them graphically naked. I'm talking about removing whatever enchants & runes in their armor slot. until they have no armor.

[Matchy Pointy]

Aermas wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...
Can you even remove their clothes/armour?

My impression is that you can't, which is why I didn't understand what Aermas was talking about.

But let's say you can, just for fun. If a really stupid player wants them to fight without their armor, he can get the stats, he just can't have them look naked in the game.

This might be a problem. For really stupid players.

And I should care what happens to really stupid players.... why?

I'm not talking about having them graphically naked. I'm talking about removing whatever enchants & runes in their armor slot. until they have no armor.

But if you removes the enchants and runes, they still will wear their armour/clothes...

[Aermas]

Matchy Pointy wrote...

Aermas wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...
Can you even remove their clothes/armour?

My impression is that you can't, which is why I didn't understand what Aermas was talking about.

But let's say you can, just for fun. If a really stupid player wants them to fight without their armor, he can get the stats, he just can't have them look naked in the game.

This might be a problem. For really stupid players.

And I should care what happens to really stupid players.... why?

I'm not talking about having them graphically naked. I'm talking about removing whatever enchants & runes in their armor slot. until they have no armor.

But if you removes the enchants and runes, they still will wear their armour/clothes...

Exactly, but the stats will not reflect that they still have armor/clothes

[In Exile]

Aermas wrote...

Exactly, but the stats will not reflect that they still have armor/clothes

Except that there isn't any reason to believe that the baseline stats for the clothes will be identical.

[Matchy Pointy]

Aermas wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...

Aermas wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...
Can you even remove their clothes/armour?

My impression is that you can't, which is why I didn't understand what Aermas was talking about.

But let's say you can, just for fun. If a really stupid player wants them to fight without their armor, he can get the stats, he just can't have them look naked in the game.

This might be a problem. For really stupid players.

And I should care what happens to really stupid players.... why?

I'm not talking about having them graphically naked. I'm talking about removing whatever enchants & runes in their armor slot. until they have no armor.

But if you removes the enchants and runes, they still will wear their armour/clothes...

Exactly, but the stats will not reflect that they still have armor/clothes

Wich isnt confirmed, if their base armour/clothes have armour value, and it's always on, then they always will ahve different armour. And if this isn't so, please give me link where this is confirmed, that their personal apparal don't have any values.

[AlanC9]

Aermas wrote...
I'm not talking about having them graphically naked. I'm talking about removing whatever enchants & runes in their armor slot. until they have no armor.

Hey, you're the guy who put naked in the thread title.

In linen shirts, naked, in DAO underwear, in pajamas.... whatever you want to talk about, it's still a condition that only comes up if the player is stupid enough to want to make them fight unarmored.

And again, I'm pretty sure that the base armor stays on at all times anyway, so no matter how stupid you are you can't do it .

[Leonia]

I'm still not convinced that even if they were naked (and it's debatable if they can be) that their stats would all be the same.

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...


Except that there isn't any reason to believe that the baseline stats for the clothes will be identical.

I'd say there's good reason to think that the baselines won't be identical. The whole design is about having flexibility in armor style go away; there's no reason at all for them to keep base stats that they don't want anyone to use. Edit: which is basically what Aermas is saying, except that  he cares what happens to really stupid players for reasons that he can't explain.

Possible exception, though -- it may be a plot point that Carver and Aveline start unarmored because of the surprise attack. If this is true, it raises an interesting question.

But this is all theoretical, since IIRC Laidlaw said that the basic gear can't be removed in the first place. So the baseline is the first set of gear and unarmored versions of the characters do not exist in the game.

Well, except for love scenes, since I don't think they're going to go for the Excalibur look.

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 décembre 2010 - 06:58 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

ziggehunderslash wrote...
As I said, I'm simplifying the effect of defense for the sake of the example, think of it as the average damage taken per swing after avoidance. I was just illustrating a mechanism that allowed for what aemas is calling an inconsistency.

If you mean average damage per minute/hour, then yes..the end result there might be simialr. But the battle flow should be completly different. That's why I'm against defense having any bigger effect on lowering damage. Some small effect, maybe - if you want to extend defense to that.

Frankly, wearing heavy armor should mean that often you recive NO damage from getting hit.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Sigil_Beguiler123 wrote...

At least in normal D&D 3.5 (which if I remember you correctly saying in past posts in this thread was the D&D you played). That with normal characters there is no Damage Reduction, that is usually for something special. AC is armour + dexterity + 10 +special stuff. Someone could wear no armour but have high dexterity and have a better AC score then someone with tons of heavy armour. Or a mix of both. In my current game my rogue has a higher AC then our tank because of her ridiculous dex score.

Which I would say is a fine example of what I and others have mentioned in the past. That it comes down to narrative. That the person with the higher AC because of dexterity is because of dodging, etc. not from being able to shrug off a blow like someone with high AC thanks to armour.

Personally, I hated that approximation. Which is the reason I modded my BG2 game to replace AC bonuses on armor with different damage reduction values. (nd removeing armor/wepon restrictons  that made no sense)
Comepletely changes the gameplay (for better). The flow of battle and feel of a heavy tank and a nimble rouge are completely different.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Matchy Pointy wrote...
So, this is no longer a discussion on that everyone should strap on as much armour as possible and it's about the graphics? I have a feeling you don't like any fantasy games, as you can hit their unprotected arm and their armour still protects them (except maybe Die by the Sword).

Collision detection sadly has a big processing overhead. Meaning if that was implemented, you'd need a more powerfull computer to play the game. So it's one of the things that has a rather large cost attached to it.

[Matchy Pointy]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Matchy Pointy wrote...
So, this is no longer a discussion on that everyone should strap on as much armour as possible and it's about the graphics? I have a feeling you don't like any fantasy games, as you can hit their unprotected arm and their armour still protects them (except maybe Die by the Sword).

Collision detection sadly has a big processing overhead. Meaning if that was implemented, you'd need a more powerfull computer to play the game. So it's one of the things that has a rather large cost attached to it.

Oh, you got me wrong, I'm not arguing to put that in, it's interesting in theory, but games have a long way to go to be able to make it work well, I only meant that there are several things that arent "realistic" (although one could argue what is realistic here and in Thedas are two different things), complexity in a game can indeed be a good thing, but too much complexity is not.

[Ziggeh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
If you mean average damage per minute/hour, then yes..the end result there might be simialr. But the battle flow should be completly different. That's why I'm against defense having any bigger effect on lowering damage. Some small effect, maybe - if you want to extend defense to that.

Frankly, wearing heavy armor should mean that often you recive NO damage from getting hit.

What I was trying to imply, and failing miserably, was that picking a single part of a process that by definition is abstract and deciding that it must obey real life physical laws is almost entirely rediculous.

The whole system itself makes no real sense, yet aermas is holding a small part of it up to a standard that in no way warrants it.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 03 décembre 2010 - 01:36 .