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The evaluation of armor, it's purpose in companions' use, & it's effects in the game


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#151
Aermas

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Matchy Pointy wrote...

Many have worn pants in history, and I imagine atleast as many have not done so. You should try to persuade the Romans about the value of a good pair of pants, seeing as they did quite well without them. Pants are mainly a cultural thing, and in no way better or worse then other posible ways to clothe yourself, and men or women going without pants is nothing weird. The same can much be said about the armour question, lots and lots examples of people going into combat with little/no armour, for all kinds of different reasons (not saying it's always the most effective way, but it's a way that have been used non the less).

*edited for sloppy spelling, bad me.


If you have ever seen Krod Mandoon & the Flaming Sword of Fire, there is a really funny scene about "Pagan Goat Pants"

#152
Sir JK

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Uhm... Aermas. Which of those pictures were supposed to be historical accounts of pirates wearing armour? :P



But let's discuss them either way. The top pirate is wearing tight pants (looks like jeans to me even... in shape at least) which is perhaps not ideal at sea. Loose pants are preferable (because you know how cloth gets when it gets wet... rigid).



The girl have an inclination over her sternum... which would funnel the force of attacks over her heart.



And the pirates of the carribean picture... ehm... neither Barbossa, Jack or the one-eyed fellow are wearing armour and Nathalie Portman seems to be wearing a full oriental robe with only some armour over her shoulders.

#153
Matchy Pointy

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Only seen the first epiosde of it, and found it so-so, as all comedy shows really. The point is though, that pants is a clutural issue much more then a practical one (except for cold areas, like up here), and therefor not really an issue in itself, unless someone knows somethng about the culture of pants in Thedas that I have missed out on.

#154
Aermas

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The Pirate is wearing leggings, the things on the side are seams & toggles. I've never really sailed so I have to opinion of what to wear at see, but I know that more cloth means more water soaked weight & that loose clothing can hinder you when climbing (rigging) & such.



The leather is formed to her body, I'm not sure what part of the armor you are talking about, I never said the armor was crafted well. It leaves a whole lot open & I don't believe it's even ridged leather.



Portman is wearing a shinto? & the armor goes over it. I believe it is an oriental lamalar but I could be wrong.

#155
Sir JK

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Aermas wrote...

The Pirate is wearing leggings, the things on the side are seams & toggles. I've never really sailed so I have to opinion of what to wear at see, but I know that more cloth means more water soaked weight & that loose clothing can hinder you when climbing (rigging) & such.


Trust me, having swimmed in jeans in cold water, the last thing you want soaked is tight clothing. Also having plenty of experience with soaked tight trousers on land... it's not much more fun there. Loose pants might become heavier, but they're less rigid and thus less obstructive.

The leather is formed to her body, I'm not sure what part of the armor you are talking about, I never said the armor was crafted well. It leaves a whole lot open & I don't believe it's even ridged leather.


Sorry, the sternum is the breast bone which is to say the area in the middle of the chest. Her armour is is inclining there, leaving a small groove in which swords (and other things) could slid into. Given that it's straight over her heart/aortic arch the effect could be absolutely disastrous. That's why most plate is angled outwards there, to make weapons slid off the chest (and thus direct the force sideways).

Portman is wearing a shinto? & the armor goes over it. I believe it is an oriental lamalar but I could be wrong.


Possibly. I suppose she could also be wearing something under it. Difficult to tell.

#156
Aermas

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Sir JK wrote...

Sorry, the sternum is the breast bone which is to say the area in the middle of the chest. Her armour is is inclining there, leaving a small groove in which swords (and other things) could slid into. Given that it's straight over her heart/aortic arch the effect could be absolutely disastrous. That's why most plate is angled outwards there, to make weapons slid off the chest (and thus direct the force sideways).


Ah, I didn't think it was that much of a curve, but I don't know, I didn't make it & I can't tell much from the pic. You're right though, if that's the case, when she made the armor she shouldn't have separated two "cones" for her breasts

Modifié par Aermas, 29 novembre 2010 - 11:16 .


#157
Grand_Commander13

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*checks in*

Are people still arguing against the strawman of people wanting all party members to wear plate armor? I'm sorry, did anybody actually suggest that? And troll accounts don't count.

#158
Ziggeh

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Grand_Commander13 wrote...

*checks in*
Are people still arguing against the strawman of people wanting all party members to wear plate armor? I'm sorry, did anybody actually suggest that? And troll accounts don't count.

It's good to see it's progressed from "they should wear armour because they should" to "people who are not in this game wear armour".

#159
Il Divo

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tmp7704 wrote...

I think this reasoning goes backward, in a way -- Isabela didn't actually demonstrate anything for us yet. Instead, we presume that her lack of protection is justified by extraordinary skill, because that's the only possible explanation which doesn't require conceding she may be simply a conceited fool.

It'll be interesting to see how well she actually performs on her own in a fight -- somehow i don't think she'll be game-breaking good at dodging enemy attacks when push comes to shove.


This is true in that we have not actually seen Isabella's fighting style show-cased. But given how defense/armor worked in Dragon Age, I would hop in Isabella's case as a rogue we will see more emphasis on dodging than literally taking the blunt force of these attacks.  

It's a poor example in the sense it doesn't show how Hawke/companions are special snowflakes of their world, but to the contrary -- it shows that what they do is par for the course. As such, it doesn't lend very well towards the idea that Isabela (and other companions) are sooo much better than everyone else, that they can dance circle around their heavier armour enemies, e.g.

 
The purpose of the example is to illustrate the fact that dual wielding long swords is not realistic in any way. It doesn't matter if everyone in Dragon Age does it, no one has ever effectively utilized such a style. Same with firing three arrows from the bow.Should I assume that these long swords are made of some special material that allows them to be used diferently? It's simply meant to showcase that a dwarf warrior for example who does dual wield and kill x number of Dark Spawn is showing how he is exceptional.

That is why I think claims to realism are so silly, much like the current armor discussion. Dragon Age was never meant to show case some realistic form of combat. It's pure fantasy and claims that "armor doesn't work like this" or "daggers are useless" are themselves useless. Most combat in fantasy is done for aesthetic purposes and "rule of cool". Is the weapon system realistic? Encumbrance? Repairs? There are so many aspects of realism that Dragon Age ignores that 'no armor' (which is not all that uncommon in RPGs, simply look at the 3.5 monk class) hardly breaks some fundamental tenent.

If i'm not mistaken the "lieutenant" yellow-con NPCs are supposed to be on par with companions/player (with the boss level NPCs intended to be on power level comparable to full party) This is of course completely ruined with the ability of the player/companions to self-heal while enemies are prevented from it. But if you put both sides in the same conditions (controlled only by the AI/tactics and no pots) it'd likely be roughly even match (granted, as long as the party wasn't constructed by a munchkin)


So, when my party is wading through white, yellow, and organge npcs in the Deep Roads, what is this meant to demonstrate, if not that we are exceptional? Health pots or not, any RPG showcases the fact that its hero characters are above average/unique. Yes, we do fight the occasional boss-battle which gives us pause. But even the average yellow npc pales in comparison to an Arcane Warrior for example. Much like in LOTR when we watch Aragorn, Legolas, and Gandalf cut through orcs like it's nothing.
 
Part of playing the RPG is playing characters who are typically stronger than everyone around them, otherwise they would not be managing these feats period. That is why PC characters typically find themselves fighting groups larger than their own. If we are on par with every group of Dark Spawn, we'd be taking more casualties in the Deep Roads than zero. We would not be Grey Wardens, we would not be the ones to kill the Arch-Demon, etc. It's a standard trope that you find in most video games. Simply putting control in the hands of an AI battle is not enough to demonstrate how we are 'average'.

In Kotor, you are told quite clearly that you are distinctly not average given your connection to the Force. Bastila is noted to be the only hope to win the War, Carth is the Republic's best pilot, Canderous was a Mandalorian Commander,etc.

In Jade Empire, everyone remarks on your superior fighting style as well as that strange 'flaw'. Sagacious Zhu is shown to have been a Lotus Assassin Commander, Black Whirlwind is said to have taken on an army himelf, etc.

These characters which you control and interact with all come from some kind of exceptional circumstances. Showing how they are 'on par' for their settings is not possible simply through an AI battle.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 novembre 2010 - 01:11 .


#160
Sir JK

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Il divo, part of why some of us makes realism arguments is that we enjoy it (both realism and arguing for it that is ;) ). To us the more realistic something is, the more enjoyable it is. With allowed exceptions such as there is magic, elves, dwarves, etc. Given that combat as a whole is not realistic but abstracted, something we all acknowledge, some of us ask for what little realism we can get sort of. Like in terms of art, animations and whatnot. We cannot change the combat system, no matter how hard we try, but we can hope for the the game to provide the illusion that it is somewhat realistic thematically, if not mechanically.

Hence the arguments for what styles, what armour and such is and isn't realistic.

Also fun trivia; there is a european sword style that uses two longer swords. I cannot recall it's name however. But dual-wielding, wether that is two swords, sword+dagger, sword+something else, sword+cape or sword+buckler are all very viable techniques. If perhaps not common.

Modifié par Sir JK, 29 novembre 2010 - 01:16 .


#161
Ziggeh

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Sir JK wrote...

Hence the arguments for what styles, what armour and such is and isn't realistic.

Aye, what constitutes realism is fair enough. Personally I'm of the opinion that what people believe is real is more important than what is actually real when you're storytelling, as the aim should be verisimilitude rather than accuracy. And what most people believe about arms and armour is based on fiction.

As for the extent to which the game presents realism, there are loads of things that bug me to the degree that armour seems a little bit petty (downing enough health potions to replace all the fluid in your body, the fact that there are only about 4 houses in denerim, and everyone keeps there valuables in one box, which is identical to everyone elses box) , but I can understand that if you know a good deal about the top it would certainly stand out.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 29 novembre 2010 - 01:27 .


#162
Il Divo

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Sir JK wrote...

Il divo, part of why some of us makes realism arguments is that we enjoy it (both realism and arguing for it that is ;) ). To us the more realistic something is, the more enjoyable it is. With allowed exceptions such as there is magic, elves, dwarves, etc. Given that combat as a whole is not realistic but abstracted, something we all acknowledge, some of us ask for what little realism we can get sort of. Like in terms of art, animations and whatnot. We cannot change the combat system, no matter how hard we try, but we can hope for the the game to provide the illusion that it is somewhat realistic thematically, if not mechanically. 


Right, but I'm also not arguing against realism by referencing elves, magic, etc. Those are simply allowances that we make for the genre to exist. Period.

What I'm curious about though is why the lack of armor occupies some special point of criticism. I for example notice these arguments taking place saying "Well, these are the specifics on how armor works" and can't help but think that this can be applied throughout Dragon Age. But if I decided to turn the tables and argue against firing three arrows at a time, where would that leave us? Is fighting without armor really worse than firing triple arrows? But if we demanded that every combat criticism be addressed on realism, we would probably find that the fantasy genre would lose much of its charm.

I am not against arguing for armor. I'm against arguing for armor based on realism. Armor has always been around in fantasy and I could understand why people would want it to stay; it's an enjoyable aspect of the genre (for me at least) from an aesthetic perspective. But as I said, if one person argues against the lack of armor, if I argue against triple shot arrows, and a third person argues against dual wielding and we all do it based on realism, then where do we stand? In other words, why should Bioware take your criticism over mine, and over third person's?

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 novembre 2010 - 01:31 .


#163
Grumpy Old Wizard

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Il Divo wrote...
I am not against arguing for armor. I'm against arguing for armor based on realism. Armor has always been around in fantasy and I could understand why people would want it to stay; it's an enjoyable aspect of the genre (for me at least) from an aesthetic perspective. But as I said, if one person argues against the lack of armor, if I argue against triple shot arrows, and a third person argues against dual wielding and we all do it based on realism, then where do we stand? In other words, why should Bioware take your criticism over mine, and over third person's?


Any character that will not wear armor would be a moron and soon dead on the field of battle. Sure, a mage get by with his robes throwing fireballs and using other magic. But it is idiotic to have front line characters in bikinis. Totally unbelievable. Dragon Age is supposed to be a fantasy setting, not a cartoon setting.

Dragon Age is a fantasy game in that it is set in a setting where magic and "fantasy" races such as dwarves, elves, and Qunari exist as well as "fantasy" creatures such as dragons and the undead.

A person having the skill to rapidly fire a bow several times in a row is believable or even the skill to notch several arrows at a time. Weapon skill is believable.

Being too stupid to put armor over your underwear is not believable. At all.

#164
Ziggeh

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Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Any character that will not wear armor would be a moron and soon dead on the field of battle. Sure, a mage get by with his robes throwing fireballs and using other magic. But it is idiotic to have front line characters in bikinis. Totally unbelievable. Dragon Age is supposed to be a fantasy setting, not a cartoon setting.

It's not like theres a history of fantasy characters wearing impractical outfits or anything.

#165
Grumpy Old Wizard

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ziggehunderslash wrote...

Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Any character that will not wear armor would be a moron and soon dead on the field of battle. Sure, a mage get by with his robes throwing fireballs and using other magic. But it is idiotic to have front line characters in bikinis. Totally unbelievable. Dragon Age is supposed to be a fantasy setting, not a cartoon setting.

It's not like theres a history of fantasy characters wearing impractical outfits or anything.


Bioware evidently no longer wants Dragon Age to be considered a serious fantasy rpg. And wants to move more into a loony-tunes cartoon type fantasy if it wants front line fighters to run around in skimpy outfits that provide no protection during battle. They might as well put Porky Pig and Daffy Duck on the battlefield.

#166
cmathews03

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Not to distract from the conversation, but Natalie Portman is not and never has been in Pirates of the Caribbean. Perhaps you mean Keira Knightley?



Excuse the digression...

#167
upsettingshorts

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Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

serious fantasy 


Image IPB

#168
Ziggeh

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Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Bioware evidently no longer wants Dragon Age to be considered a serious fantasy rpg. And wants to move more into a loony-tunes cartoon type fantasy if it wants front line fighters to run around in skimpy outfits that provide no protection during battle. They might as well put Porky Pig and Daffy Duck on the battlefield.

Again, your idea of a serious fantasy rpg is at odds with multiple cases of actual representations of fantasy characters, so drawing conclusions from that is going to be flawed at best.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:41 .


#169
Sir JK

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Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...
Any character that will not wear armor would be a moron and soon dead on the field of battle.


That phrase there is the very heart of my argument for characters not wearing armour. Yes, anyone not wearing proper armour on the field of battle is placing their lives in the hands of pure chance (if they have to means to aqcuire it).

But the party isn't on a field of battle, now are they? ;)

When travelling, when short of funds, when running from a hostile army as quasi-civilians (refugees... but with weapons), when having lost everything they own in a shipwreck and/or just plain beloning to a non-armour wearing class (social class that is. Do not confuse that with mechanical class) then the absense of proper armour makes perfect sense.
Is it disadvantegous? Yes.
Is it gambling with their lives? Yes
Is it plausible? Very much so.

The absense of armour does not prohibit combat. But it does mean you have to be way better than your opponent and very lucky. But if you stand there without armour and the enemy copmes at you... all you can do is make the best out of the situation.

Modifié par Sir JK, 29 novembre 2010 - 05:07 .


#170
Il Divo

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Grumpy Old Wizard wrote...

Any character that will not wear armor would be a moron and soon dead on the field of battle. Sure, a mage get by with his robes throwing fireballs and using other magic.


So how is a Mage not wearing leather any different than a rogue? By all accounts here, leather barely inhibits body movement. Surely it shouldn't inhibit a mage's casting so much that he can't afford the extra protection, right?

But it is idiotic to have front line characters in bikinis. Totally unbelievable. Dragon Age is supposed to be a fantasy setting, not a cartoon setting.


You're right. Totally unbelievable. Much like weapons/armor which don't require maintenance. Much like how if I hit someone wearing cloth with a sword they don't instantly die. Much like how no one is affected by encumbrance and how no matter how many times a party member may go down, they get up like nothing has happened. Dragon Age is filled with unbelievabe aspects.

A person having the skill to rapidly fire a bow several times in a row is believable or even the skill to notch several arrows at a time. Weapon skill is believable.

Being too stupid to put armor over your underwear is not believable. At all.


Haha, this is hilarious. You can believe someone can effectively fire three arrows at once, but a Rogue having the skill to dodge a warrior wearing full plate somehow crosses the line? How many individuals have this skill you speak of? I'd certainly love to meet them.

Dragon Age is a fantasy game in that it is set in a setting where magic and "fantasy" races such as dwarves, elves, and Qunari exist as well as "fantasy" creatures such as dragons and the undead.


Yes, and it also takes an excessive number of liberties with feats of super human proportions. This was the case even with dnd. If you want 'realism', stop playing fantasy RPGs. 'Fantasy' does not just refer to the existence of elves, dwarves, etc. The fact that a small four-man party of adventurers can even feasibly take out a dragon should tell you something about 'realism'.

Modifié par Il Divo, 29 novembre 2010 - 05:09 .


#171
Matchy Pointy

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I'm just becasue I love a debate, and the whole "pants issue". But I must say, I find it hard that someone finds it hard to believe a rogue can doge incoming blows in ordinary clothes, but totally natural that a mage can shoot fireballs form their fingers. and for that matter, history is full of dodging and those with the most heavy armor winning, there is a reason the medieval knight didn't go on and conquer the world, you just go wearing armour like that in the heat of the dessert day and it wont be fun for you.

#172
Sylvius the Mad

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

But logic left the building when the outfits became - more or less - fixed because no such outfit will make logical sense in all situations.

That's a good reason not to have fixed outfits.

#173
upsettingshorts

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

But logic left the building when the outfits became - more or less - fixed because no such outfit will make logical sense in all situations.

That's a good reason not to have fixed outfits.


I concur.  But now that the decision is made, I'm going to judge the resulting outfits on different merits.  Namely, pure aesthetics.

#174
Sylvius the Mad

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

But logic left the building when the outfits became - more or less - fixed because no such outfit will make logical sense in all situations.

That's a good reason not to have fixed outfits.


I concur.  But now that the decision is made, I'm going to judge the resulting outfits on different merits.  Namely, pure aesthetics.

Isn't that decision also made?

If you're unwilling to judge the first decision using criteria that do matter to you just because it already failed that test, the same should apply to the outfits themselves.  BioWare has alreday decided which outfits the NPCs will wear (and even if they haven't, you don't get any input so they may as well have), so either you like them or you don't, and there's nothing you can do about them.

So why the different standard?

And regardless, my aesthetic preference is that the outfits make sense within the setting.  I will judge them based on that (and they will fail).

#175
upsettingshorts

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I think I covered it in an earlier discussion. I'm trying to remember the language I used then. I had a half-assed answer typed up here, but it was junk, and instead I'll go with the simple version. If as a player I have the freedom to modify the outfits of my companions, I bear at least some partial responsibility for being satisfied with how they look. If the outfits are fixed, I can only approve or disapprove. My influence has, objectively, been removed from the equation.

If the result of that is Bioware designed a unique outfit that I like as opposed to a generic outfit I would have chosen, it is, in terms of pure aesthetics from where I sit, at worst a sideways move - at best an actual improvement. If the result of that is Bioware designed a unique outfit that I dislike as opposed to a generic outfit I would have chosen, it's worse.

That's why, post announcement of fixed outfits, I am evaluating them subjectively on a case by case basis.

I mean, let's say DA:2 used DA:O's system and in this hypothetical example I wished I could have dressed Isabela in something more piratey and revealing.  DA:O's system, despite the fact it gave the player agency to make choices, did not offer that unique, ideal choice.  The fact DA:2 forces her into a revealing and piratey outfit in this specific case - it's what I would have put her in given the option to do so - it's a positive development.  If I wanted to put her into reasonable armor, it's not.  Hence the different standard.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 29 novembre 2010 - 06:56 .