969 réponses à ce sujet

[Morrigans God son]

Addai67 wrote...

Morrigans God son wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Ahh...that's right. Alistair was originally slated to be much older. It also explains alot of other things, such as people saying Alistair was a potential threat to Cailain's rule, which, for a bastard, would be a concern if Alistair was older, since succession traditionally and normally passes to the eldest child.

Wait... wait, what age is Alistair and what age is Cailain?

In the game, Alistair is 20-ish and Cailan 25-ish.

I had a thought about this on the commute home:  Alistair was supposed to be Katriel's.  (Actually the thought ran more like holy ****, Alistair was supposed to be Katriel's!!!)  I can't believe I never thought about it before, but the timeline fits and in the old forums Gaider said he had originally planned "something very different" for Katriel.

If that's true, then I'm glad they changed it since Fiona pwns Katriel hard.

Oh my god, Alistair is a babe! Wtf I'm confused, Is Fiona Alistair's mother or that dead woman from Origins, that we never got to meet because she's dead. (I've never read any books.)

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Well that's great, I thought it has been established what Loghain was thinking at Ostagar, and now apparently it isn't and people decide what they want to be canon. That's just wonderful, we are back at square 1.

AWWWWWWWWWW, KOP, I hear ya.

Personally, I do not care about VO notes, esp. as these were not updated regularly, I have no doubt. What the author has to say about his characters carries much more weight in my case. And what about the Loghain dialogue that was either cut or bugged, yet remains in the toolset? All of it belies the idea of Loghain leaving Cailan simply to grab power. IMO, anyway. 

[Wulfram]

I don't think any one is claiming that Loghain didn't believe he was doing the best thing for Ferelden by leaving the battlefield. Or that his actions weren't in part motivated by the belief that the battle was likely lost anyway.



But to me the game shows that he had resolved to abandon Cailan before the start of the battle, and this is reinforced by the voice over notes which were what the actor was portraying with his performance.

[Sarah1281]

Oh my god, Alistair is a babe! Wtf I'm confused, Is Fiona Alistair's mother or that dead woman from Origins, that we never got to meet because she's dead. (I've never read any books.)

We don't know. Alistair says it was a random maid but the Maric from the books doesn't seem the type to sleep with random maids. Loghain said that Alistair was never acknowledged because it would make Rowan look like a concubine but she was dead before Cailan was five and Alistair is clearly younger than Cailan.



Also, we know Fiona and Maric had a child who Fiona did not want to know she was the mother of because of her elven mage-ness (I believe she requested that he think she was a dead human like that random maid Alistair speaks of) and that the kid could avoid having pressure from Maric's life as well thus the nonrecogniztion. The timing fits for Alistair and the only complication is Goldanna. That proves that there actually was a maid they're claiming was the mother who died and they bribed Goldanna to keep quiet. It's possible that she really did die in childbirth as did the child and they took that as extraordinarily good timing and told Alistair and anyone who asked Alistair was her son. That still leaves why Goldanna thought that her mother's child was the king's but maybe she's seen him hanging around Redcliffe and her mother wouldn't tell her who the father of her own child was.



If Alistair isn't the child (who Duncan promised to look after) then there is another Theirin bastard running around but there's no confirmation as of yet.

[naledgeborn]

I think Alistair is Fiona's kid. His infatuation with magic despite being a templar seems to be a little more than coincidental. And, that mage offspring is given to the chantry also reinforces my belief. Isolde definitely had a hand in Alistair's fate but why is he given to the chantry of all things?

Modifié par naledgeborn, 30 novembre 2010 - 02:46 .

[Sarah1281]

naledgeborn wrote...

I think Alistair is Fiona's kid. His infatuation with magic despite being a templar seems to be a little more than coincidental. And, that mage offspring is given to the chantry also reinforces my belief. Isolde definitely had a hand in Alistair's fate but why is he given to the chantry of all things?

While I don't think an interest in magic would be hereditary, I do agree that that could be a clue the writers are giving us. The children of mages only seem to be taken when they're born in the tower. Fiona was a GW and thus outside of the Chantry's power but she could never leave the Wardens or they could apparently lock her up again and the official story is that Alistair's mother wasn't a mage. They probably sent Alistair to the Chantry because it seemed like a decent life for him. Bann Alfstanna's brother became a templar so it's not unheard of even among nobles. It's not like they realized that they were subjecting him to a life of lyrium addiction, after all.

[Rykoth]

Going back to those who responded to my first comment: That was my point

Eamon = commoner, noble by marriage
Loghain = commoner, now while he's not really recognized as noble, he does have that connection - his daughter is queen

Thought I'd clarify

[Wulfram]

Eamon is a noble by birth. His father was Arl. There's even a book in the game about his family's genealogy.

[Sarah1281]

...Why in the world would Eamon have become a noble and Arl of Redcliffe through marriage to Isolde? Yes, she is also of noble blood but her family was occupying his land during the occupation and she would have been removed had it not been for marrying Eamon.

Seriously, why in the world would you think that a commoner would marry King Maric?

And of course Loghain is a noble! He's Teyrn. He was made a noble by Maric even though he was born a commoner.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:05 .

[naledgeborn]

Eamon's "She doesn't have drop of noble blood" argument in regards to Anora/Loghain is FoS... By that logic Calenhad, the Alpha Therin, should have never been made King of Fereldan in the first place. He should just move to Orlais with Isolde and try his hands at their politics. I doubt the Empress' bards would be as generous as Loghain.

[Morrigans God son]

Goldanna looks a lot like Alistair in Origins too.

[Wulfram]

naledgeborn wrote...

Eamon's "She doesn't have drop of noble blood" argument in regards to Anora/Loghain is FoS... By that logic Calenhad, the Alpha Therin, should have never been made King of Fereldan in the first place. He should just move to Orlais with Isolde and try his hands at their politics. I doubt the Empress' bards would be as generous as Loghain.

Eamon said she doesn't have a drop of royal blood, not noble blood.

[TotoroTori]

Morrigans God son wrote...

Goldanna looks a lot like Alistair in Origins too.

Um not really....those two really don't have any shared traits



Boy I wasn't sure if to come in here or not. Personally I think Eamon is an ass who says no to everything.

My place with Eamon is that he demands tradition. Everything he stands for is tradition, even though he married a crazy lady he wants tradition. I see him sorta like my RL Grandpa to be honest.

[Wulfram]

Eamon being traditional or conservative seems to be a common opinion, but I don't see what it's based on.

Is there anything except his preference for inheritance by blood over inheritance by marriage?

[naledgeborn]

TotoroTori wrote...

Morrigans God son wrote...

Goldanna looks a lot like Alistair in Origins too.

Um not really....those two really don't have any shared traits



Boy I wasn't sure if to come in here or not. Personally I think Eamon is an ass who says no to everything.

My place with Eamon is that he demands tradition. Everything he stands for is tradition, even though he married a crazy lady he wants tradition. I see him sorta like my RL Grandpa to be honest.

Yes, he's all about tradition. But his crazy wife you mentioned happens to be Orlesian nobility. He bends that argument to his advantage also.

[Sarah1281]

Wulfram wrote...

Eamon being traditional or conservative seems to be a common opinion, but I don't see what it's based on.
Is there anything except his preference for inheritance by blood over inheritance by marriage?

What about thte fact that he would rather put someone who is untrained and even unacknowledged on the throne (and in the case of unhardened Alistair, REALLY not suited for the job) on the throne instead of someone who has been trained for these things and has experience running the country. While some people complain about Anora's treatment of the elves, I honestly don't think Eamon gives a **** about them. I think putting bloodline before quality (and since Eamon talks about not losing the Theirin bloodline if at all possible, it seems that he does fit into this category regardless of what kind of a ruler Alistair turns out to be) counts as being rather traditional and conservative.

There's also what Loghain has to say on the subject which, while speculation, does need to be taken into account because of how long the pair have known each other.

PC: Do you think Alistair will make a good king?
Loghain: Eamon is a shrewd man. He'll be advising the boy. They'll do all right, I suppose.
PC: You don't think Alistair can manage on his own?
Loghain: He had no education in governing, politics, or diplomacy. And though I know you don't wish to hear this, he doesn't strike me as a talented amateur. Your friend may get good advice from Eamon, but he's weak. All the banns know it. You can see them, a pack of wild dogs waiting for a bone. The first chance they get, they'll pry concessions out of him. They'll pick at the throne until it's only a gilded chair with no power or authority at all.
PC: Why would Eamon support Alistair's bid for the throne, then?
Loghain: Because Eamon, for all his merits, is a conservative man. He believes in tradition and inheritance, and would never see the daughter of a freeholder, however gifted, in power.
PC: I don't think Eamon is that petty.
Loghain: No? You might want to wonder, then, how a blood mage ended up employed by his household. How likely was it that only Isolde was aware of Connor's gift? Eamon knew. And he allowed it to be hushed up so the boy could remain heir. Better that than allow the arling to go to his childless younger brother, only to pass out of the hands of the Guerrin family altogether.

Obviously, Loghain's biased against Alistair but I don't doubt that some of the banns do think that since, well, pretty much everyone does. It's really Eamon that he knows, though, and I don't see why he would feel the need to lie about whether or not Eamon's conservative or not..

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Oh my god, Alistair is a babe! Wtf I'm confused, Is Fiona Alistair's mother or that dead woman from Origins, that we never got to meet because she's dead. (I've never read any books.)

We don't know. Alistair says it was a random maid but the Maric from the books doesn't seem the type to sleep with random maids. Loghain said that Alistair was never acknowledged because it would make Rowan look like a concubine but she was dead before Cailan was five and Alistair is clearly younger than Cailan.

Also, we know Fiona and Maric had a child who Fiona did not want to know she was the mother of because of her elven mage-ness (I believe she requested that he think she was a dead human like that random maid Alistair speaks of) and that the kid could avoid having pressure from Maric's life as well thus the nonrecogniztion. The timing fits for Alistair and the only complication is Goldanna. That proves that there actually was a maid they're claiming was the mother who died and they bribed Goldanna to keep quiet. It's possible that she really did die in childbirth as did the child and they took that as extraordinarily good timing and told Alistair and anyone who asked Alistair was her son. That still leaves why Goldanna thought that her mother's child was the king's but maybe she's seen him hanging around Redcliffe and her mother wouldn't tell her who the father of her own child was.
 

(Husband)

Yes

The only thing is Goldanna looks a lot more like Alistair then his reputed mom, who I believe was a brunette (It's been almost a year since I read that book).   If its a cover story its a good one, because I would never have imagined him as a half elf, son of a mage.

And yes I do image the DA folks potentially doing some "Return of the King" type game if they run out of ideas, since it sounds like noboby actually witnessed Maric's dead body.

[Sarah1281]

Alistair looks a great deal like Maric, though. Just how 'adaptive' are elven genes? Does it just make it so that the children are born human or do the looks favor the human parent as well?

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Eamon is a noble by birth. His father was Arl. There's even a book in the game about his family's genealogy.

(husband)

The problem is Eamon in game at some point refers to himself as "Commoner".   Which left me scratching my head a year ago, I was trying to figure out how he could be Rowan's brother and still be a Commoner (I thought for a while you had to be a noble to marry royalty).

The game social rules and history I think are all messed up.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:54 .

[Wulfram]

Thanks, the Loghain conversation at least explains where the "Eamon is conservative" stuff comes from.  Though Loghain comes off as having a rather large chip on his shoulder there.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Alistair looks a great deal like Maric, though. Just how 'adaptive' are elven genes? Does it just make it so that the children are born human or do the looks favor the human parent as well?

(Husband)

Yeah I know.   To me he looks like a cross between Maric and Goldanna...

On crossbreeeding all I know is half elves are considered "human" the elven part seems recessive.    And I don't think Gaider necessarily takes phenotype, dominant genes into account when describing what they look like.   (My wife says he just picks hair colors etc. that he think seem right for the character).

Modifié par Addai67, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:55 .

[Addai]

naledgeborn wrote...

Eamon's "She doesn't have drop of noble blood" argument in regards to Anora/Loghain is FoS... By that logic Calenhad, the Alpha Therin, should have never been made King of Fereldan in the first place. He should just move to Orlais with Isolde and try his hands at their politics. I doubt the Empress' bards would be as generous as Loghain.

That was back when there was no Ferelden, hence no such thing as royal blood.  Calenhad being the uniter of the clans puts the halo on his head.

Why are some people still talking about Eamon being a commoner?  Guerrin is as blue as it gets in Ferelden.  Hence why he screwed Alistair over so badly.  Friggin nobles.

P.S.  I'm still stuck on the Gaider- George Lucas comparison.  That is just so... wrong.  You cannot compare the man who wrote a romance that has thousands of women sitting slackjawed in front of their monitors with the guy who "wrote" that Anakin-Padme horror.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 novembre 2010 - 04:00 .

[Addai]

Why are some people still talking about Eamon being a commoner?  Guerrin
is as blue as it gets in Ferelden.  Hence why he screwed Alistair over
so badly.  Friggin nobles.


(Husband) Eamon himself says it.  I believe it occurs in the line where he discussed why he won't put himself up a candidate for the throne.  Right before or after he mentions that he has a claim based on Rowan's marriage.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 novembre 2010 - 04:04 .

[Sarah1281]

P.S. I'm still stuck on the Gaider- George Lucas comparison. That is just so... wrong. You cannot compare the man who wrote a romance that has thousands of women sitting slackjawed in front of their monitors with the guy who "wrote" that Anakin-Padme horror.

That pairing is a lot less painful if you believe that Anakin (possibly inadvertently) is using the Force to start up that relationship.

From TVtropes' WMG page...

Padme's love of Anakin was no more than a Jedi Mind Trick.

In Attack of the Clones, just as Anakin & Padme part ways with Obi-Wan, she says something along the lines of "I'm scared all of a sudden." Anakin then admits he's scared too. That was the first instance of him subconsciously using the Force to manipulate her emotions. After her initial rebuff of his advances, he begins to influence her mind directly. This would explain why Padme didn't flee in terror after he admitted to slaughtering an entire village of Sand People. She was pretty much under the influence of a Force Roofie by that point.

•Near the end of Episode III, his mental enslavement of her was finally broken by Obi-Wan when he met her at her apartment on Naboo. His presence on Mustafar kept Anakin from re-establishing his spell over her, so he Force-choked her out of frustration.

◦Sure, we know that the Jedi Mind Trick only works on the weak minded, but the person who assures Padme that she is too strong minded to fall for it is Anakin himself, who is hardly objective and might well simply be flattering her.

■Or lying so she won't guess.

◦Another similar theory is that Anakin did to Padme what Joruus C'Boath did to General Covell, withdrawing his influence from her when he thought she betrayed him was enough to make her brain "simply shut down" and lose the will to live.

Han and Leia is far better.



So I looked through the 'We should make Alistair king' conversation and this is all I found:

PC: You intend to put Alistair forward as king?

Eamon: Teagan and I have a claim through marriage, but we would seem opportunists, no better than Loghain. Alistair's claim is by blood.



He doesn't say anything about being a commoner, just points out he's not of royal blood and the closest he comes is Rowan. He is the brother of the wife of the former king's father. Anora is the wife of the former king which is a lot more direct of a connection.