969 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

erilben wrote...

An NPC says the throne goes to Anora now that Cailan is dead. She either "keeps her throne" or is "deposed" after the Landsmeet. Even David Gaider once said she doesn't have claim to the throne because she's already on the the throne, and that she's the ruling queen.

Some people in the game insist Anora is already queen the same way some insist that Loghain has a right to just grab the reins.  They have their perspective.  As for the DG quote, I'll need to see the actual.

If she's ruling queen, then the whole game plot is kerplooey.  So, I'm skeptical.

[ejoslin]

before the landsmeet, you actually do kill Howe, and under a certain circumstance (that circumstance being Alistair refusing to marry you), you DO declare yourself at the landsmeet Teyrna of Highever and there is no disputing it.

so you have, well, the current queen Consort -- also not considered a noble -- and apparently not considered the Teyrna of Gwaren, as loghain either gets stripped of all lands and titles or executed.

you have the bastard son of the king, never acknowledged.

and you have the Teyrn(a) of Highever

All three look to have shaky claims, but the HN is not weaker.

Edit; also, all three of the nobles you can speak to before the landsmeet acknowledge the Cousland at the rightful teyrn(a) of Highever.  one of them even offers military aid to, "Get your Teyrnir back."

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 décembre 2010 - 08:12 .

[Wereparrot]

erilben wrote...

An NPC says the throne goes to Anora now that Cailan is dead. She either "keeps her throne" or is "deposed" after the Landsmeet. Even David Gaider once said she doesn't have claim to the throne because she's already on the the throne, and that she's the ruling queen.

My point exactly.

Eamon=rebel=traitor.

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...
As for the Landsmeet, I think you may putting too much store by it? Maybe I am putting too much store by my own culture, but rarely has the monarch been decided by the people. King John, for one, by William Marshall.

No, that's the game lore.  From the codex:

The king is, in essence, the most powerful of the teyrns. Although Denerim was originally the teyrnir of the king, it has since been reduced to an arling, as the king's domain is now all of Ferelden. But even the king's power must come from the banns.

Nowhere is this more evident than during the Landsmeet, an annual council for which all the nobles of Ferelden gather, held for almost three thousand years except odd interruptions during Blights and invasions. The sight of a king asking for--and working to win--the support of "lesser" men is a source of constant wonder to foreign ambassadors.

[LupusYondergirl]

ejoslin wrote...

*cough* That is, Queen Regnant, not regent. But other than that, you're right. It surprises me that the Cousland is not considered a possibility as regnant but only as consort to the monarch. Really, a Cousland may have a stronger claim than Anora, and possibly Alistair as well (oooh, I know 100 people will tell me how wrong I am about that).

Oops.  But, in my defense, I'm a product of American public schools.

You may be right about that.  I think it would hinge on what Ferelden thinks about bastards, which is never really dealt with in any depth. 

William the Conqueror was illegitimate and it caused him no end to problems in Normandy when he was named Duke. To become king he, well, had to conquer an entirely new nation. (although he may have done so just so people wouldn't call him William the Bastard anymore...)
I can't think of any cases of illegitimate children being named to such a high role. It was customary for English kings to give titles to their illegitimate offspring, ensuring a comfortable upbringing, but that doesn't seem to be the case in Ferelden. And those titles wouldn't be nearly as high as heir to the throne.

Although... knowing royal and noble families will generally marry others from royal and noble families, if it turned out that the Cousland mother (Elenor? Can't recall, I honestly hate the human noble origin so I haven't played it in ages) is, say, the niece of Moira the Rebel Queen... Well, that would make the HN is a direct descendant of Calenhad in their own right, albeit with a different last name, and that would be a less tenuous connection to the royal line than what some people have used in the real world to claim thrones.
Although in that case it would probably be Fergus who has the claim, being the older brother.

Even if it isn't something so direct, sheer odds alone would say there is some common blood between the Cousland and Theirin lines.

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
As for the Landsmeet, I think you may putting too much store by it? Maybe I am putting too much store by my own culture, but rarely has the monarch been decided by the people. King John, for one, by William Marshall.

No, that's the game lore.  From the codex:

The king is, in essence, the most powerful of the teyrns. Although Denerim was originally the teyrnir of the king, it has since been reduced to an arling, as the king's domain is now all of Ferelden. But even the king's power must come from the banns.

Nowhere is this more evident than during the Landsmeet, an annual council for which all the nobles of Ferelden gather, held for almost three thousand years except odd interruptions during Blights and invasions. The sight of a king asking for--and working to win--the support of "lesser" men is a source of constant wonder to foreign ambassadors.

Ripped straight from medieval society, except that medieval kings fought their barons to get them in line. It made them weaker if their barons weren't on their side. Yet even barons were conservative about the line of succession, and rarely was there a king from a different house supported if the old one was deposed, let alone a bastard.

Ideal scenario: Anora and Warden-Cousland.

[Corker]

Wereparrot wrote...

Do we know all Ferelden's laws and customs? The English monarchy was established before the Normans. Treason was merely clarified by Edward III; he never thought of it. I have just discounted a quote of a law from 1702 for one made in 1351.

What is this I don't even.

1066 was a watershed.  It's just... you can't... Apples.  Oranges.  Cats and dogs, living together - mass hysteria!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ejoslin wrote...

before the landsmeet, you actually do kill Howe, and under a certain circumstance (that circumstance being Alistair refusing to marry you), you DO declare yourself at the landsmeet Teyrna of Highever and there is no disputing it.

so you have, well, the current queen Consort -- also not considered a noble -- and apparently not considered the Teyrna of Gwaren, as loghain either gets stripped of all lands and titles or executed.

you have the bastard son of the king, never acknowledged.

and you have the Teyrna of Highever

All three look to have shaky claims, but the HNF is not weaker.

The Cousland is only accepted as a consort, and only because they are marrying either Anora or Alistair, who have much stronger claims to the throne. If a cousland were to try and claim it on their own, it would likely be shot down. The Cousland needs the stronger claimant to get near the throne, and then only as a consort, the King or Queen being the ones aknowledged as the ruler.

Howe might be dead pre-landsmeet, because you killed him. However, technically, at that time, you are still an outlaw, and Loghain even brings up your entering Howe's home and assassinating him as a point to try and sway Landsmeet to his side. So you aren't the Teyrn/Teyrna of anything, really, your lands and family titles have not been restored. The only reason Landsmeet accepts you is because you are of noble liniage and human, and not a mage, so no major social boundaries are being violated.

Alistair, though a bastard, is still aknowledged by the Landsmeet as having Therin blood, and to the Eamon sympathizers (of which at that point, there is a signifigant portion, enough to make it 50/50 vs Loghain) that Therin blood, born legit or not, is reason enough to believe in backing his claim. To many nobles, bloodlines are everything.

Then you have Anora, who, as the king's widow, still sorta sitsa on the throne. Though of common lineage, everyone knew she was really running the country under cailan, and her father's own legend cancels out her lack of noble lineage. And Loghain's support base is just as big as Eamon's, meaning that Anora's claim also has alot of validity, and thus, they believe that noble lineage/bloodlines is not as important.

A Cousland, on the other hand, comes from a widely respected noble family which no longer exists and has been branded traitors at this point. Many are still willing to look at you as having noble blood, so they won't object to your marrying Anora/Alistair because you'll technically be just a sidekick.

But to actually claim the throne, you really have nothing on it, and would find few, if any, supporters in the Landsmeet, who are goin to throw their lot in with whatever candidate they think has the best claim and likelyhood of success.

[Wereparrot]

Corker wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Do we know all Ferelden's laws and customs? The English monarchy was established before the Normans. Treason was merely clarified by Edward III; he never thought of it. I have just discounted a quote of a law from 1702 for one made in 1351.

What is this I don't even.

1066 was a watershed.  It's just... you can't... Apples.  Oranges.  Cats and dogs, living together - mass hysteria!

Not much of a watershed. The Norman line was dead within four kings, giving way to the Plantagenets; an Anglo-Norman kingdom. The Normans assimilated themselves into our society, adopting many English customs, including, in the reign of Edward III, the language.

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

Ripped straight from medieval society, except that medieval kings fought their barons to get them in line. It made them weaker if their barons weren't on their side. Yet even barons were conservative about the line of succession, and rarely was there a king from a different house supported if the old one was deposed, let alone a bastard.

Ideal scenario: Anora and Warden-Cousland.

Yeah, but you're still not getting it.  Alistair is a Theirin.  In Ferelden, that is what you call a BFD.  Anora's not in the line of succession.  If Cailan had appointed her his heir, different story, though she still would have had to be confirmed by the LM.

As I said in the other thread, this is drawing on a Germanic tradition where the warlords elected the king, he had to answer to them (particularly in matters of war), he could be deposed if he wasn't up to snuff (especially if he lost wars), and sons could be forced to share rule.  The Fereldans are two shakes away from Alamarri tribesmen.  Alamarri < -- > Alemanni < -- > early Germanic tribes

[erilben]

Addai67 wrote...

erilben wrote...

An NPC says the throne goes to Anora now that Cailan is dead. She either "keeps her throne" or is "deposed" after the Landsmeet. Even David Gaider once said she doesn't have claim to the throne because she's already on the the throne, and that she's the ruling queen.

Some people in the game insist Anora is already queen the same way some insist that Loghain has a right to just grab the reins.  They have their perspective.  As for the DG quote, I'll need to see the actual.

If she's ruling queen, then the whole game plot is kerplooey.  So, I'm skeptical.

This is what he said about it.

David Gaider wrote...

Drider-man wrote...

I'm
not sure where you all got the idea that Anora was princess-consort or
anything of the sort. She was married to the King and is clearly
mentioned as being Queen Anora several times throughout the game.

I'll point out that as of the Landsmeet Anora does nat have a claim to the throne -- she is on the throne. She
is the ruling monarch of Ferelden, and whether she stays there or
whether Alistair successfully challenges her right to it is the
question.



Yes, she gets put into a tower at the end of the
Landsmeet if Alistair is becoming the sole king (or marrying the
player). She is not being arrested for treason or any such nonsense --
Loghain is the traitor, not Anora. She might have betrayed you in
the course of the Landsmeet, but she certainly didn't partake in any
treachery against the country (that anyone, including you, is aware of
anyhow).



So Alistair, the expected King-to-be, dies in the battle
at Denerim. What then? They keep Anora in prison, she who was removed
from the throne to begin with by Alistair's superior claim, or... what?
Put a Grey Warden on the throne, one who isn't the last Theirin and
whose main claim restson the fact she was about to marry the King-to-be? What do you think the nobility of Ferelden is going to do, exactly?



I get that some of you really wanted to
be the ruler of Ferelden. I'm sorry that the story didn't go the way
that you wanted, but denying the facts presented in the game because
they don't fit your desired outcome is a bit lame. This is what
happened. Chill out.

http://social.biowar...dex/443292&lf=8

[Wereparrot]

If you marry Anora, surely you give your name to the house?

[ejoslin]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

before the landsmeet, you actually do kill Howe, and under a certain circumstance (that circumstance being Alistair refusing to marry you), you DO declare yourself at the landsmeet Teyrna of Highever and there is no disputing it.

so you have, well, the current queen Consort -- also not considered a noble -- and apparently not considered the Teyrna of Gwaren, as loghain either gets stripped of all lands and titles or executed.

you have the bastard son of the king, never acknowledged.

and you have the Teyrna of Highever

All three look to have shaky claims, but the HNF is not weaker.

The Cousland is only accepted as a consort, and only because they are marrying either Anora or Alistair, who have much stronger claims to the throne. If a cousland were to try and claim it on their own, it would likely be shot down. The Cousland needs the stronger claimant to get near the throne, and then only as a consort, the King or Queen being the ones aknowledged as the ruler.

Howe might be dead pre-landsmeet, because you killed him. However, technically, at that time, you are still an outlaw, and Loghain even brings up your entering Howe's home and assassinating him as a point to try and sway Landsmeet to his side. So you aren't the Teyrn/Teyrna of anything, really, your lands and family titles have not been restored. The only reason Landsmeet accepts you is because you are of noble liniage and human, and not a mage, so no major social boundaries are being violated.

Alistair, though a bastard, is still aknowledged by the Landsmeet as having Therin blood, and to the Eamon sympathizers (of which at that point, there is a signifigant portion, enough to make it 50/50 vs Loghain) that Therin blood, born legit or not, is reason enough to believe in backing his claim. To many nobles, bloodlines are everything.

Then you have Anora, who, as the king's widow, still sorta sitsa on the throne. Though of common lineage, everyone knew she was really running the country under cailan, and her father's own legend cancels out her lack of noble lineage. And Loghain's support base is just as big as Eamon's, meaning that Anora's claim also has alot of validity, and thus, they believe that noble lineage/bloodlines is not as important.

A Cousland, on the other hand, comes from a widely respected noble family which no longer exists and has been branded traitors at this point. Many are still willing to look at you as having noble blood, so they won't object to your marrying Anora/Alistair because you'll technically be just a sidekick.

But to actually claim the throne, you really have nothing on it, and would find few, if any, supporters in the Landsmeet, who are goin to throw their lot in with whatever candidate they think has the best claim and likelyhood of success.

I understand that, but that doesn't mean I agree.

And again, you actually CAN point out, as a reason Alistair should marry you (if he refuses) that you're the Teynra of Highever.  It IS acknowledged by several nobles before then.

Anyway, i'm repeating myself.  I do understand what you are saying -- what I'm doing is disputing it

Edit; Ok, reading the dg quote, i have to say, he is not acknowledging what he himself set up -- a strong noble, whom the land WILL follow.

But, it is what it is.

Modifié par ejoslin, 06 décembre 2010 - 08:33 .

[Addai]

@erilben, thank you for posting that, though it's fubar. If Anora were the legal monarch, why does she need a regent?

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

If you marry Anora, surely you give your name to the house?

And?  You're still not of royal blood.

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

@erilben, thank you for posting that, though it's fubar. If Anora were the legal monarch, why does she need a regent?

I wondered that. Loghain's greed maybe?

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

If you marry Anora, surely you give your name to the house?

And?  You're still not of royal blood.

Does it matter?

[Sarah1281]

I understand that, but that doesn't mean I agree.



And again, you actually CAN point out, as a reason Alistair should marry you (if he refuses) that you're the Teynra of Highever. It IS acknowledged by several nobles before then.



Anyway, i'm repeating myself. I do understand what you are saying -- what I'm doing is disputing it

So you can declare yourself the teyrna even though Howe has heirs and his men are still occupying the teynir and the nobles, because they want to see you get your teynir back, don't argue. Doesn't this only come up when Alistair is refusing to marry you so it doesn't matter whether you are or not anyway?

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

If you marry Anora, surely you give your name to the house?

And?  You're still not of royal blood.

Does it matter?

To Fereldans it does.  Even Anora has her place by virtue of marriage to a Theirin.  As I said up above, Theirin= BFD.  It was Maric's survival, for instance, that rallied the rebellion to kick the Orlesians out.

[nos_astra]

erilben wrote...

This is what he said about it.

David Gaider wrote...
This.

And that's the reason why I think Word of God has to be treated with care.

Fanon makes a lot more sense than canon.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 décembre 2010 - 08:57 .

[Ryzaki]

^Very much so.



You start disregarding WoG once you get into certain fandoms. *coughHarryPottercough* or nothing makes any damn sense.

[ejoslin]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I understand that, but that doesn't mean I agree.

And again, you actually CAN point out, as a reason Alistair should marry you (if he refuses) that you're the Teynra of Highever. It IS acknowledged by several nobles before then.

Anyway, i'm repeating myself. I do understand what you are saying -- what I'm doing is disputing it

So you can declare yourself the teyrna even though Howe has heirs and his men are still occupying the teynir and the nobles, because they want to see you get your teynir back, don't argue. Doesn't this only come up when Alistair is refusing to marry you so it doesn't matter whether you are or not anyway?

You are a strong, charismatic leader, one that at least three nobles have acknowledged as the Teyrn(a) of highever, and where you yourself can call yourself as well. 

The landsmeet will already follow what you say.  Eamon has his own agenda, and the HN does not fit into that (how much do you want to bet that Eamon will be trying to arrange the marriage between Alistair and Celene if Alistair is made sole king).

But the voice of god has spoken.  

[nos_astra]

If you believe Gaider, then Anora is incompetent, there is not an interregnum (as I have unterstood the situation in Origins) but the reigning queen is completely incapable of ruling her country and keeping it from falling apart.

Way to go, Anora.

If you believe the fanon that Anora is merely a consort, and queen dowager after Cailan's death, then she needs to be promoted by the Landsmeet. Since Loghain grabs power, the Landsmeet can't do that and Anora remains powerless.

I'd rather see Anora powerless than incompetent.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 décembre 2010 - 09:06 .

[Ryzaki]

...Yeah well I learn more towards the incompetent side. Always have. All that hand wringing *sighs in annoyance*

[Wereparrot]

ejoslin wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

I understand that, but that doesn't mean I agree.

And again, you actually CAN point out, as a reason Alistair should marry you (if he refuses) that you're the Teynra of Highever. It IS acknowledged by several nobles before then.

Anyway, i'm repeating myself. I do understand what you are saying -- what I'm doing is disputing it

So you can declare yourself the teyrna even though Howe has heirs and his men are still occupying the teynir and the nobles, because they want to see you get your teynir back, don't argue. Doesn't this only come up when Alistair is refusing to marry you so it doesn't matter whether you are or not anyway?

You are a strong, charismatic leader, one that at least three nobles have acknowledged as the Teyrn(a) of highever, and where you yourself can call yourself as well. 

Indeed. Just because two traitors refuse to acknowledge you does not mean your title is not recognised by others. It's all about support, as I'm forever being told.