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[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...

They perceived the Darkspawn as the bigger threat and refused to follow Loghain against Orlais. That's the point of the civil war.

Except Loghain was not moving against Orlais at all (but was securing the border). In the Denerim cutscene in front of everyone, he doesn't even mention Orlais, he mentions the darkspawn and how they must provide troops to fight it.

The spark of the civil war was the events surrouding Ostagar and Loghain's heavy hand. It has nothing to do with the Bannorn wanting to fight the darkspawn. We know that they mobalised their forces against Loghain (as per cutscenes and rumors) and NOT against the darkspawn that are just south of them.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

No. You didn't. Just me making a tongue in cheek humor attempt.

Ah okay. I was worried I had slipped into my anger debate mode (despite...not being angry) and had insulted you.

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Except Loghain was not moving against Orlais at all (but was securing the border). In the Denerim cutscene in front of everyone, he doesn't even mention Orlais, he mentions the darkspawn and how they must provide troops to fight it.

The spark of the civil war was the events surrouding Ostagar and Loghain's heavy hand. It has nothing to do with the Bannorn wanting to fight the darkspawn. We know that they mobalised their forces against Loghain (as per cutscenes and rumors) and NOT against the darkspawn that are just south of them.

Securing the border by doing what? If he wants to secure the border an army should be available on short notice.

We know they fought against Loghain, but we don't know if they were attacking or defending themselves.

Modifié par klarabella, 06 décembre 2010 - 10:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
Securing the border by doing what? If he wants to secure the border an army should be ready and available on short notice.

We know they fought against Loghain, but we don't know if they were attacking or defending themselves.

By making sure the Orlesian army at the border doesn't going in. However, it's clear in the Denerim cutscene that he called for the Bannorn to provide their men to fight the darkspawn, he doesn't mention Orlais.

All rumors focus on the Bannorn fighting Loghain. Also, many gossipers and rumors speak of the land being defenseless against the darkspawn, as the two factions are fighting each other.
Teagan also talks about the bannorn being unable to help Redcliffe because they are too busy with the civil war, not with the darkspawn.

I see no mention or evidence that the bannorn was offering any organised effective resistance against the Darkspawn (especially sicne they have no leadership until Eamon is revived). And, by virtue of geography, were standing in the way of Loghain who couldnt' fight the darkspawn properly even if he wanted to.

As to whether they were fighting or defending themselves. In the second Denerim cutscene, Howe informs Loghain that the Bannorn are rallying their forces to fight him and that it would be civil war afterall. So, it's not as clear cut as defending themselves or aggressing. Both sides are aggressing the other. The bannorn can percieve Loghain's heavy hand as a declaration of war, and Loghain can percieve the bannorn's disobedience as declaration of war.
So it's equally true to say, imo, that both were defending themselves and aggressing the other.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 décembre 2010 - 10:38 .

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
By making sure the Orlesian army at the border doesn't going in. However, it's clear in the Denerim cutscene that he called for the Bannorn to provide their men to fight the darkspawn, he doesn't mention Orlais.

How does he secure the border? What army is there to prevent them from coming in?
So he wants them to fight darkspawn (that are so not a Blight) but not prepare to defend the country against Orlais? Funny, sounds like a plot hole to me.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
As to whether they were fighting or defending themselves. The second Denerim Cutscene, Howe informs Loghain that the Bannorn are rallying their forces to fight him and that it would be civil war afterall. So, it's not as clear cut as defending themsevles or aggressing. Both sides are aggressing the other. The bannorn can percieve Loghain's heavy hand as a declaration of war, and Loghain can percieve the bannorn's disobedience as declaration of war.

Something that maybe could have been prevented had Anora actually done anything other than just letting Daddy meddle in politics.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
How does he secure the border? What army is there to prevent them from coming in?
So he wants them to fight darkspawn (that are so not a Blight) but not prepare to defend the country against Orlais? Funny, sounds like a plot hole to me.

By dividing his forces. And we later find out that he believed that the Orlesians were the more imminent threat, so he would have devoted more to make sure that they don't come in and then deal with the darkspawn.

I don't see any plothole, armies can be divided to do several tasks.
The problem is Loghai's bad, albeit understandable, sense of pririty.
But nowhere do I see any evidence that the bannorn fought because of Orlais, it was not the reason for the civil war.

Something that maybe could have been prevented had Anora actually done anything other than just letting Daddy meddle in politics.

And what could she have done?
Kill daddy, and deprive Ferelden of its greatest general?
Tell him no? Loghain has his army, no won't work. That plus, Howe has his army and he supports Loghain. 

Anora has no military experience, it makes sense that in a time of crisis, Loghain assumes power and makes the  army answer to him directly. Unfortunately, Loghain is not that great a politician.
In that context, I really don't see what Anora could have done. She can only act once there is an alternative to Loghain (the Warden).

Ideally, Loghain should have used Anora more and he didn't. Anora can't do much about it.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 décembre 2010 - 10:50 .

[Ryzaki]

Killing Daddy at that point would've *helped* Fereldan greatest general or no. Just because he helped in the past doesn't make him useful forever.

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
By dividing his forces. And we later find out that he believed that the Orlesians were the more imminent threat, so he would have devoted more to make sure that they don't come in and then deal with the darkspawn.

I don't see any plothole, armies can be divided to do several tasks.
The problem is Loghai's bad, albeit understandable, sense of pririty.
But nowhere do I see any evidence that the bannorn fought because of Orlais, it was not the reason for the civil war.

At Ostagar there is this huge darkspawn raid moving north and east, the very one that is not a Blight and that he deemed unbeatable with the gathered forces.
At the border there are the Orlesian forces, obviously an army big enough to worry about a re-occupation.

If Ferelden has enough troops to beat one of these threats, that's believable. Enough troops to divide between two fronts? Unlikely.

How do you deal with it as a smart general? Antagonize the Bannorn by acting as impolitic as possible and make the unwinnable two front war a three front war. <_<

And what could she have done?

Have an opinion, make decisions, negotiations, gather intelligence, convince her father that this is madness or support him fully, instead of wringing her hands in fear someone might be out to kill her sorry ass. I thought she was a leader? How about ... um ... leading?

Modifié par klarabella, 06 décembre 2010 - 11:21 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

Killing Daddy at that point would've *helped* Fereldan greatest general or no. Just because he helped in the past doesn't make him useful forever.

How?
Who can replace him in Ferelden other than the Warden whom at that point nobody knew existed or thought him / her qualified?

Yes, experience matters. In all of Ferelden, Loghain has the most experience and the stronger credential in military matters. To kill him in a time of war when you have no other alternative to replace him and fill the vacuum he leaves is very unwise.

Furthermore, Anora's hold of the crown was tedious at that point. There was no guarantee that had Anora killed Loghain, all of the bannorn would have accepted her as queen. They fought over more stupid things before. To kill Loghain, the man who united most of Ferelden's army udner his banner, would have meant a very probably disunity of the army and Anora is not experience enough to fill that vacuum. 

Add to that Howe and his army. Should she have killed him too and thus leave Amaranthine, Highever and Denerim in a void as well?
Killing is all well and nice, as long as you don't do it left and right without considering the consequences.

Anora can only turn against her father once there was a clear alternative, someone who can lead Ferelden's army and the army of its allies. That's the Warden.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 décembre 2010 - 11:29 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
If Ferelden has enough troops to beat one of these threats, that's believable. Enough troops to divide between two fronts? Unlikely.

Sure, hence why Loghain probably was heavy handed, because he wanted an army asap to be able to manage the two threats, without debating about it, and ended up sparking a third.

It's not a question of Ferelden being able to deal with the two threats. It's a question of Loghain thinking that Ferelden should not succumb to either. And he is stubborn, for better or worse

klarabella wrote...
How do you deal with it as a smart general? Antagonize the Bannorn by acting as impolitic as possible and make the unwinnable two front war a three front war. <_<

Smart generals are not smart politicians more often than not.
That same incompetence can be attributed to the Bannorn, who also couldnt' be bothered to think properly.

Have an opinion, make decisions, negotiations, gather intelligence, convince her father that this is madness or support him fully, instead of wringing her hands in fear someone might be out to kill her sorry ass. I thought she was a leader? How about ... um ... leading?

She did try to convince her father. You wnat her to put a dagger up his throat?
Negotiate with whom? Gather intelligence about what?

Leaders need armies. She has no army. So she can't lead in the presence of someone who does have an army and who wants to lead himself.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Killing Daddy at that point would've *helped* Fereldan greatest general or no. Just because he helped in the past doesn't make him useful forever.

How?
Who can replace him in Ferelden other than the Warden whom at that point nobody knew existed or thought him / her qualified?

Yes, experience matters. In all of Ferelden, Loghain has the most experience and the stronger credential in military matters. To kill him in a time of war when you have no other alternative to replace him and fill the vacuum he leaves is very unwise.

Furthermore, Anora's hold of the crown was tedious at that point. There was no guarantee that had Anora killed Loghain, all of the bannorn would have accepted her as queen. They fought over more stupid things before. To kill Loghain, the man who united most of Ferelden's army udner his banner, would have meant a very probably disunity of the army and Anora is not experience enough to fill that vacuum. 

Add to that Howe and his army. Should she have killed him too and thus leave Amaranthine, Highever and Denerim in a void as well?
Killing is all well and nice, as long as you don't do it left and right without considering the consequences.

Anora can only turn against her father once there was a clear alternative, someone who can lead Ferelden's army and the army of its allies. That's the Warden.

...And yet even if you kill him and Howe.  Fereldan does just fine. The man at that point was more of a liability than an asset. At Ostagar he was necessary until he allowed them all to be slaughtered. At that moment he became a liability to the country and a danger to its safety as a whole.

And I don't get you. One moment Anora is beloved by the whole country the next the Landsmeet is willing to throw her off the throne? Which one is it? 

And killing Howe and Loghain would've given Anora far more advantages than keeping them alive. By killing Loghain and blaming Howe for the deed (please remember *no* one likes Howe) she could've gained her father's army along with the bannorn's and Howe's if she played her cards right. She was no poor damsel in distress. She just choose to be one.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 décembre 2010 - 11:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
...And yet even if you kill him Fereldan does just fine.

Because the Warden was there with the army he / she gathered and the monarch you firmly put in place via the Landsmeet. And because the Warden is placed as commander of the armies (symbolic or no, he / she was a unifier).

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
...And yet even if you kill him Fereldan does just fine.

Because the Warden was there with the army he / she gathered and the monarch you firmly put in place via the Landsmeet. And because the Warden is placed as commander of the armies (symbolic or no, he / she was a unifier).

And Anora can't do the same? 

Honestly? Do you consider the woman a capable leader or not? Because getting people to unite under you is one of the traits of a good leader.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
And I don't get you. One moment Anora is beloved by the whole country the next the Landsmeet is willing to throw her off the throne? Which one is it?

Both. Depends on context.
Anora needed the Therein name and she conitnues to base her legitimacy as Cailan's wife (she still speaks about the moron at the battle of Denerim). With Cailan dead without an appointed heir, her position is much mroe tedious.

Most nobles would have supported Anora anyways. That doesn't mean all of them would have.

Ryzaki wrote...
And killing Howe and Loghain would've given Anora far more advantages than keeping them alive. By killing Loghain and blaming Howe for the deed (please remember *no* one likes Howe) she could've gained her father's army along with the bannorn's and Howe's if she played her cards right. She was no poor damsel in distress. She just choose to be one.

Oh you make it sound so simple.
Yes, killing people left and right automatically means you get control of their armies. Sure.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
And Anora can't do the same? 

Honestly? Do you consider the woman a capable leader or not? Because getting people to unite under you is one of the traits of a good leader.

No, she  has no military experience to pull it off without help. And before you say the Warden has no experience either, you spend a year or two doing that, plus the Warden is supposed to be a god (plus, the treaties).

Yes, I consider her a good leader. But like I said before, she is not as capable during war time. She was not trained to rally armies under her.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 décembre 2010 - 11:40 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
And Anora can't do the same? 

Honestly? Do you consider the woman a capable leader or not? Because getting people to unite under you is one of the traits of a good leader.

No, she  has no military experience to pull it off without help. And before you say the WArden has no experience either, you speand a year or two doing that, plsu the Warden is supposed to be a god.

Yes, I consider her a good leader. But like I said before, she is not as capable during war time. She was not trained to rally armies under her.

Then she is not a good leader. A good leader to me is someone who can inspire in battle and in peace. Someone who understands sacrifice and loss even if they haven't been on the field of battle. This isn't a war for gold or glory it's a war for survival. For their home. If she can't inspire her troops to defend her land, their homeland from inhuman monsters she doesn't deserve to lead it.

And there are other generals than Loghain. There isn't "there can only be one!" in regards to making strageties. He was considered the best but there were others. Anora could've easily have charmed several generals into following her lead by offering glory and power. (If the rumors about her charm are true at least).

Edit: Also...as queen should she not be aware of some military strageties? I find that...odd to be the least especially considering her father is a general and the war with the darkspawn was immeninent.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 décembre 2010 - 11:45 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Then she is not a good leader. A good leader to me is someone who can inspire in battle and in peace. Someone who understands sacrifice and loss even if they haven't been on the field of battle. This isn't a war for gold or glory it's a war for survival. For their home. If she can't inspire her troops to defend her land she doesn't deserve to lead it.

While for me, military capacity is essential, it's not the only factor in determining good leadership.
And it's a non-issue for me, as my Cosuland handles these affairs as her consort. So I am not picking her on the basis of her military experience, she has none.

But what she does have is ressource management which is essential in war and which the game fails to take into account.

Ryzaki wrote...
And there are other generals than Loghain.

Who?
Give me a name of someone who already has the loyalty of most of Ferelden's army and has at least half the military credentials of Loghain.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 décembre 2010 - 11:48 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Edit: Also...as queen should she not be aware of some military strageties? I find that...odd to be the least especially considering her father is a general and the war with the darkspawn was immeninent.

How was it imminent?
Did anyone before know that the darkspawn were coming?

Why should they have bothered to train Anora in the military, if Loghain already filled that role?
She wasn't trained to do it, she was raised during peace time . Blame Maric.
The more pertinent question is. Why is Cailan an imbecile who has no understanding of war?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 06 décembre 2010 - 11:47 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

While for me, military capacity is essential, it's not the only facotr in determining leadership.
And it's a non-issue for me, as my Cosuland handles these affairs as her consort. So I am not picking her on the basis of her military experience, she has none.

Meh. I think any leader at all should study such things because sh*t hapens. You never know when that information will be useful.

Who?
Give me a name of someone who already has the loyalty of most of Ferelden's army and has at least half the military credentials of Loghain.

Yes because everyone knows if you don't hear the name of each and every noteworthy general they don't exist.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Edit: Also...as queen should she not be aware of some military strageties? I find that...odd to be the least especially considering her father is a general and the war with the darkspawn was immeninent.

How was it imminent?
Did anyone before know that the darkspawn were coming?

Why should they have bothered to train Anora in the military, if Loghain already filled that role?
She wasn't trained to do it, she was raised during peace time . Blame Maric.
The more pertinent question is. Why is Cailan an imbecile who has no understanding of war?

???

Cailan's expected to know war during peace with Loghain but Anora isn't? 

Seriously? They both should've known such things. It was foolish not to. Anoa claims to rule the country so she defintely should've known such things. Cailan at the very least is known not to care about such things such his lack of knowledge is expected, not acceptable but it makes sense.

How is war not immement? They gathered an army! They had backup waiting! What you think the Orlesian wardens being called was for tea and cupcakes? 

And Loghain isn't going to live forever. She can't rely on daddy all the time. She's supposed to be a ruler. Rulers don't go running to daddy every time someone attacks the country.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 décembre 2010 - 11:51 .

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Sure, hence why Loghain probably was heavy handed, because he wanted an army asap to be able to manage the two threats, without debating about it, and ended up sparking a third.

How did he want to manage? If both are a threat they are both a threat NOW, he can't manage both at once.

If Orlais are such an imminent threat they can't be left standing unattended at the border for months? Years?
If he's taking the Darkspawn seriously they can't be left unchecked for ... months? Years?

Ferelden is not strong enough to take care of both.
Orlais is his big concern, four legions of chevaliers at the border, OMG!
The darkspawn are largely ignored, despite large raids being unheard of and Blights being known for lasting years (if they are lucky).

What was his plan? He didn't seem to have one, other than ROOOAR, follow me!
That's what I meant with plot hole.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
She did try to convince her father. You want her to put a dagger up his throat?

Yes, for example. I'm sure Anora has her connections.

Negotiate with whom? Teagan? Bryland? Alfstanna? About how to appease the Bannorn?
Gather intelligence about what? Orlais? The Blight? Which one is the bigger threat?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Meh. I think any leader at all should study such things because sh*t hapens. You never know when that information will be useful.

The more pertinent thing to do then, is to complain about Cailan and ask why no one bothered to make a man out of him.

Yes because everyone knows if you don't hear the name of each and every noteworthy general they don't exist.

When everyone is saying that they are looking at Loghain to make the difference and there is absolutely no mention of anyone else possessing half his military genius, then yes.
They might exist. Question is, are they as good or even half as good as Loghain? Do they have the capacity to unite the armies udner their banner?

In Ferelden, I see no one capable of filling that niche, other than the Warden.
Bryce might have, but he's dead. Eamon? Maybe, but he was poisoned.

[Massman123]

IMO Eamon is exonerated by the mere fact that he will stand alongside your warden in armed combat against any odds at the landsmeet if loghain and whatever allies you haven't been able to turn to your cause fight you. Hell in some situations its just your squad, Eamon and yourself against all of those goons. Any man who will fight in such a situation is an honorable man

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
???

Cailan's expected to know war during peace with Loghain but Anora isn't? 

Since he can't be bothered with law and administration, then at least he can be useful in something.

Ryzaki wrote...
How is war not immement? They gathered an army! They had backup waiting! What you think the Orlesian wardens being called was for tea and cupcakes? 

Yes, because a few weeks / months are enough for Anora to learn everything she needs to know about warfare <_<

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


When everyone is saying that they are looking at Loghain to make the difference and there is absolutely no mention of anyone else possessing half his military genius, then yes.
They might exist. Question is, are they as good or even half as good as Loghain? Do they have the capacity to unite the armies udner their banner?

In Ferelden, I see no one capable of filling that niche, other than the Warden.
Bryce might have, but he's dead. Eamon? Maybe, but he was poisoned.

Yes because everyone looks at the next best guy when sh*t hits the fan? No you don't. You look at the legend first.

They're so busy fighting a civil war once Loghain screws up that no other generels are mentioned.

Loghain's skill doesn't even matter at that point though. He's massively screwed up. He's useless at that point because he's continuing to screw up and drag the country down with him.