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Let's hate on Eamon Guerrin.


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#401
Ryzaki

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Since he can't be bothered with law and administration, then at least he can be useful in something.


True that. But frankly I think they were both idiots for not learning that sort of thing.

Yes, because a few weeks / months are enough for Anora to learn everything she needs to know about warfare <_<


Alsoa few months isn't enough to know everything she needs to know. But the basics? Yes. And she should've kept learning even after Loghain took her throne in case she needed it. Instead she handwrings.

Right because we all know no royal children (remember Anora always thought she was going to be Queen) in the real world studied warfare and military stragety. :mellow:

#402
Ryzaki

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On another note...we haven't discussed this before have we?



Sorry if I sound a little b*tchy. Not having a good day and I don't mean to take it out on you KoP.

#403
KnightofPhoenix

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klarabella wrote...
How did he want to manage? If both are a threat they are both a threat NOW, he can't manage both at once.


And so what would you  have him do? Have a defeatist attitude and say he can't do it and screw it?

No one said his task was easy. And no one said he had an elaborate master plan to follow, he was reacting and not acting. But he is the kind who doesn't want to admit defeat unless it's beaten in him and so he thought he should deal with both threats. Whether he was able to or not is not the issue, he wouldn't have stopped even if he knew he can't do it. And ifhe cna't do it, chances are no one inthe country can, except the Warden.


Yes, for example. I'm sure Anora has her connections.

Negotiate with whom?
Teagan? Bryland? Alfstanna? About how to appease the Bannorn?
Gather intelligence about what? Orlais? The Blight? Which one is the bigger threat?


Negotiations were not possible if Loghain was carrying about his heavy handed methods. It would have required Anora to plot behind his back and that returns us back to square one. There was no alternative to Loghain.

What intelligence about Orlais should be gathered other than the 4 legions of Chevaliers amassing at the border?
You want her to send spies to the imperial court to somehow find out what Celene is thinking? Yes, that';s implausible.

Gather intelligence about the blight how? What good would that do?
The only way that would be useful is had she sent scouts to the deep roads to find out abotu the archdemon and the hordes amassing there. How could she have done that when Orzammar is barred off?

#404
KnightofPhoenix

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Ryzaki wrote...
Alsoa few months isn't enough to know everything she needs to know. But the basics? Yes. And she should've kept learning even after Loghain took her throne in case she needed it. Instead she handwrings.


Because military skills are learned in learned in sitting at a desk and reading books, right?
You think Loghain would have allowed her to take effective command?

Ryzaki wrote...
Right because we all know no royal children (remember Anora always thought she was going to be Queen) in the real world studied warfare and military stragety. :mellow:


Well, blame Maric, he was the one who gave her the finest education.

#405
Ryzaki

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Both. Depends on context.
Anora needed the Therein name and she conitnues to base her legitimacy as Cailan's wife (she still speaks about the moron at the battle of Denerim). With Cailan dead without an appointed heir, her position is much mroe tedious.

Most nobles would have supported Anora anyways. That doesn't mean all of them would have.


Most is normally enough to avert a civil war and allow Anora t keep her throne. You just need a majority at the Landsmeet.

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh you make it sound so simple.
Yes, killing people left and right automatically means you get control of their armies. Sure.


Really? You're telling m killing her father and framing Howe for the deed wouldn't have gotten her father's armies enraged enough to unite under her and attack Howe? And after he's been dispatched his men would've chosen to die/rebel rather than join under the queen and the nobles she had at her side? 

#406
KnightofPhoenix

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Ryzaki wrote...

On another note...we haven't discussed this before have we?

Sorry if I sound a little b*tchy. Not having a good day and I don't mean to take it out on you KoP.


I think we have.

Don't worry, I am not having a good day either. It's snowing and I hate it :D
Plus I had a final exam to do today and I am tired  as hell.

#407
Ryzaki

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Because military skills are learned in learned in sitting at a desk and reading books, right?
You think Loghain would have allowed her to take effective command?


No they aren't. But she doesn't need military skills to be inspiration.

Also you're telling me you can't understand some strageties, and tatics of warfare by reading historical accounts? It would've been more effective if she had learned in person sur but I don't expect her to actually lead the charge in a battle. Merely get the concept of what might happen.

And once again I don't respect a leader who sits down when their daddy tells them to despite ruling a country. Thats nonsense. She was far to old to be letting her father treat her like a child.

Well, blame Maric, he was the one who gave her the finest education.


Fereldan certainly doesn't have the sharpest knives in the rack does it. Seems like Flemeth is the only one with half a brain at times.

#408
KnightofPhoenix

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Ryzaki wrote...
Most is normally enough to avert a civil war and allow Anora t keep her throne. You just need a majority at the Landsmeet.


A majority Loghain already had, didn't do him good.
By the Landsmeet, they all agree finally to unite because of the crap they went through. Before that, there is no guarantee that if the majority sided with Anora, the rest would have complied.

Really? You're telling m killing her father and framing Howe for the deed wouldn't have gotten her father's armies enraged enough to unite under her and attack Howe? And after he's been dispatched his men would've chosen to die/rebel rather than join under the queen and the nobles she had at her side?


No, since Howe's army happens to be in Denerin, Armaranhine and Highever. Doign so, would just mean a third front.

Unless she happens to assassiante Howe  at the same time and somehow get this men to not do anything. That implies that Anora had to be a mastermind of David Xanatos' level. Unfortuantely, that can't happen.

#409
Ryzaki

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KnightofPhoenix wrote..

I think we have.

Don't worry, I am not having a good day either. It's snowing and I hate it :D
Plus I had a final exam to do today and I am tired  as hell.


Snowing? *is jealous* I love snow.

Gah. Damn you KoP. You just reminded me of those 5 papers I have due in 3 days. :crying:

Damn my procrastinating! Damn it to hell! :crying:

#410
Ryzaki

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

A majority Loghain already had, didn't do him good.
By the Landsmeet, they all agree finally to unite because of the crap they went through. Before that, there is no guarantee that if the majority sided with Anora, the rest would have complied.


He did not have a majority of support at the landsmeet. Teagan calling him out, along with the civil war itself is pretty telling. They supported him as a general. Not as a regent. He lost a lot of support when Cailan died and he announced his regency.

Ostagar itself was pretty suspicious and his condemnation of the Wardens was pretty damning. (Most citizens hold them in high regard).

No, since Howe's army happens to be in Denerin, Armaranhine and Highever. Doign so, would just mean a third front.

Unless she happens to assassiante Howe  at the same time and somehow get this men to not do anything. That implies that Anora had to be a mastermind of David Xanatos' level. Unfortuantely, that can't happen.


A second front since Loghain would be dead and the reason for the civil war gone. It would depend on how much support she could garner and how quickly.

And how big Howe's army is. (And if there's any of the Cousland army within it. DId he kill them all or did he force them to work for him?) compared to Loghain's and her allies. She has a pretty decent chance of winning in my mind.

Also his army being split in three plaes means it's weaker than the unifed front she would have if she stopped the civil war and went after each group.

Honestly I'm the sort of person who uses a lot of force though so maybe it's just my bullheaded nature.

Of course she would have had to scheme this out for months if not years and strike at just the right time (waiting for a lull in Howe's defenses, and such).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2010 - 12:14 .


#411
KnightofPhoenix

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Ryzaki wrote...
Also you're telling me you can't understand some strageties, and tatics of warfare by reading historical accounts? It would've been more effective if she had learned in person sur but I don't expect her to actually lead the charge in a battle. Merely get the concept of what might happen.


No.
I read dozens of battles and I understand the concepts really well.
Give me an army now, and I would lead it to ruin. And I have a huge ego btw, and I know I would fail.
Because it takes more than understanding the concepts.

And just because I understand the concepts, doesn't mean the army is going to embrace me as their unquestioned commander, when there is a legend like Loghain right next to me. And it surely doesn't mean that killing Loghain in some elaborate scheme automatically means I assume leadership.


Fereldan certainly doesn't have the sharpest knives in the rack does it. Seems like Flemeth is the only one with half a brain at times.


She would find it insulting to be considered a Fereldean most likely.

#412
KnightofPhoenix

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Ryzaki wrote...
He did not have a majority of support at the landsmeet. Teagan calling him out, along with the civil war itself is pretty telling. They supported him as a general. Not as a regent. He lost a lot of support when Cailan died and he announced his regency.


Loghain wins the Landsmeet by default if you don't reveal his crimes.
If you use the Ostagar argument, you lose points.

Honestly I'm the sort of person who uses a lot of force though so maybe it's just my bullheaded nature.


Ironically, you sound like Loghain now. :D

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 12:15 .


#413
Persephone

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Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Since he can't be bothered with law and administration, then at least he can be useful in something.


True that. But frankly I think they were both idiots for not learning that sort of thing.

Yes, because a few weeks / months are enough for Anora to learn everything she needs to know about warfare <_<


Alsoa few months isn't enough to know everything she needs to know. But the basics? Yes. And she should've kept learning even after Loghain took her throne in case she needed it. Instead she handwrings.

Right because we all know no royal children (remember Anora always thought she was going to be Queen) in the real world studied warfare and military stragety. :mellow:


I could be wrong but I know of many royal children, especially female ones, who never studied warfare or strategy. Elizabeth I. (Yes, her again) never studied those things & beat the most powerful country of her time by.....using capable, brilliant strategists.

#414
KnightofPhoenix

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Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote..

I think we have.

Don't worry, I am not having a good day either. It's snowing and I hate it :D
Plus I had a final exam to do today and I am tired  as hell.


Snowing? *is jealous* I love snow.

Gah. Damn you KoP. You just reminded me of those 5 papers I have due in 3 days. :crying:

Damn my procrastinating! Damn it to hell! :crying:


I still have 3 exams to go.
And yep, I procrastinated a lot this year. Damn PC version, not letting me study!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 12:16 .


#415
Ryzaki

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
No.
I read dozens of battles and I understand the concepts really well.
Give me an army now, and I would lead it to ruin. And I have a huge ego btw, and I know I would fail.
Because it takes more than understanding the concepts.

And just because I understand the concepts, doesn't mean the army is going to embrace me as their unquestioned commander, when there is a legend like Loghain right next to me. And it surely doesn't mean that killing Loghain in some elaborate scheme automatically means I assume leadership.


They don't know she killed Loghain. THey see her as his daughter, manipulated by Howe and had her father killed by someone her father trusted.

Also: I'm no suggesting she has the ability to lead the army personally. (Honestly Loghain should have generals under him or at least someone who knows basic stragety). She simply needs someone wise enough to keep the lid on the pot and she can stand and give inspiration speeches while they make the battle plan. I'm not suggesting she jump in platemail line up a plan and then follow it through with a sword in hand. That's...not how it goes.

I hate using RW examples but the US Pres gives inspirational speeches and looks pretty for the soldiers while generals and other tacticians do the important bits.

Unless you mean they feel no loyalty at all to her or Loghain or not enough to see Loghain's murderer dead.


She would find it insulting to be considered a Fereldean most likely.


I don't blame her. The whole nation seems to be filled with idiots.

#416
Ryzaki

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Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Since he can't be bothered with law and administration, then at least he can be useful in something.


True that. But frankly I think they were both idiots for not learning that sort of thing.

Yes, because a few weeks / months are enough for Anora to learn everything she needs to know about warfare <_<


Alsoa few months isn't enough to know everything she needs to know. But the basics? Yes. And she should've kept learning even after Loghain took her throne in case she needed it. Instead she handwrings.

Right because we all know no royal children (remember Anora always thought she was going to be Queen) in the real world studied warfare and military stragety. :mellow:


I could be wrong but I know of many royal children, especially female ones, who never studied warfare or strategy. Elizabeth I. (Yes, her again) never studied those things & beat the most powerful country of her time by.....using capable, brilliant strategists.


...This is Fereldan where females went into battle. I doubt historical female children not studying warfare or stragety would hold much water. Not to mention the country had just gotten over the Orlesian occupation which had a chance of happening again. Not having your children prepared to wage a war if necessary in my mind is foolishness.

Also I did suggest using brilliant strategists but...Fereldan's pretty damn...dumb.

#417
Ryzaki

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Loghain wins the Landsmeet by default if you don't reveal his crimes.
If you use the Ostagar argument, you lose points.


Really? 

Wow. More points in the Fereldan being too stupid to save itself plot.

Gah. I wish I could head for Orlais. <_<

Ironically, you sound like Loghain now. :D


Never!  :o

#418
Persephone

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Maybe I am a bit too emotional for my own good......but whether or not killing Loghain would do any good....(I never liked brute force as a solution)

Am I the only one shuddering at the idea of Anora having her father (Whom she clearly loves) killed? Some lines should not be crossed. Were I a Fereldan cititzen...the idea of being ruled by someone capable of such a deed would not make me feel anything between safe and proud. People such as Caligula and Nero did such things and aren't held in high regard for it. I am a Daddy's gal myself (And I am older than Anora) and he is still my hero and....

I guess I wouldn't make a very good ruler. :whistle:

#419
KnightofPhoenix

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Ryzaki wrote...
I hate using RW examples but the US Pres gives inspirational speeches and looks pretty for the soldiers while generals and other tacticians do the important bits.


Problem is, I see no one capable of filling Loghain's niche.
Yes, Ferelden proves its idiocy again by relying on one man only.

I don't see military establishments and academies designed to train commanders. I see nobles who have some soldiers, but who don't have to have any sense of strategy and military acumen.

I mean if they didn't even bother to teach Cailan anything about this (or anything at all for that matter), I don't see any noble bothering to learn that either. There is only Loghain, I see no one else and have no reason to believe that there is someone else, other than Bryce who is dead and Eamon who is sick.

Which isn't that untrue. Armies in antiquity > medieval ones in terms of tactics.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 12:27 .


#420
Ryzaki

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Persephone wrote...

Maybe I am a bit too emotional for my own good......but whether or not killing Loghain would do any good....(I never liked brute force as a solution)

Am I the only one shuddering at the idea of Anora having her father (Whom she clearly loves) killed? Some lines should not be crossed. Were I a Fereldan cititzen...the idea of being ruled by someone capable of such a deed would not make me feel anything between safe and proud. People such as Caligula and Nero did such things and aren't held in high regard for it. I am a Daddy's gal myself (And I am older than Anora) and he is still my hero and....

I guess I wouldn't make a very good ruler. :whistle:


Not really. But I wouldn't either so don't feel bad. I couldn't lead someone to lunch. I end up without any pants. :innocent:

Having a leader who would place the welling being of the country over her father's life would make me very proud and feel very safe. To me it would mean that she really was thinking about the betterment f the country and not just herself.

#421
Ryzaki

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Problem is, I see no one capable of filling Loghain's niche.
Yes, Ferelden proves its idiocy again by relying on one man only.

I don't see military establishments and academies designed to train commanders. I see nobles who have some soldiers, but who don't have to have any sense of strategy and military acumen.

I mean if they didn't even bother to teach Cailan anything about this (or anything at all for that matter), I don't see any noble bothering to learn that either. There is only Loghain, I see no one else and have no reason to believe that there is someone else, other than Bryce who is dead and Eamon who is sick.


Eh. I just see it as since it's a game they don't give you irrevelant details. And since Anora doesn't try to kill Loghain having a general to replace him is irrevelant. (And the PC replaces Loghain if they kill him).

Honestly Fereldan's retarded.

...I just want to leave it to the darkspawn now. :pinched:

Which isn't that untrue. Armies in antiquity > medieval ones in terms of tactics.


...Sad that.

Makes me think people get dumber the more time goes on. I know that's not true but I look outside and wonder.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2010 - 12:30 .


#422
Persephone

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Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Since he can't be bothered with law and administration, then at least he can be useful in something.


True that. But frankly I think they were both idiots for not learning that sort of thing.

Yes, because a few weeks / months are enough for Anora to learn everything she needs to know about warfare <_<


Alsoa few months isn't enough to know everything she needs to know. But the basics? Yes. And she should've kept learning even after Loghain took her throne in case she needed it. Instead she handwrings.

Right because we all know no royal children (remember Anora always thought she was going to be Queen) in the real world studied warfare and military stragety. :mellow:


I could be wrong but I know of many royal children, especially female ones, who never studied warfare or strategy. Elizabeth I. (Yes, her again) never studied those things & beat the most powerful country of her time by.....using capable, brilliant strategists.


...This is Fereldan where females went into battle. I doubt historical female children not studying warfare or stragety would hold much water. Not to mention the country had just gotten over the Orlesian occupation which had a chance of happening again. Not having your children prepared to wage a war if necessary in my mind is foolishness.

Also I did suggest using brilliant strategists but...Fereldan's pretty damn...dumb.


It would have been Cailan's job, however. Anora was supposed to be his baby-machine & administrator because the idiot wasn't only bored by planning strategies and whined about there being no Archie sightings but also put ALL the responsibility on his wife's and Loghain's shoulders, yet he pulls rank when he doesn't get his idiotic way. Why Loghain put up with such a brat for so long I'll never understand.

#423
Ryzaki

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...



I still have 3 exams to go.
And yep, I procrastinated a lot this year. Damn PC version, not letting me study!


LOL

At least you didn't get a brand new PC and then went "ooh pretty graphics!" and replayed all your PC games on high res.

But it was time well spent! :lol:

#424
nos_astra

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And so what would you  have him do? Have a defeatist attitude and say he can't do it and screw it?

Find out who is the bigger threat. Can't be too hard to get an impression over the course of several months. One good look at Lothering should have been enough. Make a choice, a hard one, like giving in to his daughter or Teagan and accept that Ferelden might not be saved from both threats. Decide if he would prefer his country re-occupied or whiped off the map.

He refused to make this choice until the moment it was taken off his hands.

Some general he is.


Negotiations were not possible if Loghain was carrying about his heavy handed methods. It would have required Anora to plot behind his back and that returns us back to square one. There was no alternative to Loghain.

Sure, there was. Of course, no one else had the Hero of River Dane thing going for them but no one is born that way. Before the occupation Loghain was a mere farmer's son himself. Do you think no one else in Ferelden is at least promising?

What intelligence about Orlais should be gathered other than the 4 legions of Chevaliers amassing at the border?
You want her to send spies to the imperial court to somehow find out what Celene is thinking? Yes, that';s implausible.

Why? Celene obviously genuinely prepared for fighting a Blight, not invading Ferelden. You'd think there would be some kind of evidence, hints,

Gather intelligence about the blight how? What good would that do?

Send scouts to Ostagar or Lothering, find proof that this is a Blight, so she might convince Daddy to stop acting like a lunatic.



The only thing is (and it amuses me to no end) without Loghain screwing up so beautifully the Blight might have been a lot longer. I'm not going to credit him for that, though.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 décembre 2010 - 12:32 .


#425
KnightofPhoenix

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Ryzaki wrote...
Eh. I just see it as since it's a game they don't give you irrevelant details.


t's a game that doesn't bother to potray war as it really is, burt rather goes on the Tolkein theme, that wars are all about nice charges and inspirational speeches.

War is about ressource allocation and management, propagandan, troop maneuvres, deception, terrain advantages, weather conditions...etc.

But no, let's all just charge at Denerim without any sense of strategy.
The irony is that the darkspawn showed more strategy and cunning than us (all antagonists do and protagonists win because they are supposed to <_<).