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[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

It would have been Cailan's job, however. Anora was supposed to be his baby-machine & administrator because the idiot wasn't only bored by planning strategies and whined about there being no Archie sightings but also put ALL the responsibility on his wife's and Loghain's shoulders, yet he pulls rank when he doesn't get his idiotic way. Why Loghain put up with such a brat for so long I'll never understand.

True. Honestly Cailan should've been leading and studying military tatics (Particularly under Loghain) and seriously he is annoying.

Still I don't think he should've died for it.

People need to stop having one legitimate kid for cases like this.

"...He's retarded chose the other kid." 

"But your majesty the other kid pulls the wings of butterflies!"

"Yeah but he has a brain!" 

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Maybe I am a bit too emotional for my own good......but whether or not killing Loghain would do any good....(I never liked brute force as a solution)

Am I the only one shuddering at the idea of Anora having her father (Whom she clearly loves) killed? Some lines should not be crossed. Were I a Fereldan cititzen...the idea of being ruled by someone capable of such a deed would not make me feel anything between safe and proud. People such as Caligula and Nero did such things and aren't held in high regard for it. I am a Daddy's gal myself (And I am older than Anora) and he is still my hero and....

I guess I wouldn't make a very good ruler.

Not really. But I wouldn't either so don't feel bad. I couldn't lead someone to lunch. I end up without any pants. :innocent:

Having a leader who would place the welling being of the country over her father's life would make me very proud and feel very safe. To me it would mean that she really was thinking about the betterment f the country and not just herself.

Not me. I do not trust people who murder family members. Period. Besides, I fail to see how she could have managed without a commander of at least half Loghain's experience & brilliance in the long run. As for Anora having to do so....I doubt any Fereldan noblewoman or even Empress Celene could have managed that crisis without either Loghain or the Warden as a military leader.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
t's a game that doesn't bother to potray war as it really is, burt rather goes on the Tolkein theme, that wars are all about nice charges and inspirational speeches.

War is about ressource allocation and management, propagandan, troop maneuvres, deception, terrain advantages, weather conditions...etc.

But no, let's all just charge at Denerim without any sense of strategy.
The irony is that the darkspawn showed more strategy and cunning than us (all antagonists do and protagonists win because they are supposed to <_<).

...LOL

Particularly funny when you read the flank your enemies tooltip.

And yes war has a bit of just plain luck involved as well (but then everything involves a little bit of luck)

And yes charging in Denerim was pretty funny. But it was awesome.

Thinking about it the Darkspawn really do show mor stragety and cunning. That's sort of depressing.

Good thing we have WardenSue on our side.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

Not me. I do not trust people who murder family members. Period. Besides, I fail to see how she could have managed without a commander of at least half Loghain's experience & brilliance in the long run. As for Anora having to do so....I doubt any Fereldan noblewoman or even Empress Celene could have managed that crisis without either Loghain or the Warden as a military leader.

See I can't make distinctings like that. Killing someone is killing someone period. Just because you are related to them doesn't make it any worse/better. (Unless it's a mercy kill).

Loghain's experience and brilliance once again. Do not help defeat the blight. They help it spread to be frank.

She needed a military leader, and someone to inspire. The warden was both. She could've gotten the Warden on her side easily after Loghain was dealt with because Howe has no claim to the throne and no one in their right mind would let him near it. Without Loghain the Warden has no need to threaten her power and with Anora's full cooperation? Absolutely no reason to.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2010 - 12:37 .

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Eh. I just see it as since it's a game they don't give you irrevelant details.

It's a game that doesn't bother to potray war as it really is, burt rather goes on the Tolkein theme, that wars are all about nice charges and inspirational speeches.

War is about ressource allocation and management, propagandan, troop maneuvres, deception, terrain advantages, weather conditions...etc.

But no, let's all just charge at Denerim without any sense of strategy.
The irony is that the darkspawn showed more strategy and cunning than us (all antagonists do and protagonists win because they are supposed to <_<).

Equally sad is that I've seen a children's book series show a far less idealistic and more strategical depiction of war.

And once the war was over, they didn't all get happy endings but got PTSD, depression, were guilt-ridden, ect.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
Make a choice, a hard one, like giving in to his daughter or Teagan and accept that Ferelden might not be saved from both threats.

That assumes that the Bannorn will think this is some big misunderstanding and go back into the fold.

And it's not clear who the bigger threat is until the end, that's the murkiness of politics.
There is no evidence that this is a blight and the bulk of the Horde is underground with the archdemon.
4 Legions of chevaliers on the otherhand are apparent and more can come. With those odds, both threats seem large. In fact, I would place the Orlesians as the larger threat from beginning to mid game (until we go to the deep roads and see the horde down there).

Sure, there was. Of course, no one else had the Hero of River Dane thing going for them but no one is born that way. Before the occupation Loghain was a mere farmer's son himself. Do you think no one else in Ferelden is at least promising?

No time to risk testing luck and having a Loghain version 2 appear out of nowhere.

Why? Celene obviously genuinely prepared for fighting a Blight, not invading Ferelden. You'd think there would be some kind of evidence, hints,

I won't open that can of worms.

Send scouts to Ostagar or Lothering, find proof that this is a Blight, so she might convince Daddy to stop acting like a lunatic.

The only evidence that this is a blight is the Archdemon, who is underground.
There is nothing in Ostagar that proves this is a Blight (we go there and guess what? It's empty!) and I dont' think there is anything in Lothering either.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 12:44 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Eh. I just see it as since it's a game they don't give you irrevelant details.

t's a game that doesn't bother to potray war as it really is, burt rather goes on the Tolkein theme, that wars are all about nice charges and inspirational speeches.

War is about ressource allocation and management, propagandan, troop maneuvres, deception, terrain advantages, weather conditions...etc.

But no, let's all just charge at Denerim without any sense of strategy.
The irony is that the darkspawn showed more strategy and cunning than us (all antagonists do and protagonists win because they are supposed to <_<).

Ah, yes. For GLORY! The whole sympathy cutscenes for Cailan in RTO made me go WTF? I mean, I know that this is an RPG & not part of the Total War series....but the battle scenes were so ludicrously mediocre......I don't know half as much about strategy & warfare as you do, KOP. But I feel your pain. And until a few months ago I always wanted to ask what Loghain asks the Warden: (Though Loghain puts it more nicely!) Because the moron got himself killed, his failure at Ostagar is excused and he gets weepy flashbacks in RTO? Really?

[Ryzaki]

@Sarah1281: Hunger Games Series right?

Yes very realistic though frankly I hated the last book. I'm an optimist and frankly seeing Katniss so broken inside made me "meh" and sell the books. That's just my preference for strong female characters though. She was so broken and empty at the end that urgh. I felt sick to my stomach (which I suppose is what the author made me want to feel). 

Though laughably I didn't cry once at Mockingjay while I was a blubbering mess in Hunger Games and Catching Fire.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2010 - 12:42 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Persephone wrote...
Ah, yes. For GLORY! The whole sympathy cutscenes for Cailan in RTO made me go WTF? I mean, I know that this is an RPG & not part of the Total War series....but the battle scenes were so ludicrously mediocre......I don't know half as much about strategy & warfare as you do, KOP. But I feel your pain. And until a few months ago I always wanted to ask what Loghain asks the Warden: (Though Loghain puts it more nicely!) Because the moron got himself killed, his failure at Ostagar is excused and he gets weepy flashbacks in RTO? Really?

I hear you. They tried so hard to make me feel sad about Cailan for some odd reason, that I ended up wanting to feed him to the wolves. Had they been more subtle, I might have had a different reaction.
I don't love Duncan, but he was the one deserving of flashbacks dammit!

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 12:49 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Not me. I do not trust people who murder family members. Period. Besides, I fail to see how she could have managed without a commander of at least half Loghain's experience & brilliance in the long run. As for Anora having to do so....I doubt any Fereldan noblewoman or even Empress Celene could have managed that crisis without either Loghain or the Warden as a military leader.

See I can't make distinctings like that. Killing someone is killing someone period. Just because you are related to them doesn't make it any worse/better. (Unless it's a mercy kill).

Loghain's experience and brilliance once again. Do not help defeat the blight. They help it spread to be frank.

She needed a military leader, and someone to inspire. The warden was both. She could've gotten the Warden on her side easily after Loghain was dealt with because Howe has no claim to the throne and no one in their right mind would let him near it. Without Loghain the Warden has no need to threaten her power and with Anora's full cooperation? Absolutely no reason to.

And she should have known of the Warden how? After Ostagar, the Warden him/herself is a rookie. Whom would I trust? My father or some Grey Warden (Who might also be an elf or dwarf)? My father who not only led my country into freedom but who served his country well for decades? An unknown person who only gains fame and prestige WAY INTO the game? 

Killing a family member is repugnant to me. Period. I love my closest family. There is a reason why children who kill their parents & vice versa are not regarded as role models, no matter the motive.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...


And she should have known of the Warden how? After Ostagar, the Warden him/herself is a rookie. Whom would I trust? My father or some Grey Warden (Who might also be an elf or dwarf)? My father who not only led my country into freedom but who served his country well for decades? An unknown person who only gains fame and prestige WAY INTO the game? 

Killing a family member is repugnant to me. Period. I love my closest family. There is a reason why children who kill their parents & vice versa are not regarded as role models, no matter the motive.

By Loghain's hiring of assassin's to kill them. Unless of course she is completely unaware of this and is more incompetent than I already thought. A simple sign or an open door invitation to Wardens would've sufficed (and no one for some baffling reason is crazy enough to pretend to be a Warden). The same way Loghain's cronies find you.

Bhelen killed his sibilings and is the best leader the Dwarves could have. Murdering someone close to you doesn't hamper leadership ability.

And actually no matter the motive?  If a girl killed her father who was hurting her (I say hurting but you know what I mean) yes I would laud her as a role model. If someoe killed their parent who was going to kill millions of other people yes I would consider them a hero. They would be. Killing a family member doesn't make you ahorrible person.

Killing someone who is no danger to anyone that's horrible. Not killing someone related to you.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2010 - 12:49 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...And actually no matter the motive?  If a girl killed her father who was hurting her (I say hurting but you know what I mean) yes I would laud her as a role model.

Reminds me of Kate, from Lost.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...And actually no matter the motive?  If a girl killed her father who was hurting her (I say hurting but you know what I mean) yes I would laud her as a role model.

Reminds me of Kate, from Lost.

I must be the only person alive who has never seen lost. Is Kate awesome? I hope she's awesome.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...And actually no matter the motive?  If a girl killed her father who was hurting her (I say hurting but you know what I mean) yes I would laud her as a role model.

Reminds me of Kate, from Lost.

I must be the only person alive who has never seen lost. Is Kate awesome? I hope she's awesome.

I found her annoying, because of an annoying love triangle with an annoying physician and a very cool badass whom I wonder why he is involved in this mess in the first place.

But it's been a while since I've seen it and I haven't seen the last season, so I don't know much.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 12:55 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Not me. I do not trust people who murder family members. Period. Besides, I fail to see how she could have managed without a commander of at least half Loghain's experience & brilliance in the long run. As for Anora having to do so....I doubt any Fereldan noblewoman or even Empress Celene could have managed that crisis without either Loghain or the Warden as a military leader.

See I can't make distinctings like that. Killing someone is killing someone period. Just because you are related to them doesn't make it any worse/better. (Unless it's a mercy kill).

Loghain's experience and brilliance once again. Do not help defeat the blight. They help it spread to be frank.

She needed a military leader, and someone to inspire. The warden was both. She could've gotten the Warden on her side easily after Loghain was dealt with because Howe has no claim to the throne and no one in their right mind would let him near it. Without Loghain the Warden has no need to threaten her power and with Anora's full cooperation? Absolutely no reason to.

And she should have known of the Warden how? After Ostagar, the Warden him/herself is a rookie. Whom would I trust? My father or some Grey Warden (Who might also be an elf or dwarf)? My father who not only led my country into freedom but who served his country well for decades? An unknown person who only gains fame and prestige WAY INTO the game? 

Killing a family member is repugnant to me. Period. I love my closest family. There is a reason why children who kill their parents & vice versa are not regarded as role models, no matter the motive.

By Loghain's hiring of assassin's to kill them. Unless of course she is completely unaware of this and is more incompetent than I already thought. A simple sign or an open door invitation to Wardens would've sufficed (and no one for some baffling reason is crazy enough to pretend to be a Warden). The same way Loghain's cronies find you.

Bhelen killed his sibilings and is the best leader the Dwarves could have. Murdering someone close to you doesn't hamper leadership ability.

And actually no matter the motive?  If a girl killed her father who was hurting her (I say hurting but you know what I mean) yes I would laud her as a role model. If someoe killed their parent who was going to kill millions of other people yes I would consider them a hero. They would be.

By the time Howe sends the assassins after the Warden, the Warden is a thorn in Loghain's side but doesn't yet have the experience and sway necessary to replace Loghain logically.

And the Warden would have trusted Loghain's daughter at that point because? (And she knows this)

As for Bhelen, I find him killing one sibling and framing the other to be both brilliant and repugnant. There is no excuse for it morally.

I have known people who were hurt by close relatives like that. My country would not reward them for murdering them instead of going to the police and adhering the law.

The whole "Killing solves everything, no matter the consequences" is a scheme I never quite could grasp. I prefer subtlety. Violence taints those who use it. And before you ask why I play DAO then: I play it for the story, not for the hack 'n slash factor.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

By the time Howe sends the assassins after the Warden, the Warden is a thorn in Loghain's side but doesn't yet have the experience and sway necessary to replace Loghain logically.

And the Warden would have trusted Loghain's daughter at that point because? (And she knows this)

As for Bhelen, I find him killing one sibling and framing the other to be both brilliant and repugnant. There is no excuse for it morally.

I have known people who were hurt by close relatives like that. My country would not reward them for murdering them instead of going to the police and adhering the law.

The whole "Killing solves everything, no matter the consequences" is a scheme I never quite could grasp. I prefer subtlety. Violence taints those who use it. And before you ask why I play DAO then: I play it for the story, not for the hack 'n slash factor.

Actually you get attacked at Lothering. The first place you stop. They already knew your face, description and who you were with. I see no reason Anora wouldn't have this information. And what show of faith for the Orlesian Wardens would be then allowing the remaining Fereldan wardens (they are nobodies) into her court. What reason does the Warden have not to trust Anora once Loghain is dead and the bounty is lifted? 

No. But many countries wouldn't condemn them either. Self defense is self defense. And actually I have little doubt that someone who killed their father but saved millions of lives in the process wouldn't be labled a hero.

...When did I say that? Violence has it's place just like everything else. Diplomacy wasn't going to help Anora. Violence might've. (Well some intrigue, murder, violence and then diplomacy).

Or do you want to talk the darkspawn away? 

I play DAO for the story too. (Combat system isn't fun enough to play for just that). P4 I play or combat and story.

I can't get my PS2 emulator to work anymore..

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:01 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Killing someone who is no danger to anyone that's horrible. Not killing someone related to you.

Killing is always horrible. Killing someone related to you......well, I find that to be utterly horrifying. I'll just say this: I love my family. They mean the world to me. Maybe I'm not enough of a patriot. I don't care. Nothing would EVER make me kill my father or my two siblings. Nothing. To hell with Austria (My country), I love my family more.

Another reason why I am glad that I am not a ruler.:happy:

Gotta go to bed now. Awesome discussion, guys.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...


Killing is always horrible. Killing someone related to you......well, I find that to be utterly horrifying. I'll just say this: I love my family. They mean the world to me. Maybe I'm not enough of a patriot. I don't care. Nothing would EVER make me kill my father or my two siblings. Nothing. To hell with Austria (My country), I love my family more.

Another reason why I am glad that I am not a ruler.:happy:

Gotta go to bed now. Awesome discussion, guys.

Eh. It's less to do with patroism and more to do with the needs of the many over the good. Killing someone isn't always about vegence or personal pleasure. Sometimes it's simply cutting out a cancer.

That said I've been called a cold b*tch before so maybe that's it.

Night.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:03 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

By the time Howe sends the assassins after the Warden, the Warden is a thorn in Loghain's side but doesn't yet have the experience and sway necessary to replace Loghain logically.

And the Warden would have trusted Loghain's daughter at that point because? (And she knows this)

As for Bhelen, I find him killing one sibling and framing the other to be both brilliant and repugnant. There is no excuse for it morally.

I have known people who were hurt by close relatives like that. My country would not reward them for murdering them instead of going to the police and adhering the law.

The whole "Killing solves everything, no matter the consequences" is a scheme I never quite could grasp. I prefer subtlety. Violence taints those who use it. And before you ask why I play DAO then: I play it for the story, not for the hack 'n slash factor.

Actually you get attacked at Lothering. The first place you stop. They already knew your face, description and who you were with. I see no reason Anora wouldn't have this information. And what show of faith for the Orlesian Wardens would be then allowing the remaining Fereldan wardens (they are nobodies) into her court. What reason does the Warden have not to trust Anora once Loghain is dead and the bounty is lifted? 

I repeat: By that point she has no reason to KILL her father. She even tells you before the Landsmeet..."He is my father. If there is a way for him to live, I would prefer it." She loves him. She knows that he can still be of use. And in my games, he is of MUCH use. And I grant her that wish. Gladly. To quote an Asari from ME2: There is already enough suffering in the galaxy. I do not need to add to it.

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...


Killing is always horrible. Killing someone related to you......well, I find that to be utterly horrifying. I'll just say this: I love my family. They mean the world to me. Maybe I'm not enough of a patriot. I don't care. Nothing would EVER make me kill my father or my two siblings. Nothing. To hell with Austria (My country), I love my family more.

Another reason why I am glad that I am not a ruler.:happy:

Gotta go to bed now. Awesome discussion, guys.

Eh. It's less to do with patroism and more to do with the needs of the many over the good. Killing someone isn't always about vegence or personal pleasure. Sometimes it's simply cutting out a cancer.

That said I've been called a cold b*tch before so maybe that's it.

Night.

Nah, you're not a cold b*itch, just very pragmatic and practical. You won't like this but you share some traits with Loghain in that regard. On that topic, the two of you are of one mind.

Don't hit me, I bruise easily! 

Nite!

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...


I repeat: By that point she has no reason to KILL her father. She even tells you before the Landsmeet..."He is my father. If there is a way for him to live, I would prefer it." She loves him. She knows that he can still be of use. And in my games, he is of MUCH use. And I grant her that wish. Gladly. To quote an Asari from ME2: There is already enough suffering in the galaxy. I do not need to add to it.

She has plenty of reason to kill him. He killed her husband, he threatened her throne, his civil war is tearing the country apart while the darkspawn are ravaging about. He has commited treason.

Persephone wrote...

Nah, you're not a cold b*itch, just
very pragmatic and practical. You won't like this but you share some
traits with Loghain in that regard. On that topic, the two of you are of
one mind.

Don't hit me, I bruise easily! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

Nite!

Gah. Never I say NEVER!

I wouldn't stoop to slavery. He and I are nothing alike.

Nah I won't hit you. I'll tickle you til you can't breathe instead .

[KnightofPhoenix]

My people have a saying: "Al mulk a'akim".

It means "Ruling disregards relationships". In other words, there are no sibling, son or parent, there are either threats or assets. They say that to show that ruling is not an easy thing, nor is it a pleasure. Abd al Rahman I, the falcon of Quraysh, had to kill two of his nephews and he was the one who founded the Umayyad emirate in Spain (one of my personal heroes).
Abd Al-Rahman III, the greatest Andalusian ruler, said that in 50 years of ruling, he experienced only 14 days of happiness.

So yea, I can understand what Rysaki is saying. I would disagree on the efficiency of such acts in this specific case, not its morality.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:13 .

[Ryzaki]

T_T

How could you get my name wrong KoP?

How could you?

*runs away crying*

Though that is a very interesting and true quote.

And really I would never want to lead. I hate when someone looks at me to lead a group. And people have some strange fascination with doing so. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:12 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sowi...with a Z.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sowi...with a Z.

XD

It's fine. Just call me Ryz. I shorten your name unnecessarily you might as well do the same.