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[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...


I repeat: By that point she has no reason to KILL her father. She even tells you before the Landsmeet..."He is my father. If there is a way for him to live, I would prefer it." She loves him. She knows that he can still be of use. And in my games, he is of MUCH use. And I grant her that wish. Gladly. To quote an Asari from ME2: There is already enough suffering in the galaxy. I do not need to add to it.

She has plenty of reason to kill him. He killed her husband, he threatened her throne, his civil war is tearing the country apart while the darkspawn are ravaging about. He has commited treason.

Persephone wrote...

Nah, you're not a cold b*itch, just
very pragmatic and practical. You won't like this but you share some
traits with Loghain in that regard. On that topic, the two of you are of
one mind.

Don't hit me, I bruise easily! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

Nite!

Gah. Never I say NEVER!

I wouldn't stoop to slavery. He and I are nothing alike.

Nah I won't hit you. I'll tickle you til you can't breathe instead .

1) He did not kill Cailan. Cailan truly brought that upon himself.

2) Ostagar was not treason. Tactical retreat was IMO the best option.

3) It is not his civil war (He tells you that he never wanted it) but the Bannorn's idea of good timing to rebel again. The country is without a king, after all. Best timing. And the Bannorn care little about the DS while they are killing each other.

Just because one pragmatic decision of his disgusts you as much as I am being disgusted by killing a family member doesn't mean you cannot share traits. The man is a mosaic of brilliance and flaws, triumphs and failure, shades and light.... Er...I'm gushing again. Ooops. A lot of great, ruthless leaders have stooped to slavery. Are all their triumphs and admirable qualities erased by that? No. I still admire Bhelen, even though his methods disgust me.

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

My people have a saying: "Al mulk a'akim".

It means "Ruling disregards relationships". In other words, there are no sibling, son or parent, there are either threats or assets. They say that to show that ruling is not an easy thing, nor is it a pleasure. Abd al Rahman I, the falcon of Quraysh, had to kill two of his nephews and he was the one who founded the Umayyad emirate in Spain (one of my personal heroes).
Abd Al-Rahman III, the greatest Andalusian ruler, said that in 50 years of ruling, he experienced only 14 days of happiness.

So yea, I can understand what Rysaki is saying. I would disagree on the efficiency of such acts in this specific case, not its morality.

Oh, I understand where you're both coming from. At least I'm trying. It's just something I could never do. 

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...


1) He did not kill Cailan. Cailan truly brought that upon himself.

So he didn't knowingly let Cailan go on to his death? He didn't smirk and say "glory for us all?" Really? 

Though yes Cailan did bring it on himself. But to suggest Loghain played absolutely no part in it when he was supposed to flank the Darkspawn and...didn't is pretty meh. Especially considering Cailan dies right after the signal fire was lit.

2) Ostagar was not treason. Tactical retreat was IMO the best option.

Yes it was. He was supposed to defend the area and his king. He left. That was treason.

3) It is not his civil war (He tells you that he never wanted it) but the Bannorn's idea of good timing to rebel again. The country is without a king, after all. Best timing. And the Bannorn care little about the DS while they are killing each other.

He brought it about by claiming regency.

Just because one pragmatic decision of his disgusts you as much as I am being disgusted by killing a family member doesn't mean you cannot share traits. The man is a mosaic of brilliance and flaws, triumphs and failure, shades and light.... Er...I'm gushing again. Ooops. A lot of great, ruthless leaders have stooped to slavery. Are all their triumphs and admirable qualities erased by that? No. I still admire Bhelen, even though his methods disgust me.

But we don't share traits. I'm not pragmatic. (I never keep the anvil for instance). I understand pragmatic decisions but I personally would be unwilling to do most of them.

I wouldn't kill someone ever but I understand the reasoning behind doing so. I wouldn't risk my life to save anyone either but I see the reasoning behind doing so.

No of course not but I don't find them to be great people merely great leaders. I won't gush on and on about them but I will acknowledge their achievements. In short they have my respect for their achievements and not their person. If that makes any sense. I respect Loghain for defending Fereldan against Orlais but I utterly despise him as a person. It's the same with those leaders. I like a few crazies though. But I have a thing for insane people.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:27 .

[Persephone]

1) He did not kill Cailan. Cailan truly brought that upon himself. [/quote]

So he didn't knowingly let Cailan go on to his death? He didn't smirk and say "glory for us all?" Really? 
--------------------------

Quotes got messed up. No. That scene may have been subtle as a sledgehammer. But Cailan insisted on fighting on the front lines. His choice, his risk. I don't mourn him in the slightest. Callous, I guess.


2) Ostagar was not treason. Tactical retreat was IMO the best option.[/quote]

Yes it was. He was supposed to defend the area and his king. He left. That was treason.
----------------------------

He kept his vow to Maric. Saving an idiot of a "king" who was selling out his country to Orlais and leading his army into an inane glory hunt.... Nah. Better to save the other half of the army in a tactical retreat. Kings have fallen in battle before during retreats and such. The mages retreated before Loghain did. Only choice to make. Esp. with Archie and MANY DS still lying in wait.

[quote]3) It is not his civil war (He tells you that he never wanted it) but the Bannorn's idea of good timing to rebel again. The country is without a king, after all. Best timing. And the Bannorn care little about the DS while they are killing each other. [/quote] He brought it about by claiming regency.
----------------------------

Anora appointed him/backed him. Who else could have done it except the man who has succeeded against impossible odds before?

--------------


No of course not ut I don't find them to be great people merely great leaders. I won't gush on and on about them but I will acknowledge their achievements. In short they have my respect for their achievements and not their person. If that makes any sense.

------------------------------

Sure it makes sense. Absolutely. (And I mean that, I'm not being sarcastic)

[Ryzaki]

He gave his word to his king that he would flank the darkspawn. He did not do so. How exactly is that not treason?

He probably gave his word to protect his king but left him to die how is that not treason?

Almost every where you hear discontent about Loghain and his policies. Also Anora was a grown woman and fully capable of being queen. Why would her general need to claim regency? That sends out plenty of red flags and her backup could easily be seen as her being coerced or threatened.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:33 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sowi...with a Z.

XD

It's fine. Just call me Ryz. I shorten your name unnecessarily you might as well do the same.

Ryz means rice in my language...

I am hungry

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

He gave his word to his king that he would flank the darkspawn. He did not do so. How exactly is that not treason?

He probably gave his word to protect his king but left him to die how is that not treason?

It isn't treason because suicide runs aren't preferable to a retreat that saves half the army rather than getting them slaughtered.

Protecting Cailan could only go so far. If I didn't know the lad to be a complete fool, I'd think Cailan was courting death more than any mistress he ever had, given his idiotic behavior.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sowi...with a Z.

XD

It's fine. Just call me Ryz. I shorten your name unnecessarily you might as well do the same.

Ryz means rice in my language...

I am hungry

Seriously?

LOL

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

He gave his word to his king that he would flank the darkspawn. He did not do so. How exactly is that not treason?

He probably gave his word to protect his king but left him to die how is that not treason?

It isn't treason because suicide runs aren't preferable to a retreat that saves half the army rather than getting them slaughtered.

Protecting Cailan could only go so far. If I didn't know the lad to be a complete fool, I'd think Cailan was courting death more than any mistress he ever had, given his idiotic behavior.

Treason is betrayal of an oath, country, yadda, yadda.

Doesn't matter if oath is stupid. Betraying it is still treason.

No one would care if his betrayal had helped without anyone else needing to intervene. It didn't. So he's a traitor. (Honestly nearly everyone in game aware of what he did at Ostagar calls him a traitor).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:34 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Almost every where you hear discontent about Loghain and his policies. Also Anora was a grown woman and fully capable of being queen. Why would her general need to claim regency? That sends out plenty of red flags and her backup could easily be seen as her being coerced or threatened.

Hmmmmmm..........I recall gossips & rumors and many others who saw Loghain being Regent as the only logical choice. There is no 100% consent on either side.

[Ryzaki]

Traitor isn't always negative connotations. It's just a description. Even if Loghain had saved everyone he still would've betrayed Cailan and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Almost every where you hear discontent about Loghain and his policies. Also Anora was a grown woman and fully capable of being queen. Why would her general need to claim regency? That sends out plenty of red flags and her backup could easily be seen as her being coerced or threatened.

Hmmmmmm..........I recall gossips & rumors and many others who saw Loghain being Regent as the only logical choice. There is no 100% consent on either side.

I fail to see how it's a logical choice when Anora was still ruling Queen. He didn't need to be Regent to lead her armies. And Anora relies on him far too much for him to actually believe she wouldn't listen to his stragetic *spelling I know* advice.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:37 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

He gave his word to his king that he would flank the darkspawn. He did not do so. How exactly is that not treason?

He probably gave his word to protect his king but left him to die how is that not treason?

It isn't treason because suicide runs aren't preferable to a retreat that saves half the army rather than getting them slaughtered.

Protecting Cailan could only go so far. If I didn't know the lad to be a complete fool, I'd think Cailan was courting death more than any mistress he ever had, given his idiotic behavior.

Treason is betrayal of an oath, country, yadda, yadda.

Doesn't matter if oath is stupid. Betraying it is still treason.

No one would care if his betrayal had helped without anyone else needing to intervene. It didn't. So he's a traitor. (Honestly nearly everyone in game aware of what he did at Ostagar calls him a traitor).

Actually no, nearly everyone does not call him a traitor. Even the nobles at the Landsmeet mock you if you pull out the Ostagar card. Why should I care what Wynne says? Or Alistair? You meet people who were at Ostagar who call you a traitor too. So again, division.

I care little for meaningless oaths. (They are meaningless to me, anyway. The only oaths we know of 100% are the one he made to Maric, which he keeps, and the one to the Warden at camp, which he keeps also.) In such a case, I prefer sensible options. And I even asked a friend of mine who has a PHD in history: Tactical retreat to avoid a complete massacre =/= Not treason. Even should the king die.

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Traitor isn't always negative connotations. It's just a description. Even if Loghain had saved everyone he still would've betrayed Cailan and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar.

He owes no allegiance to the Grey Wardens. None.

Cailan is a different matter. And had Cailan not been a glory hounding tool, I might have cared.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...


Actually no, nearly everyone does not call him a traitor. Even the nobles at the Landsmeet mock you if you pull out the Ostagar card. Why should I care what Wynne says? Or Alistair? You meet people who were at Ostagar who call you a traitor too. So again, division.

I care little for meaningless oaths. (They are meaningless to me, anyway. The only oaths we know of 100% are the one he made to Maric, which he keeps, and the one to the Warden at camp, which he keeps also.) In such a case, I prefer sensible options. And I even asked a friend of mine who has a PHD in history: Tactical retreat to avoid a complete massacre =/= Not treason. Even should the king die.

People who believe you left Cailan to die. That's not what happened. So no...no division.

The nobles who weren't there in the first place? And get their panties in a bunch about a noble being tortured? You have no proof Loghain betrayed Calian and he's been spreading his lies about the Wardens the whole time. Ostagar gets you nothing because there's no proof that the Wardens didn't do it and Loghain did. No proof the signal fire was lit, so on and so forth. 

....See this is where we disagree. Oaths aren't meaningless unless you don't mean what you say. And if an oath for you is meaningless I can't trust your word and to me that makes you someone I can't trust. (Not you as in you personally but as a general statement.)

It is treason. Sensible treason but treason nonethless. Treason that probably won't get you punished but it is still treason.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:45 .

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Traitor isn't always negative connotations. It's just a description. Even if Loghain had saved everyone he still would've betrayed Cailan and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar.

He owes no allegiance to the Grey Wardens. None.

Cailan is a different matter. And had Cailan not been a glory hounding tool, I might have cared.

And that doesn't stop him from betraying them. They trusted in his strageties and that he wouldn't lead them to dry.

And you not caring doesn't make it any less treason.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Ryz means rice in my language...

I am hungry

Seriously?

LOL

I think we actually gave "rice" its name. I know the Spanish word for rice, "aroz" is originally Arabic.
Lots of words have Arabic origin (like alcohol), so maybe

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:46 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...


Actually no, nearly everyone does not call him a traitor. Even the nobles at the Landsmeet mock you if you pull out the Ostagar card. Why should I care what Wynne says? Or Alistair? You meet people who were at Ostagar who call you a traitor too. So again, division.

I care little for meaningless oaths. (They are meaningless to me, anyway. The only oaths we know of 100% are the one he made to Maric, which he keeps, and the one to the Warden at camp, which he keeps also.) In such a case, I prefer sensible options. And I even asked a friend of mine who has a PHD in history: Tactical retreat to avoid a complete massacre =/= Not treason. Even should the king die.

People who believe you left Cailan to die. That's not what happened. So no...no division.

The nobles who weren't there in the first place? And get their panties in a bunch about a noble being tortured?

....See this is where we disagree. Oaths aren't meaningless unless you don't mean what you say. And if an oath for you is meaningless I can't trust your word and to me that makes you someone I can't trust. (Not you as in you personally but as a general statement.)

It is treason. Sensible treason but treason nonethless. Treason that probably won't get you punished but it is still treason.

Those people believed in a conspiracy by the Wardens. Not a long stretch of the imagination, given that the Wardens had already committed treason twice.

Alistair was not IN the battle either. Wynne retreated with the mages before Loghain did.

Oaths can become meaningless when it comes to choosing the lesser evil.

And I stand by what has been backed by a historian I trust: Tactical retreat =/= treason

Modifié par Persephone, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:51 .

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


I think we actually gave "rice" its name. I know the Spanish word for rice, "aroz" is originally Arabic.
Lots of words have Arabic origin (like alcohol), so maybe

I always found it interesting how much the english language ripped off everyone else.

I think  magazines has an arabic origin? (Not sure which I learned that in a persona game oddly enough O_o)

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Traitor isn't always negative connotations. It's just a description. Even if Loghain had saved everyone he still would've betrayed Cailan and the Grey Wardens at Ostagar.

He owes no allegiance to the Grey Wardens. None.

Cailan is a different matter. And had Cailan not been a glory hounding tool, I might have cared.

And that doesn't stop him from betraying them. They trusted in his strageties and that he wouldn't lead them to dry.

And you not caring doesn't make it any less treason.

Given his history with them in "The Calling", I don't blame him for not caring about the Wardens at all.

See my post above re: treason

And now for real, I am falling asleep on my keyboard: Nite. Thanks for putting up with my constant arguing.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

Those people believed in a conspiracy by the Wardens. Not a long stretch of the imagination, given that the Wardens had already committed treason twice.

Alistair was not IN the battle either. Wynne retreated with the mages before Loghain did.

Oaths can become meaningless when it comes to choosing the lesser evil.

And I stand by what has been backed by a historian I trust: Tactical retreat =/= Not treason

Nope but we saw enough of the aftereffects to know what happened. (And I doubt Flemeth or Morrigan had reason to lie about such a thing).

And I don't believe that.

Tactical retreat isn't treason. Tactical retreat and leaving half your army to get slaughtered along with your king on the other hand..

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
I always found it interesting how much the english language ripped off everyone else.

I think  magazines has an arabic origin? (Not sure which I learned that in a persona game oddly enough O_o)

Yep, it comes from "Makhzan", which means storage.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...
Given his history with them in "The Calling", I don't blame him for not caring about the Wardens at all.

See my post above re: treason

And now for real, I am falling asleep on my keyboard: Nite. Thanks for putting up with my constant arguing.

You shouldn't take grudges with certain members of a group against the whole group. I always found that way of thinking to be extremely petty and childish.

And yeah we don't agree on treason.

Back at ya. I love bikering. <3

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I always found it interesting how much the english language ripped off everyone else.

I think  magazines has an arabic origin? (Not sure which I learned that in a persona game oddly enough O_o)

Yep, it comes from "Makhzan", which means storage.

LOL

Not only did we steal the word. We changed the meaning.

Though it does work when talking about gun magazines.

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Those people believed in a conspiracy by the Wardens. Not a long stretch of the imagination, given that the Wardens had already committed treason twice.

Alistair was not IN the battle either. Wynne retreated with the mages before Loghain did.

Oaths can become meaningless when it comes to choosing the lesser evil.

And I stand by what has been backed by a historian I trust: Tactical retreat =/= Not treason

Nope but we saw enough of the aftereffects to know what happened. (And I doubt Flemeth or Morrigan had reason to lie about such a thing).

And I don't believe that.

Tactical retreat isn't treason. Tactical retreat and leaving half your army to get slaughtered along with your king on the other hand..

They are both masterful liars & manipulators. From a RPG viewpoint, I don't believe anything they say at that point.

While saving the other half. He couldn't have saved Cailan or Duncan anyway due to the delayed signal. A few seconds after he turns away, they both die. Had he charged on horses, he would not have reached them in time. The Warden looting everything did it!!! (Just kidding, but you know what I mean)

Modifié par Persephone, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:54 .