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[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Edit: Also...as queen should she not be aware of some military strageties? I find that...odd to be the least especially considering her father is a general and the war with the darkspawn was immeninent.

How was it imminent?
Did anyone before know that the darkspawn were coming?

Why should they have bothered to train Anora in the military, if Loghain already filled that role?
She wasn't trained to do it, she was raised during peace time . Blame Maric.
The more pertinent question is. Why is Cailan an imbecile who has no understanding of war?

???

Cailan's expected to know war during peace with Loghain but Anora isn't? 

Seriously? They both should've known such things. It was foolish not to. Anoa claims to rule the country so she defintely should've known such things. Cailan at the very least is known not to care about such things such his lack of knowledge is expected, not acceptable but it makes sense.

How is war not immement? They gathered an army! They had backup waiting! What you think the Orlesian wardens being called was for tea and cupcakes? 

And Loghain isn't going to live forever. She can't rely on daddy all the time. She's supposed to be a ruler. Rulers don't go running to daddy every time someone attacks the country.

(husband)

Technically speaking according to official job description (Queen consort) Anora was suppose to be just a breeder and an arm charm.   Well she didn't do the breeder thing so good, but she did act as CEO of the country so I think Ferelden came out ahead on that one.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 décembre 2010 - 07:45 .

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

It would have been Cailan's job, however. Anora was supposed to be his baby-machine & administrator because the idiot wasn't only bored by planning strategies and whined about there being no Archie sightings but also put ALL the responsibility on his wife's and Loghain's shoulders, yet he pulls rank when he doesn't get his idiotic way. Why Loghain put up with such a brat for so long I'll never understand.

True. Honestly Cailan should've been leading and studying military tatics (Particularly under Loghain) and seriously he is annoying.

Still I don't think he should've died for it.

People need to stop having one legitimate kid for cases like this.

"...He's retarded chose the other kid." 

"But your majesty the other kid pulls the wings of butterflies!"

"Yeah but he has a brain!" 

(husband)

well blame that on his dady Maric not properly educating him and generally neglecting him.   One of the reasons why I think Ferelden is better off ending the superstitious reliance on the Theirins.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Eh. I just see it as since it's a game they don't give you irrevelant details.

It's a game that doesn't bother to potray war as it really is, burt rather goes on the Tolkein theme, that wars are all about nice charges and inspirational speeches.

War is about ressource allocation and management, propagandan, troop maneuvres, deception, terrain advantages, weather conditions...etc.

But no, let's all just charge at Denerim without any sense of strategy.
The irony is that the darkspawn showed more strategy and cunning than us (all antagonists do and protagonists win because they are supposed to <_<).

Equally sad is that I've seen a children's book series show a far less idealistic and more strategical depiction of war.

And once the war was over, they didn't all get happy endings but got PTSD, depression, were guilt-ridden, ect.

(husband)

Well in all fairness what KOP speaks of is also very Shakespearan.  And we all know how our culture venerates Shakespeare as being synonmous with the Gospel. 

(And yes I know a few on the board aren't western in culture... a rhetorical remark.).

[KnightofPhoenix]

? How is what I said Shakespearan? Considering how I didn't bother reading any of his works (saw the movie Macbeth only, and parts of some plays), I find that odd. Did he ever talk about military strategies?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 08:08 .

[nos_astra]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
That assumes that the Bannorn will think this is some big misunderstanding and go back into the fold.

Their lives are on the line. I don't think it's impossible to unite them - it's just impossible for Loghain, who obviously is the wrong man for the job.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And it's not clear who the bigger threat is until the end, that's the murkiness of politics.

That's nonsense. For anyone who bothers to look it's quite obvious that the darkspawn are the bigger threat. They leave nothing but blighted earth, death and destruction. That's not a secret, they are there, you can watch them ruining the country.

Whatever Orlais can do, it's not worse than that. Remember, people now can witness first hand what the darkspawn do - destroy, taint, steal women. There must be witnesses.

There is no evidence that this is a blight and the bulk of the Horde is underground with the archdemon.

Other than an organized darkspawn horde big enough to make Loghain retreat because a battle against them very defensible position was unwinnable. Not much evidence, it's just unprecedented. Never in history have the darkspawn come to the surface en masse outside of a Blight. They were believed extinct after all.
And history says that Blights can last years or decades before the Archdemon is showing itself.

No evidence? Only for those too blind or stupid to draw conclusions.

4 Legions of chevaliers on the otherhand are apparent and more can come. With those odds, both threats seem large. In fact, I would place the Orlesians as the larger threat from beginning to mid game (until we go to the deep roads and see the horde down there).

From beginning to midgame, possibly. Midgame is not a very precise point in the story, though. How far into the story do you think one could get the general idea that Orlais is not going to invade? 4 months? How long can it take to see that the darkspawn coming to the surface won't go back down and their numbers are increasing?

No time to risk testing luck and having a Loghain version 2 appear out of nowhere.

How about someone in the shadow of Big Daddy Mac Tir who is simply a good tactician and strategist in his own right? Do you really think in all of Ferelden no one could possibly replace him?

The only evidence that this is a blight is the Archdemon, who is underground.
There is nothing in Ostagar that proves this is a Blight (we go there and guess what? It's empty!) and I dont' think there is anything in Lothering either.

As I said before, Blights are supposed to last years, decades, even centuries. The Archdemon doesn't show itself too soon, in fact the reason the Archdemon did after only one year was that there was little resistance in Ferelden.

Game mechanics are nothing to judge from. The map shows a huge blackened area that is supposed to show you to where the darkspawn have spread.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 décembre 2010 - 08:42 .

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

? How is what I said Shakespearan? Considering how I didn't bother reading any of his works (saw the movie Macbeth only, and parts of some plays), I find that odd. Did he ever talk about military strategies?

(husband)

Well the Shakespeare plays I've seen that deal with war, Henry the V, being the best example, are light on depicting war.  War is part of the setting, ambiance, but it forms a great back drop to giving great heroic speeches.

example

www.youtube.com/watch

[Ryzaki]

(husband)

Technically speaking according to official job description (Queen consort) Anora was suppose to be just a breeder and an arm charm. Well she didn't do the breeder thing so good, but she did act as CEO of the country so I think Ferelden came out ahead on that one.

She didn't do the breeder thing at all and it was the one thing she was actually supposed to do.

Though yes Fereldan did come ahead. Just long enough to get pulled into the inevitable succession war due to her not having an heir.

(husband)

well blame that on his dady Maric not properly
educating him and generally neglecting him.   One of the reasons why I
think Ferelden is better off ending the superstitious reliance on the
Theirins.

I blame that on both of them. At the point in the game the're fully grown adults fully capable of making their own choices. Instead they act like children.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 décembre 2010 - 08:46 .

[Esbatty]

So about that Eamon hate... I thought we were here to hate on Eamon? I hate his stupid beard. Its all grey and streaky. I bet he gets bits of meat stuck in it and its all greasy, like a department store Santa on a weeklong bender after Christmas Eve.

[Avilia]

Addai67 wrote...

[snipped]

(husband)

Well the Shakespeare plays I've seen that deal with war, Henry the V, being the best example, are light on depicting war.  War is part of the setting, ambiance, but it forms a great back drop to giving great heroic speeches.

example

www.youtube.com/watch

All due respect to Bioware, that makes "For Ferelden" look a little, er, limp.

Perhaps if Cailan had told his men that "Ferelden men still abed will think themselves acursed they were not here", the battle may have gone differently ;-) (reference www.youtube.com/watch)

Er, on topic - Eamon is a slimy scheming pooh head.  I made a very nice mod of him with no beard and different hair.  Oddly, he now looks remarkably like Brother Genetivi.  I sense a scandal

Modifié par Avilia, 07 décembre 2010 - 09:10 .

[Esbatty]

Avilia wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

[snipped]

(husband)

Well the Shakespeare plays I've seen that deal with war, Henry the V, being the best example, are light on depicting war.  War is part of the setting, ambiance, but it forms a great back drop to giving great heroic speeches.

example

www.youtube.com/watch

All due respect to Bioware, that makes "For Ferelden" look a little, er, limp.

Perhaps if Cailan had told his men that "Ferelden men still abed will think themselves acursed they were not here", the battle may have gone differently ;-) (reference www.youtube.com/watch)

Er, on topic - Eamon is a slimy scheming pooh head.  I made a very nice mod of him with no beard and different hair.  Oddly, he now looks remarkably like Brother Genetivi.  I sense a scandal

Genetivi is a CRAZY DUDE! I hazard to guess that 10% of the damn Codex entries are written by or somehow based on his writings. He writes on all sorts of topics, so I that crazy bastard.

But Eamon, Eamon is a sonuva**** too wrapped up in his political gambles to remember his sneaky wife is being sneaky. Sneaky hawt Orlesian Woman.

[Persephone]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

For the arguments that Loghain didn't know or understand what the roles of Grey Wardens are within society is very lame.  Cailan could have requested wardens from Trevinter, The Anderfels, Free Marches, and Antiva as well.  Orlai was just closer.  Most every living soul in Thedas knows and understands what the purpose of a Grey Warden is.  So for Loghain to claim they were going to allow Orlai to overtake Ferelden is a bunch of bull.

Also, the game also mentions that King Cailan had won battles on previous nights before Loghain turned and ran.  So what made Loghain change his mind on that one night?   Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar from my point of view not after.  It was all in the works before Ostagar.  I think it was Anora all along and she used her father,  that Eamon was putting pressure on Cailan to set her aside and she knew it.   

I think Eamon to some degree can be out for his own interest.  When playing the HNF why does Eamon stay on as Chancellor if you choose the option to rule beside Alistair or Anora and you choose a different boon?  That doesn't make sense for Eamon to stay with you ruling beside the King or Queen.

What most "know" are legends and tales of glory and griffons but little about the actual order or its purpose. Not even the Warden knows why he/she is actually necessary till Riordan spills the beans.

Cailan winning battles...I'd rather say it was Loghain winning battles. David Gaider explained why he decided to retreat.

Even if it WAS Anora....I do not blame her. Cailan never deserved her to begin with.

[Persephone]

Esbatty wrote...

So about that Eamon hate... I thought we were here to hate on Eamon? I hate his stupid beard. Its all grey and streaky. I bet he gets bits of meat stuck in it and its all greasy, like a department store Santa on a weeklong bender after Christmas Eve.

True that. The thread has derailed a lot.

Yeah, that BEARD! Ugh.

But I really did not like his reaction to the happy news that my Warden convinced Anora & Alistair to marry. The facade fell for a moment there...:innocent:

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Persephone wrote...

Esbatty wrote...

So about that Eamon hate... I thought we were here to hate on Eamon? I hate his stupid beard. Its all grey and streaky. I bet he gets bits of meat stuck in it and its all greasy, like a department store Santa on a weeklong bender after Christmas Eve.

True that. The thread has derailed a lot.

Yeah, that BEARD! Ugh.

But I really did not like his reaction to the happy news that my Warden convinced Anora & Alistair to marry. The facade fell for a moment there...:innocent:

Yeah, I know. It just shows what his intentions are. If he was really that concerned about Ferelden and it's stability, then he would have jumped for joy at such a solution. Uniting the Mac Tir and Therin bloodlines unites both warring factions and produces a comprimise that everyone can be happy with.

Yet he don't like it, do he? No, because he was probably already planning on pulling solo Alistair's strings, and setting up a marriage that would be politically advantageous to him and his sorry family.

Grrrr. Stupid Eamon, lame beard. ****** on Bioware for forcing me to hunt the stoopid ashes to cure his furry, sorry ass.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Hanz54321 wrote...


I got nothing but positive responses to the idea of Alistair and Anora marrying from the man.  I recommended it first, he said it was the best option.  I got Anoya and Al to agree to it and I chose the option, "You don't seem pleased," and he explained that he was simply suprised as he thought the two would sprout wings before marrying, but that this was the best option.  Then at Castle Redcliffe before the Siege of Denerim he commented again that this was the best course of action.

That's 3 times he told me Al and Anoya together was THE BEST thing for Fereldan.  THREE times.

I read a lot of posts stating that Eamon was against Anora having any part of the throne . . . but in my experience it depends on the conversation options you pick.

He told me that Marrying Alistair and Anora would not have been his first choice, but supposes it could prove to be a workable arrangement. This was at Redcliffe Castle. At his estate in denerim, he tried throwing reasons at me not to join them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

klarabella wrote...
No evidence? Only for those too blind or stupid to draw conclusions.

That's no evidence still. It's been 400 years, everyone believed that the blights are over.
And Loghain had to retreat from Ostagar because he believed he didn't have enough men for that specific battle, hence  his attempted alliance with the mages and the dwarves. That does not mean that the darkspawn were large enough to automaitcally mean it's a blight. Like I said, the horde was still primarily underground.

From beginning to midgame, possibly. Midgame is not a very precise point in the story, though. How far into the story do you think one could get the general idea that Orlais is not going to invade? 4 months? How long can it take to see that the darkspawn coming to the surface won't go back down and their numbers are increasing?

Never, Orlais could have invaded at any moment. There was no guarantee at any point in time that they wouldn't.
However, by mid-late game, the darkspawn were by then clearly the main threat. Which is something that Loghain does not dismiss entirely, he sees that it's a Blight and he wants to unite the country to fight it, but without Orlesian puppets as he sees them.

How about someone in the shadow of Big Daddy Mac Tir who is simply a good tactician and strategist in his own right? Do you really think in all of Ferelden no one could possibly replace him?

Yes. Except for the Warden.

As I said before, Blights are supposed to last years, decades, even centuries. The Archdemon doesn't show itself too soon, in fact the reason the Archdemon did after only one year was that there was little resistance in Ferelden.

Which is percisely why there was no evidence of a blight until the Archdemon appears.

Game mechanics are nothing to judge from. The map shows a huge blackened area that is supposed to show you to where the darkspawn have spread.

By the end game, they spread everywhere. Before that, they are pretty much stil contained in the South and in the Bannorn who would rather fight Loghain.

EDIT: my head is seriously hurting (not because of this).
I am going to drop this if you don't mind Klarabella
Cheers.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 04:04 .

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

LupusYondergirl wrote...

Why do you assume only one family can be second in rank to the king?
It isn't that no one else understands rank, it's that you assume one person of identical title and rank to another is somehow still superior.
ALL Teyrns are second in rank to the king.
Yes, the Cousland family is right behind the royal family in terms of rank and power. So are the MacTirs
.

The codex entry for Highever says it's second ranked.  If Highever is second ranked than Gwaren can't be second or equal to Highever according to the codex entry for Highever.  Thus Gwaren becomes third.  If the codex entry for Highever said just a Teynir then yes you could include Gwaren also being second; but it doesn't.  It makes Highever second in command next to the King.  Which would give the bannorn the option of making Bryce Cousland King instead of Anora or Loghain as her regent.  Since Bryce Cousland is dead then it's up to the warden on who rules regardless of your origin.  If you play as a Cousland, you have just as much right to the throne as Alistair, or Anora.  Why doesn't Eamon point this out if you play a Cousland Warden?  Regardless if you play as a male/female Cousland. 

In absence of a Theirin heir, it's going to be a free for all.  Yes, the Couslands will have a strong bid based on history and political clout, but so will the Guerrins and others including now any surviving Mac Tirs.  It's why Eamon says that a Theirin heir is so important.  The reason that Bryce was put forward (by a few people) for king was that he was a war hero and beloved, in addition to the Couslands' prestige.

Second in importance has little meaning in the Fereldan system which is not autocratic like Orlais.  The Bannorn all think they are second, for instance.

Although Eamon is guilty of treason against Anora, so what would happen to the Guerrin claim if the Warden didn't support it is open to debate.