969 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wereparrot wrote...


Although Eamon is guilty of treason against Anora, so what would happen to the Guerrin claim if the Warden didn't support it is open to debate.

Well, Eamon says he doesn't want to move ahead without the Warden's approval, though I think this is more game mechanic than anything. He mostly bullies Alistair into it, saying that if he doesn't want to become king, he has to support Loghain.

Now, game mechanics aside, I think Eamon would go ahead with the plan if say, there was no Warden. He'd simply push Alistair into it, get his noble friends and Loghain enemies behind the plan, and carry forth.

[Sarah1281]

Since we have this codex entry for Highever then what is the purpose of rank and Highever being stated as second?  As for Succession, then it does come down to the Teynirs.  All of you can ignore rank if you want, but the codex entry for Highever is there for a reason.  Do you dispute that the warden becomes the highest military officer in Ferelden once you defeat Loghain?  If you say no you don't dispute this then rank does have meaning in which case you can't ignore the codex entry for Highever to make your argument.

For the love of God, the ****ing point is so that it is made clear early in the game that a Teyrn is second in rank to the king. Not just the Couslands, ANY Teyrn. There are only two. Cousland and Mac Tir. Highever and Gwaren. It says that BECAUSE Highever is one of TWO teynirs that makes them of a rank directrly below the King...JUST LIKE THE OTHER TEYNIR.

[Sarah1281]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

[Yeah, I know. It just shows what his intentions are. If he was really that concerned about Ferelden and it's stability, then he would have jumped for joy at such a solution. Uniting the Mac Tir and Therin bloodlines unites both warring factions and produces a comprimise that everyone can be happy with.

Yet he don't like it, do he? No, because he was probably already planning on pulling solo Alistair's strings, and setting up a marriage that would be politically advantageous to him and his sorry family.

Grrrr. Stupid Eamon, lame beard. ****** on Bioware for forcing me to hunt the stoopid ashes to cure his furry, sorry ass.

I got nothing but positive responses to the idea of Alistair and Anora marrying from the man.  I recommended it first, he said it was the best option.  I got Anoya and Al to agree to it and I chose the option, "You don't seem pleased," and he explained that he was simply suprised as he thought the two would sprout wings before marrying, but that this was the best option.  Then at Castle Redcliffe before the Siege of Denerim he commented again that this was the best course of action.

That's 3 times he told me Al and Anoya together was THE BEST thing for Fereldan.  THREE times.

I read a lot of posts stating that Eamon was against Anora having any part of the throne . . . but in my experience it depends on the conversation options you pick.

And yet somehow when you arrange for them to marry beforehand and kill Loghain, Eamon tries to break the deal by announcing to everyont that Alistair and Alistair alone will take Maric's throne and Anora even lampshades this.

Although Eamon is guilty of treason against Anora, so what would happen to the Guerrin claim if the Warden didn't support it is open to debate.

Eamon does not need you. He needs Alistair. And he's still not guilty of treason against someone who is not actually the reigning queen.

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

[Yeah, I know. It just shows what his intentions are. If he was really that concerned about Ferelden and it's stability, then he would have jumped for joy at such a solution. Uniting the Mac Tir and Therin bloodlines unites both warring factions and produces a comprimise that everyone can be happy with.

Yet he don't like it, do he? No, because he was probably already planning on pulling solo Alistair's strings, and setting up a marriage that would be politically advantageous to him and his sorry family.

Grrrr. Stupid Eamon, lame beard. ****** on Bioware for forcing me to hunt the stoopid ashes to cure his furry, sorry ass.

I got nothing but positive responses to the idea of Alistair and Anora marrying from the man.  I recommended it first, he said it was the best option.  I got Anoya and Al to agree to it and I chose the option, "You don't seem pleased," and he explained that he was simply suprised as he thought the two would sprout wings before marrying, but that this was the best option.  Then at Castle Redcliffe before the Siege of Denerim he commented again that this was the best course of action.

That's 3 times he told me Al and Anoya together was THE BEST thing for Fereldan.  THREE times.

I read a lot of posts stating that Eamon was against Anora having any part of the throne . . . but in my experience it depends on the conversation options you pick.

And yet somehow when you arrange for them to marry beforehand and kill Loghain, Eamon tries to break the deal by announcing to everyont that Alistair and Alistair alone will take Maric's throne and Anora even lampshades this.

Although Eamon is guilty of treason against Anora, so what would happen to the Guerrin claim if the Warden didn't support it is open to debate.

Eamon does not need you. He needs Alistair. And he's still not guilty of treason against someone who is not actually the reigning queen.

Someone posted a while back a quote from Gaider saying that Anora was the ruling Queen. I rest my case. And as for Loghain's 'regency'? I put it down to his greed; he reminds me of Sir Roger Mortimer.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 07 décembre 2010 - 06:47 .

[Sarah1281]

Someone posted a while back a quote from Gaider saying that Anora was the ruling Queen. I rest my case. And as for Loghain's 'regency'? I put it down to his greed; he reminds me of Sir Roger Mortimer.

It is your OPINION that it is treason, it is not a FACT that it is treason. Even if Anora WERE the ruling queen, the Landsmeet clearly provides a legal way for you to remove a monarch from power and going through the legal process to do that isn't treason.

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Someone posted a while back a quote from Gaider saying that Anora was the ruling Queen. I rest my case. And as for Loghain's 'regency'? I put it down to his greed; he reminds me of Sir Roger Mortimer.

It is your OPINION that it is treason, it is not a FACT that it is treason. Even if Anora WERE the ruling queen, the Landsmeet clearly provides a legal way for you to remove a monarch from power and going through the legal process to do that isn't treason.

Actually, it is. Rebellions always need to be successful, due to their treacherous nature. The Landsmeet doesn't provide anything of the sort, as it doesn't really even recognise who you choose, so I think your point is void. Even if the Landsmeet did, it doesn't change it from being treason. You seem quick to judge Bryce and Cailin on evidence that is sketchy at best; yet Eamon's treason is transparent.

[ejoslin]

I thought according to Ferelden law, the Bannorn was allowed to choose a monarch. It's not an absolute monarchy.

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...
Although Eamon is guilty of treason against Anora, so what would happen to the Guerrin claim if the Warden didn't support it is open to debate.

There is no legal basis in Fereldan law for your opinion.  So unless you have the overwhelming military force to back it up, it's just wind.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Yeah, I know. It just shows what his intentions are. If he was really that concerned about Ferelden and it's stability, then he would have jumped for joy at such a solution. Uniting the Mac Tir and Therin bloodlines unites both warring factions and produces a comprimise that everyone can be happy with.

Yet he don't like it, do he? No, because he was probably already planning on pulling solo Alistair's strings, and setting up a marriage that would be politically advantageous to him and his sorry family.

Grrrr. Stupid Eamon, lame beard. ****** on Bioware for forcing me to hunt the stoopid ashes to cure his furry, sorry ass.

Well as of RtO we know that he's worried that Anora is barren.  And there's good basis for him to worry about that both from lack of a little blonde brat running around the castle, to her epilogue.  She's not that into the heir making part of her duties.  So sure, he's not going to be excited about being back to square one.  A Theirin ass on the throne is the main thing, from his perspective.

As others have pointed out, he does concede that an Alistair-Anora match will make the strongest case to the LM and gives the best chance for peace in the short term.

[Wereparrot]

If all this is so, it calls into question the whole concept of treason. We must also revise our judgement of Loghain. Why is he a traitor for killing the king (as good as), and Eamon not a traitor for plotting against Anora, whom we have established twice in this thread is the ruling queen? It seems a bit hypocritical.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 07 décembre 2010 - 09:15 .

[nos_astra]

Loghain is grabbing power by trying to force the Landsmeet (namely the Bannorn, where they say the power lies) into submission. He trying to overthrow the Landsmeet.

Eamon calls a Landsmeet, to have them decide on who is going to rule Ferelden.

Modifié par klarabella, 07 décembre 2010 - 09:30 .

[Wereparrot]

klarabella wrote...

Eamon calls a Landsmeet.

To try to legalise his own treason. Inciting nobles is sedition, on top of plotting against the queen (high treason), and imagining to deprive the queen of her crown (treason felony). 

[Sarah1281]

Wereparrot wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Someone posted a while back a quote from Gaider saying that Anora was the ruling Queen. I rest my case. And as for Loghain's 'regency'? I put it down to his greed; he reminds me of Sir Roger Mortimer.

It is your OPINION that it is treason, it is not a FACT that it is treason. Even if Anora WERE the ruling queen, the Landsmeet clearly provides a legal way for you to remove a monarch from power and going through the legal process to do that isn't treason.

Actually, it is. Rebellions always need to be successful, due to their treacherous nature. The Landsmeet doesn't provide anything of the sort, as it doesn't really even recognise who you choose, so I think your point is void. Even if the Landsmeet did, it doesn't change it from being treason. You seem quick to judge Bryce and Cailin on evidence that is sketchy at best; yet Eamon's treason is transparent.

Since when am I judging Bryce for anything? I don't think Cailan planning to leave Anora for Celene is at all 'sketchy at best' although I admit that it is technically possible that Celene could really just love Cailan and have no plans on destroying Ferelden independence and that in the future the two will be able to be ruled by the same family without Ferelden independence being at all threatened. I find it unlikely, but it could happen.

Eamon's "treason" is NOT transparent. You could say that the civil war is 'treasonous' but Eamon was barely involved with that as he'd been poisoned. I don't see how you can imagine that the Landsmeet having the legal power to remove Loghain as regent (otherwise why bother putting the matter before them if they can't decide it or letting them vote and then having them accept the results of the duel?) makes removing Loghain and sometimes his daughter treason. It's a legal right they have.

Congress has the power to impreach the president. If they do that and remove him from power, that's hardly treason. It's a different situation, I know, but the point is that employing a legal method of removing someone from power is kind of NOT treason. At all.

[Sarah1281]

Wereparrot wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Eamon calls a Landsmeet.

To try to legalise his own treason. Inciting nobles is sedition, on top of plotting against the queen (high treason), and imagining to deprive the queen of her crown (treason felony). 

Except...no one, not even Loghain or the people on his side, try to claim that the Landsmeet doesn't have the power to remove him from power. It's perfectly legal. People wanted a Landsmeet since before Eamon woke up as they knew that was their own legal way to get Loghain out of power, Eamon was just the only one with enough political power (and a rival candidate for the throne so Loghain would actually show up) to do so.

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Eamon calls a Landsmeet.

To try to legalise his own treason. Inciting nobles is sedition, on top of plotting against the queen (high treason), and imagining to deprive the queen of her crown (treason felony). 

*headdesk*

Just because you keep calling it treason, doesn't make it so.  Anora's status was in question as of Cailan's death and Loghain's proclamation of a regency that was not considered legitimate by some of the Bannorn and by Redcliffe.  The Fereldan system is not an absolutist monarchy.  They can't just do whatever they want.  They answer to the banns.  Eamon is perfectly within his rights to bring a competing bid, especially since his contender is a Theirin albeit an unrecognized bastard.  Just as it was not treason for those who wanted to put Bryce Cousland on the throne to make a bid for that, even though Maric had an heir.  The Landsmeet had to rule then, and in Anora's case they have to rule, too.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 décembre 2010 - 09:46 .

[nos_astra]

Wereparrot wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Eamon calls a Landsmeet.

To try to legalise his own treason. Inciting nobles is sedition, on top of plotting against the queen (high treason), and imagining to deprive the queen of her crown (treason felony). 

By what standards? Ferelden is not an absolutist monarchy.

It's perfectly legal to call a Landsmeet and ask the nobles to choose a new monarch as the old one failed (or as I put it, to end an interregnum and choose a monarch).

[Wereparrot]

klarabella wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

klarabella wrote...
Eamon calls a Landsmeet.

To try to legalise his own treason. Inciting nobles is sedition, on top of plotting against the queen (high treason), and imagining to deprive the queen of her crown (treason felony). 

By what standards? Ferelden is not an absolutist monarchy.

It's perfectly legal to call a Landsmeet and ask the nobles to choose a new monarch as the old one failed (or as I put it, to end an interregnum and choose a monarch).

That doesn't make it any less treason. If you are correct then all Loghain is guilty of is dessertion and voluntary manslaughter. And while you're harping on; England is not an absolute monarchy today, yet we still have those same laws that you have attributed to one.

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Eamon calls a Landsmeet.

To try to legalise his own treason. Inciting nobles is sedition, on top of plotting against the queen (high treason), and imagining to deprive the queen of her crown (treason felony). 

*headdesk*

Just because you keep calling it treason, doesn't make it so.  Anora's status was in question as of Cailan's death and Loghain's proclamation of a regency that was not considered legitimate by some of the Bannorn and by Redcliffe.  The Fereldan system is not an absolutist monarchy.  They can't just do whatever they want.  They answer to the banns.  Eamon is perfectly within his rights to bring a competing bid, especially since his contender is a Theirin albeit an unrecognized bastard.  Just as it was not treason for those who wanted to put Bryce Cousland on the throne to make a bid for that, even though Maric had an heir.  The Landsmeet had to rule then, and in Anora's case they have to rule, too.

So we keep going round in circles. To accuse Loghain and not Eamon, even to acknowledge Loghain's and not Eamon's, is rank hypocrisy.

[Wulfram]

Wereparrot wrote...

That doesn't make it any less treason. If you are correct then all Loghain is guilty of is dessertion and voluntary manslaughter. And while you're harping on; England is not an absolute monarchy today, yet we still have those same laws that you have attributed to one.

I don't recall David Cameron being executed.

[Wereparrot]

Wulfram wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

That doesn't make it any less treason. If you are correct then all Loghain is guilty of is dessertion and voluntary manslaughter. And while you're harping on; England is not an absolute monarchy today, yet we still have those same laws that you have attributed to one.

I don't recall David Cameron being executed.

Fair point. These laws stand, thats all I'm saying. Sometimes I wonder what these laws are still there for; they never use them.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 07 décembre 2010 - 11:10 .

[Wedger]

So, just because I am wondering as I read through these wonderfully crafted arguments, does this mean Loghain and Howe were guilty of treason for imprisoning the rightful Queen against her will?

[Persephone]

Wedger wrote...

So, just because I am wondering as I read through these wonderfully crafted arguments, does this mean Loghain and Howe were guilty of treason for imprisoning the rightful Queen against her will?

As it was Howe who imprisoned her and planned to kill her.... Well.....

[ejoslin]

Wereparrot wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Eamon calls a Landsmeet.

To try to legalise his own treason. Inciting nobles is sedition, on top of plotting against the queen (high treason), and imagining to deprive the queen of her crown (treason felony). 

There's a very good chance that Eamon is completely unconscious until he calls the Landsmeet so he's not plotting against the queen.  He IS trying to get Loghain out of power, but Loghain has no claim to be in power other than through a pure military coup.  Anora is not ruling -- Loghain is.  And Anora does not have the army to oust him, even if she wanted to. 

 Calling a Landsmeet to vote on a leader is NOT treason -- it's part of the way the governance of Ferelden works.  Anora has a claim, Alistair has a claim, and it's up to the Landsmeet to decide who has the stronger claim.

 As far as actually plotting against the queen?  Eamon the one who insists that the warden go and save her.  He's not trying to harm her, and in fact, she chooses to stay in his estate rather than the palace.

Edit; I personally do not like Eamon much.  But i don't think he's guilty of treason according to Ferelden's laws.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 décembre 2010 - 02:14 .

[Persephone]

ejoslin wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Eamon calls a Landsmeet.

To try to legalise his own treason. Inciting nobles is sedition, on top of plotting against the queen (high treason), and imagining to deprive the queen of her crown (treason felony). 

There's a very good chance that Eamon is completely unconscious until he calls the Landsmeet so he's not plotting against the queen.  He IS trying to get Loghain out of power, but Loghain has no claim to be in power other than through a pure military coup.  Anora is not ruling -- Loghain is.  And Anora does not have the army to oust him, even if she wanted to. 

 Calling a Landsmeet to vote on a leader is NOT treason -- it's part of the way the governance of Ferelden works.  Anora has a claim, Alistair has a claim, and it's up to the Landsmeet to decide who has the stronger claim.

 As far as actually plotting against the queen?  Eamon the one who insists that the warden go and save her.  He's not trying to harm her, and in fact, she chooses to stay in his estate rather than the palace.

RTO....letters to Cailan.....:happy: Telling his king to abandon a wife both loyal and competent because she hasn't birthed an heir yet..... It's not like Anora is 45. She isn't even 30. Anne Boleyn got married at 32 and conceived at least 3 times between 1532-1535. He is clearly plotting to get Anora out of the picture. And Cailan was beginning to agree. Remember the guard saying that Loghain and Cailan "fought about the queen"?