969 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Even with that, when Eamon was trying to influence Cailan into ditching Anora (which I don't believe was a huge factor in Cailan's decision as Eamon's letter states that he only brought it up once a year before Ostagar and Cailan got pissed and walked out), it's not treason for a noble to encourage his monarch to find a more fertile consort when he has no heir after several years of marriage. Yeah, I think Cailan was probably the one with the problem but it's not treason for Eamon to have a more sexist viewpoint on the matter.

[Persephone]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Even with that, when Eamon was trying to influence Cailan into ditching Anora (which I don't believe was a huge factor in Cailan's decision as Eamon's letter states that he only brought it up once a year before Ostagar and Cailan got pissed and walked out), it's not treason for a noble to encourage his monarch to find a more fertile consort when he has no heir after several years of marriage. Yeah, I think Cailan was probably the one with the problem but it's not treason for Eamon to have a more sexist viewpoint on the matter.

Is there are more irrevocable form of betraying one's queen though? (Except maybe plotting to kill her?) What would happen to Anora? Dishonor, disgrace, shame, humiliation..... And Loghain surely would not just look on while his only child is thrown aside like a broken toy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Even with that, when Eamon was trying to influence Cailan into ditching Anora (which I don't believe was a huge factor in Cailan's decision as Eamon's letter states that he only brought it up once a year before Ostagar and Cailan got pissed and walked out), it's not treason for a noble to encourage his monarch to find a more fertile consort when he has no heir after several years of marriage. Yeah, I think Cailan was probably the one with the problem but it's not treason for Eamon to have a more sexist viewpoint on the matter.

Depends on his motives.

Is he trying to find a fertile wife for Cailan (even though Cailan probably has a lot of mistresses)?
Or is he trying to get rid of Anora to boost his influence with Cailan (see him being un-enthusiastic about the Alistair / Anora couple)?
Or both (which is likely)?

But I won't get into the discussion of "treason", unless we have a clear law in Ferelden describing exactly what treason is. And even then, the winners are the ones who decide who the traitors are (the losers).
I would only use the word if a person's actions are deliberately and clearly undermining Ferelden interests, regardless of what or who its regime is. 

[ejoslin]

Persephone wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Eamon calls a Landsmeet.

To try to legalise his own treason. Inciting nobles is sedition, on top of plotting against the queen (high treason), and imagining to deprive the queen of her crown (treason felony). 

There's a very good chance that Eamon is completely unconscious until he calls the Landsmeet so he's not plotting against the queen.  He IS trying to get Loghain out of power, but Loghain has no claim to be in power other than through a pure military coup.  Anora is not ruling -- Loghain is.  And Anora does not have the army to oust him, even if she wanted to. 

 Calling a Landsmeet to vote on a leader is NOT treason -- it's part of the way the governance of Ferelden works.  Anora has a claim, Alistair has a claim, and it's up to the Landsmeet to decide who has the stronger claim.

 As far as actually plotting against the queen?  Eamon the one who insists that the warden go and save her.  He's not trying to harm her, and in fact, she chooses to stay in his estate rather than the palace.

RTO....letters to Cailan.....:happy: Telling his king to abandon a wife both loyal and competent because she hasn't birthed an heir yet..... It's not like Anora is 45. She isn't even 30. Anne Boleyn got married at 32 and conceived at least 3 times between 1532-1535. He is clearly plotting to get Anora out of the picture. And Cailan was beginning to agree. Remember the guard saying that Loghain and Cailan "fought about the queen"?

Well, that certainly isn't treason.  Cailan was King Regnant, Anora was his Queen Consort.  It may not have been very fair to Anora, but when a woman hits 30, her fertility does decrease, and while you cannot know what was causing the lack of children, telling the one with the bloodline you wish to preserve to try with someone else is not treason.

Edit; I think Eamon was doing his own maneuvering, mind you; he would have far more power with Cailan if Anora wasn't ruling in his stead.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 décembre 2010 - 02:35 .

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

So we keep going round in circles. To accuse Loghain and not Eamon, even to acknowledge Loghain's and not Eamon's, is rank hypocrisy.

Eamon didn't just declare Alistair king.  He called a Landsmeet and put forth his bid.  Apples, oranges.

Modifié par Addai67, 08 décembre 2010 - 02:59 .

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...
RTO....letters to Cailan.....:happy: Telling his king to abandon a wife both loyal and competent because she hasn't birthed an heir yet..... It's not like Anora is 45. She isn't even 30. Anne Boleyn got married at 32 and conceived at least 3 times between 1532-1535. He is clearly plotting to get Anora out of the picture. And Cailan was beginning to agree. Remember the guard saying that Loghain and Cailan "fought about the queen"?

A caddish thing to do, but not treason.  Advising the king to do something which would have required the Landsmeet's approval is not treason.  Pushing Anora off a bridge, okay.  That was probably Plan B. 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Is he trying to find a fertile wife for Cailan (even though Cailan probably has a lot of mistresses)?
Or is he trying to get rid of Anora to boost his influence with Cailan (see him being un-enthusiastic about the Alistair / Anora couple)?
Or both (which is likely)?

Maybe he just wanted a legitimate heir to the throne so squabbles over succession wouldn't be an issue if Cailan died young. It's hardly an uncommon motive.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Is he trying to find a fertile wife for Cailan (even though Cailan probably has a lot of mistresses)?
Or is he trying to get rid of Anora to boost his influence with Cailan (see him being un-enthusiastic about the Alistair / Anora couple)?
Or both (which is likely)?

Maybe he just wanted a legitimate heir to the throne so squabbles over succession wouldn't be an issue if Cailan died young. It's hardly an uncommon motive.

That's the first point (bolded).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 décembre 2010 - 03:06 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Yes, KoP, I can't see someone as shrewd as Eamon missing the fact that there is no glut of royal bastards. or even one. So I think Anora's supposed infertility is a convient excuse.

[nos_astra]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Yes, KoP, I can't see someone as shrewd as Eamon missing the fact that there is no glut of royal bastards. or even one. So I think Anora's supposed infertility is a convient excuse.

But there is birth control in Ferelden, Wynne tells you as much. If anyone has access to this magical birth control, you bet, it would be the king.

Maybe it is a convenient excuse to gently get rid of Anora and increase his in fluence on Cailan. Maybe it's genuine concern. Maybe it's both. We can't know.

Modifié par klarabella, 08 décembre 2010 - 07:53 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Is he trying to find a fertile wife for Cailan (even though Cailan probably has a lot of mistresses)?
Or is he trying to get rid of Anora to boost his influence with Cailan (see him being un-enthusiastic about the Alistair / Anora couple)?
Or both (which is likely)?

Maybe he just wanted a legitimate heir to the throne so squabbles over succession wouldn't be an issue if Cailan died young. It's hardly an uncommon motive.

That's the first point (bolded).

Sort of?

I admit I was a little thrown by the bracketted mistresses comment in the context of the rest of the sentence. On one hand it sounded like you were saying Eamon wants Cailan to have a fertile wife, but on the other there's the suggestion Cailan has misresses (verified by Anora), said mistresses may be fertile and provide an heir without being married. So I wasn't sure if you were proposing 'fertile wife' or just 'any child got by Cailan' or even 'marry him to one of his mistresses'.

By legitimate heir, I meant Cailan marries fertile girl and has child by same. No (apparent) issues of parentage.

Having a child by an unmarried woman would create a possible Alistair situation, especially if Anora herself suddenly conceives, and considering Eamon was the one who got saddled with the last royal bastard I doubt he wants to see that happen a second time.

And as for setting Anora aside to marry a mistress, if the Landsmeet is anything to go by it wouldn't work unless the lucky lady was a human noble. Even hardened Alistair didn't break *that* tradition.

[LupusYondergirl]

klarabella wrote...
But there is birth control in Ferelden, Wynne tells you as much. If anyone has access to this magical birth control, you bet, it would be the king.

Not necessarily.  Wynne could be talking about a spell, since she was referring to her own pregnancy.  There doesn't seem to be enough details given in the conversation to even tell if the birth control is universal, or something mages specifically can do to prevent births amongst themselves: a barrier spell of some kind, for instance.

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
And as for setting Anora aside
to marry a mistress, if the Landsmeet is anything to go by it wouldn't
work unless the lucky lady was a human noble. Even hardened Alistair
didn't break *that* tradition.

I always wondered if that was because the Warden isn't a noble, or because what they did happen to be made them otherwise ineligible: IE not human and/or a mage.  Would a human of non-noble blood have been acceptable, providing they weren't a mage? 
I suppose there's no way to ever know, since they got rid of the human commoner origin.  Just something I wondered about.

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 08 décembre 2010 - 08:11 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

LupusYondergirl wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...
And as for setting Anora aside to marry a mistress, if the Landsmeet is anything to go by it wouldn't work unless the lucky lady was a human noble. Even hardened Alistair didn't break *that* tradition.

I always wondered if that was because the Warden isn't a noble, or because what they did happen to be made them otherwise ineligible: IE not human and/or a mage.  Would a human of non-noble blood have been acceptable, providing they weren't a mage? 
I suppose there's no way to ever know, since they got rid of the human commoner origin.  Just something I wondered about.

Good point. At the least, it would have to be someone the Landsmeet would accept. And in the case of Cailan/Anora, I'm guessing it would have to be someone who can hold a candle to the current Queen Consort (or whatever her official title is) since she's the one doing most of the governing IIRC.

In a theoretical Human Commoner origin with Alistair, becoming a hero, gathering the armies and possibly uniting (most of) the nobility at the Landsmeet could count as a big plus for being accepted as queen. Plus, you know, Alistair could just make you a noble by giving you Gwaren and THEN marry you.

Edit: Non-royal nobility seem to have a much easier time of it. I don't think we hear of Isolde's connections as Arl Eamon's wife, other than her race, same deal with Fergus Cousland's wife Oriana, Bann Teagan can end up marrying a commoner...etc.

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 08 décembre 2010 - 08:27 .

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

So we keep going round in circles. To accuse Loghain and not Eamon, even to acknowledge Loghain's and not Eamon's, is rank hypocrisy.

Eamon didn't just declare Alistair king.  He called a Landsmeet and put forth his bid.  Apples, oranges.

As far as I can recall, the Landsmeet was called to ascertain Loghain's treason, and the king/queen thing came about as a result of that, which you ultimately have control over. I'm sorry; under law, both Loghain and Eamon are guilty of trason; Eamon's may be more democratic but in no way does that excuse him; it in fact makes me think of a more peaceful version of the Gunpowder Plot-but no one would say tthat wasn't treason. If, as you say, 'he called a Landsmeet and put forth his bid,' he is also guilty of sedition in trying to incite other nobles to his treason. I know I am going by my own law, but there is nothing else to go by. If it is different in Ferelden, then we have yet to hear of it. Don't forget, we already have a ruling queen, and Loghain's 'regency' reminds me strongly of Sir Roger Mortimer, when he ruled England with Edward II still alive, yet powerless, and then Edward III, until Mortimer was arrested and Edward III able to resume his kingship. I suspect Loghain may have been partially inspired by Mortimer, what with Anora still queen but essentially powerless. It doesn't make Anora any less queen. 

Also, I think you may be blinded by Eamon's apparent well meaning nature. 

Modifié par Wereparrot, 08 décembre 2010 - 03:18 .

[Wereparrot]

Wedger wrote...

So, just because I am wondering as I read through these wonderfully crafted arguments, does this mean Loghain and Howe were guilty of treason for imprisoning the rightful Queen against her will?

Yes. Case in point: Sir Roger Mortimer.

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

So we keep going round in circles. To accuse Loghain and not Eamon, even to acknowledge Loghain's and not Eamon's, is rank hypocrisy.

Eamon didn't just declare Alistair king.  He called a Landsmeet and put forth his bid.  Apples, oranges.

As far as I can recall, the Landsmeet was called to ascertain Loghain's treason, and the king/queen thing came about as a result of that, which you ultimately have control over. I'm sorry; under law, both Loghain and Eamon are guilty of trason; Eamon's may be more democratic but in no way does that excuse him; it in fact makes me think of a more peaceful version of the Gunpowder Plot-but no one would say tthat wasn't treason. If, as you say, 'he called a Landsmeet and put forth his bid,' he is also guilty of sedition in trying to incite other nobles to his treason. I know I am going by my own law, but there is nothing else to go by. If it is different in Ferelden, then we have yet to hear of it. Don't forget, we already have a ruling queen, and Loghain's 'regency' reminds me strongly of Sir Roger Mortimer, when he ruled England with Edward II still alive, yet powerless, and then Edward III, until Mortimer was arrested and Edward III able to resume his kingship. I suspect Loghain may have been partially inspired by Mortimer, what with Anora still queen but essentially powerless. It doesn't make Anora any less queen. 

Also, I think you may be blinded by Eamon's apparent well meaning nature. 

I'm sorry, but you're arguing from English law and not game lore.  As long as that is all you're willing to do and you're not going to listen to the codex and other game bits in contrary, there's no point in discussing it.  You can try and convict Eamon in the English court if you like.  He'll just say "what's England?"

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

So we keep going round in circles. To accuse Loghain and not Eamon, even to acknowledge Loghain's and not Eamon's, is rank hypocrisy.

Eamon didn't just declare Alistair king.  He called a Landsmeet and put forth his bid.  Apples, oranges.

As far as I can recall, the Landsmeet was called to ascertain Loghain's treason, and the king/queen thing came about as a result of that, which you ultimately have control over. I'm sorry; under law, both Loghain and Eamon are guilty of trason; Eamon's may be more democratic but in no way does that excuse him; it in fact makes me think of a more peaceful version of the Gunpowder Plot-but no one would say tthat wasn't treason. If, as you say, 'he called a Landsmeet and put forth his bid,' he is also guilty of sedition in trying to incite other nobles to his treason. I know I am going by my own law, but there is nothing else to go by. If it is different in Ferelden, then we have yet to hear of it. Don't forget, we already have a ruling queen, and Loghain's 'regency' reminds me strongly of Sir Roger Mortimer, when he ruled England with Edward II still alive, yet powerless, and then Edward III, until Mortimer was arrested and Edward III able to resume his kingship. I suspect Loghain may have been partially inspired by Mortimer, what with Anora still queen but essentially powerless. It doesn't make Anora any less queen. 

Also, I think you may be blinded by Eamon's apparent well meaning nature. 

I'm sorry, but you're arguing from English law and not game lore.  As long as that is all you're willing to do and you're not going to listen to the codex and other game bits in contrary, there's no point in discussing it.  You can try and convict Eamon in the English court if you like.  He'll just say "what's England?"

I get your point but I don't remember reading anything about a Fereldan treason law. Am I wrong?  You were in the Loghain thread; you must know I only feel this so strongly because I don't recognize Alastair's claim to the throne. 

EDIT: What it says about the Landsmeet is not good enough IMO, as it mentions nothing about plotting against the king/queen.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 08 décembre 2010 - 10:31 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Hanz54321 wrote...

There's magical birth control in this game? And Wynne discusses it?

OK - that's where I draw the line at silly things writers put into video games.

It's relevant to this discussion . . . I just can't believe they actually made it a point to put that into the game and left so many other things out. Hilarious.

Even in ancient times, there were various substances used for birth control and abortions, such as certain herbs, minerals, ect, and they were reasonably effective, as far as folk medicine goes. 

However, I agree magical birth control would be lame, but I'm not sure that's what Wynne said. She just said that there were methods of preventing accidents, if I remember correctly.

As far as Eamon's concern goes, I find it amusing he was telling Cailan to ditch Anora for someone else. His own wife seems to be capable of producing only mages, which as far as Chantry and ferelden law is concerned, is the next best thing to being barren, since your kids can't inherit anything or have titles or positions of authority.

Of course, the rulership of redcliffe is not nearly as important as the succession of the throne in denerim, but still. Maybe Eamon should lead by example by ditching his pseudo-barren wifey first. <_<

[Wulfram]

Eamon didn't know that Connor was a mage. And he has a brother - who admittedly really should hurry up and marry someone. And he's not King.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

He knows now that Connor is a mage. And Isolde caused nothing but problems, too. I think he should get rid of her. How can he ask the king to do something he himself won't do?

[Wulfram]

No one would really care if the Guerrins went extinct, so it's different.

[bleetman]

Hanz54321 wrote...

There's magical birth control in this game? And Wynne discusses it?

OK - that's where I draw the line at silly things writers put into video games.

It's relevant to this discussion . . . I just can't believe they actually made it a point to put that into the game and left so many other things out. Hilarious.

It's not so much discussed as mentioned in passing, during one of her banters with Alistair:

"So you... mentioned you had a son? What happened to him?"
"I honestly don't know, Alistair. He was... taken from me. Such births are seldom, as there are ways to prevent it, but it does happen."

I don't recall any explanation of it, magical or otherwise, beyond that brief mention. But aside from anything else, there's always, y'know, coitus interruptus.

ANYWAY. Eamon, huh? What an ass that guy is.

Modifié par bleetman, 08 décembre 2010 - 10:17 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Hanz54321 wrote...

OOOOooooh is dis Evil Elf, TeaGHAAAN?!

I never pass an opportunity to mock Isolde's speaking.

>>>reaches for nails to drive into eardrums<<<<<<<

Ahhhh, sweet relief!

God, no wonder Eamon is such an asswipe. Having to wake up to THAT shrieking in your ear every moring...

Maybe Eamon really poisoned himself and asked Loghain to take credit.

Modifié par Skadi_the_Evil_Elf, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:49 .