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[Wedger]

Wow.  This post has gotten strange.  But in a good way, I suppose. 

[Addai]

ArawnNox wrote...

CalJones wrote...
aka don't shoot in the penalty box, or just use the backdoor.

I just had a horrifying thought. What if it's not that Anora is having fertility issues, but that she and Cailen are "doing it wrong."?

LOL!  Not to derail further, or spoil anyone's lunch, but there are subtler methods as well.  Most women know that there are signs when you're in the "cuddly time."  If you know what to look for, you can pinpoint it pretty accurately.  There were herbal preparations in the ancient world as well, but those were pretty extreme and not really what I was talking about.

Hoookaaaay.  That's enough of that.  Back to Eamon!  How about that beard!

[ejoslin]

edit: Actually, never mind.  A post on the history of birth control is probably NOT appropriate here!

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 décembre 2010 - 05:56 .

[Leonia]

/lurk



I have some very strong opinions on Eamon that I am hoping to share at some point but this thread keeps..meandering onto various topics. I'm kind of not sure if what I think hasn't been said already.

[Esbatty]

leonia42 wrote...

/lurk

I have some very strong opinions on Eamon that I am hoping to share at some point but this thread keeps..meandering onto various topics. I'm kind of not sure if what I think hasn't been said already.

Do share, I also have beef with his beardedness.

Sometimes I wish I could leave both the Circle Tower and Redcliffe to their fates. Sure alot of innocent people would die but - eh - I'll just play up the Grey Wardens more as the CIA rather than the FBI.

[Leonia]

I think he's a manipulative bastard and I'm trying to remember where I read it but I am pretty sure he had a falling out with Maric at some point (think it was due to Eamon wanting to marry Isolde). I mean, given how he raised Alistair and how he keen he was to put him on the throne.. also how keen he was to manipulate Cailan and his relationship with Anora.. I think the guy just wants to rule the throne without having to sit on the throne and take the responsiblity on himself. He reminds me a lot of that mage in The Stolen Throne who was helping Meghren (I think his name was Severus or something?) and is totally playing the role of puppet-master.

We know that he had poor relations with Loghain before the Blight (probably where I am getting the idea that Maric and Eamon didn't quite see eye-to-eye) and maybe there was a good reason for that (other than Loghain just being paranoid and somewhat delusional, which I don't think he would have been in regards to Eamon, I mean Eamon was Rowan's brother).

I am convinced that Eamon wasn't pressuring Cailan to ditch Anora because of her fertility but because she was a commoner. In addition to that, I think he was manipulating the whole Cailan-Celene relationship behind the scenes. The guy is pretty Pro-Orlais. I always thought Isolde married him because of his status (his sister on the throne, he being the new Arl of Redcliffe) but maybe there was more going on there and Eamon wanted his fingers in some Orlesian matters so that he could have some influence over there in addition to influence in Ferelden. That way, when his master plan to overtake the throne (or rule from the sidelines as he wanted to do so he never has to take responsibility for any messy decisions/consequences) would put him in a position to manipulate the political scene of both countries with ease.

Also, I have a wild theory that Eamon is responsible to some extent for Maric's death. Get rid of one uncooperative Theirin, go to plan B (Cailan), oops Cailan dies at Ostagar go to plan C, bring in Alistair.

And if that's not enough, if you make Anora solo-ruler of Ferelden and then play through Witch-hunt you'll see a note on the map for Redcliffe that there is a potential military uprising being organised by Eamon against Anora. So at that point he's falling back on more direct measures to get what he wants. This is after you go through the trouble of stopping one civil war already (insighted by Teagan, no less, though I don't think Teagan is "in league" with his brother's scheming).

Oh and I forgot to mention I think Eamon makes a deal with the Grand Cleric (the one Alistair mentions when he talks about how Duncan recruited him). So maybe Eamon has his fingers in Chantry affairs too.

And he's a terrible father figure to Alistair yet he gushes over Conner like nobody's business. What's that all about? What, he can't treat the son of a king with a bit of dignity but his half-Orlesian son can be totally flaunted over? Actually, this is where the source of my rage against Eamon comes from. He's a freaking hypocrite, in addition to be a lieing, manipulative power-hungry fiend. And he broke his promise to Maric. What the hell. Maric didn't deserve that, Alistair certainly didn't deserve it.  

TL;DR: Good on Loghain for poisoning the man, too bad Jowan had to screw it up by helping an overly selfish Isolde (oh she has so much in common with her husband..).

EDIT: Last edit, I swear.

Modifié par leonia42, 11 décembre 2010 - 07:50 .

[Addai]

The bit about Eamon and Maric is interesting. Supposedly Maric got in hot water for helping some Orlesians assimilate, but obviously he didn't like Isolde (no surprise there). I am assuming that he wanted to help them, but having a prominent nobleman in his family marry one was a little too much controversy.

[Leonia]

Addai67 wrote...

The bit about Eamon and Maric is interesting. Supposedly Maric got in hot water for helping some Orlesians assimilate, but obviously he didn't like Isolde (no surprise there). I am assuming that he wanted to help them, but having a prominent nobleman in his family marry one was a little too much controversy.

Not to mention he probably could tell Isolde was just a gold-digger of sorts. And that would add more drama to the household that was supposed to raise Alistair. There was little he could do but advise Eamon to make some decent decisions and Eamon just didn't seem to give a rat's arse about what his king wanted. The Isolde situation is probably what triggered the animosity between Eamon and Loghain as well.

[Leonia]

Esbatty wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

/lurk

I have some very strong opinions on Eamon that I am hoping to share at some point but this thread keeps..meandering onto various topics. I'm kind of not sure if what I think hasn't been said already.

Do share, I also have beef with his beardedness.

Sometimes I wish I could leave both the Circle Tower and Redcliffe to their fates. Sure alot of innocent people would die but - eh - I'll just play up the Grey Wardens more as the CIA rather than the FBI.

You know.. the only reason I help Redcliffe is because Teagan asks for your help. And ignoring how attractive and kind Teagan is, his heart seems to be in the right place and how can you say no to him? He's so UNLIKE Eamon that it's crazy. He is a man who stands up for what's right, even against terrible odds. He's the only person who stands up to Loghain (I looove that cut scene) and he stands up for his weak-arse brother (though he probably has no idea how slimy Eamon truly is). 

I wonder what Rowan thought of her brothers and if she got along with them? The three of them all seem so radically different from one another.

[nos_astra]

Teagan has not nearly enough screen time to judge his character.

Sure, he's kind, his heart is in the right place. But he's as much a reluctant leader as Alistair is. The first Landsmeet is his crowning moment of awesome, but he takes Eamon's place, very likely doing what he thinks his brother would do. Yes, he's unlike Eamon, Eamon is a politician, one other nobles look to for guidance. You don't get that kind of reputation for being kind and making people feel comfortable, that's not the point of politics.

Rowan was the oldest of the three Guerrin children. Eamon and Teagan were sent to safety during the rebellion (they were too young to participate), that explains it a bit.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 décembre 2010 - 08:31 .

[Leonia]

True, and I think even the codex entry on Teagan shows his reluctance to be involved in politics. Maybe that's why I find him more likeable. Meh, I wish Teagan had been responsible for Alistair's upbringing instead of Eamon but maybe he just wasn't old enough at the time to do it.

[nos_astra]

When Eamon took Alistair in he was still young (maybe around 25?) and adjusting to leading an Arling, and Isolde was even younger. Teagan must have been younger than 20.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 décembre 2010 - 08:35 .

[Addai]

leonia42 wrote...

I wonder what Rowan thought of her brothers and if she got along with them? The three of them all seem so radically different from one another.

There's a sad aimo fanart of Rowan saying goodbye to her brothers.


http://aimo.devianta...ister-177020933

Modifié par Addai67, 11 décembre 2010 - 08:43 .

[Leonia]

Daw! I'm going to go have a cry now.

[nos_astra]

Awww, little Teagan is too cute.

[Esbatty]

Teagan flirts so easily with my female wardens. To bad they're all about the Leliana - or my rare FHN, Alistair. He is kind of dreamy.



...



Wait what thread am I in again? *scrolls up* Oh crap.

[nos_astra]

If you think about it, I can see why Eamon is what he is. He was older when he had to leave for the Marches, maybe at an age where you feel you're a grown man, and then he was told he was too young to fight and had to leave. When he came back, he had inherited an Arling, and fell in love with the daughter of the Orlesians who had held Redcliffe.

Considering how young Isolde was and how her being Orlesian must have been a problem for many people, I can see why she wanted Alistair out of her sight.

The more I think about him, the more I see what an interesting character he is. I don't think Eamon is a bad man, he just feels responsible for Redcliffe and Ferelden, much like Anora and Loghain do, too.

The story of Eamon and Teagan would be worth telling. Look, plot bunnies everywhere!

Modifié par klarabella, 11 décembre 2010 - 08:55 .

[Sarah1281]

leonia42 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The bit about Eamon and Maric is interesting. Supposedly Maric got in hot water for helping some Orlesians assimilate, but obviously he didn't like Isolde (no surprise there). I am assuming that he wanted to help them, but having a prominent nobleman in his family marry one was a little too much controversy.

Not to mention he probably could tell Isolde was just a gold-digger of sorts. And that would add more drama to the household that was supposed to raise Alistair. There was little he could do but advise Eamon to make some decent decisions and Eamon just didn't seem to give a rat's arse about what his king wanted. The Isolde situation is probably what triggered the animosity between Eamon and Loghain as well.

Isolde may be annoying and her actions may have caused a horrific tragedy but she is in no way a gold-digger. Her family ruled Redcliffe during the Orlesian occupation which means that she was an Orlesian noble. What part of marrying the guy who retook his Arling and being forced to deal with blatant anti-Orlesian sentiment since the end of the rebellion strikes you as 'gold-digger'? 

Modifié par Sarah1281, 11 décembre 2010 - 03:04 .

[Leonia]

Sarah1281 wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

The
bit about Eamon and Maric is interesting. Supposedly Maric got in hot
water for helping some Orlesians assimilate, but obviously he didn't
like Isolde (no surprise there). I am assuming that he wanted to help
them, but having a prominent nobleman in his family marry one was a
little too much controversy.

Not to mention he probably
could tell Isolde was just a gold-digger of sorts. And that would add
more drama to the household that was supposed to raise Alistair. There
was little he could do but advise Eamon to make some decent decisions
and Eamon just didn't seem to give a rat's arse about what his king
wanted. The Isolde situation is probably what triggered the animosity
between Eamon and Loghain as well.

Isolde may be
annoying and her actions may have caused a horrific tragedy but she is
in no way a gold-digger. Her family ruled Redcliffe during the Orlesian
occupation which means that she was an Orlesian noble. What part of
marrying the guy who retook his Arling and being forced to deal with
blatant anti-Orlesian sentiment since the end of the rebellion strikes
you as 'gold-digger'? 

The fact that by marrying him she can remain in power over Redcliffe (she would have inherited the title of Arlessa if Orlais had continued to remain in power eventually so it was her birthright of sorts)? She may very well love him (and from the sound of things, he certainly does love her) but it always seemed a bit suspicious that her family was ousted (or did they go back willingly, can't remember) to Orlais and she remained in Ferelden. I could very well be reading too much into it.

Also, I doubt Maric disliked her simply because she was Orlesian (given his willigness to engage in a relationship with Fiona, an Orlesian Grey Warden in the novels and his willigness to meet with Empress Celene, also mentioned in The Calling). So the only other thing I could think of is he thinks Isolde is making a power grab of sorts.

Modifié par leonia42, 11 décembre 2010 - 03:15 .

[Sarah1281]

Isolde's Codex...

Isolde's family was the tenth to be given the difficult task of governing Redcliffe, and since most of the previous arls had either been murdered by their banns or beheaded by the emperor, they did not approach the job with a great deal of enthusiasm.

Isolde met Eamon, not realizing he was the rightful heir to her father's domain, and quickly became smitten with him for being part of the resistance--never mind that it was her family he was resisting. Perhaps a bit too romantic for her own good, she insisted upon staying behind with Eamon when the rest of her family was driven out.

They didn't even want the job since it was so dangerous and difficult and Isolde just fell in love with him. It's not very sensible to stay but since when has Isolde EVER been sensible? She happened to be a noble with no sense who fell in love with another noble who wasn't concerned about the political implications of his choice for once. No gold digging involved and her family already would have been Orlesian nobility. Being a Ferelden lord might have been okay under the occupation but once they were driven out, it was not going to be particularly appealing to Orlesians trapped in backwater Ferelden with no contact with Orlais. I really don't see how staying in post-war Ferelden was a step up for her.

Edit: Maric could also just personally dislike her for her personality. And who even knows if he did personally dislike her? Maric engaging in a secret relationship with Fiona no one found out about or officially opening up diplomatic ties with Orlais once a new ruler took power is hardly the same as marrying an Orlesian noblewoman practically the minute the war ended. The people and other nobles weren't happy with this and as Eamon's brother-in-law Maric had to deal with the scandal.

I have plenty of issues with Eamon, too, but pretty much everything you're saying is WMG.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 11 décembre 2010 - 03:21 .

[Leonia]

It sounds like staying in Ferelden was a dangerous thing to do, Orlesians weren't well liked and her relationship with Eamon certainly wasn't well-received. If I were her, I would have gone back to Orlais, it would have been the easier thing to do.

But.. you are right, she isn't exactly the most sensible person in the world and my extreme hatred for Isolde is probably clouding my judgement a bit here (she strikes me as one of the most selfish characters in Origins with the way she handles the Conner situation).

Sarah1281 wrote...

Edit: Maric could also just personally
dislike her for her personality. And who even knows if he did personally
dislike her? Maric engaging in a secret relationship with Fiona no one
found out about or officially opening up diplomatic ties with Orlais
once a new ruler took power is hardly the same as marrying an Orlesian
noblewoman practically the minute the war ended. The people and other
nobles weren't happy with this and as Eamon's brother-in-law Maric had
to deal with the scandal.
 

Yeah, that's very likely. Maybe Maric was just stressed at having to deal with the situation to begin with and you're right again that the two situations (Maric's relationship with Fiona and Eamon's with Isolde) aren't exactly identical scenarios.

Modifié par leonia42, 11 décembre 2010 - 03:26 .

[nos_astra]

leonia42 wrote...
she strikes me as one of the most selfish characters in Origins with the way she handles the Conner situation

She merely employs an apostate to teach her son. That's wrong according to the law, but understandable, and while risky, it's also brave. She fights for her son instead of abandoning him, in a world where mages are feared (and children often killed when their magic talent is revealed).

Everything else is caused by Jowan and Isolde doesn't know how to deal with it. I have yet to see how she is exceptionally seflish.

Modifié par klarabella, 11 décembre 2010 - 03:35 .

[Leonia]

Jowan didn't encourage the demon to possess Conner and he wasn't even an apprentice, if I recall, so he's barely capable of teaching anyone magic, let alone a young boy who is being hidden from the Circle. Isolde knew there was magic in her family, and while she couldn't predict that Conner would become a mage, she should have given him to the Circle when he showed signs of magic. Yes, it's tragic that she would have to give up her child but she probably would have been allowed to see him from time to time at the Circle (this is certainly implied if Isolde dies and Eamon says he stays in contact with Conner at the Circle). Several mothers have to give up their children to the Circle when they become mages, she wouldn't be the first. The whole village of Redcliffe is put in a compromising situation because the woman made a careless mistake. 

At the very least, she could have found a more competent mage to train Conner than the man who tried to poison her husband (not that I would approve of that either but it may have helped Conner control his power and avoid the demon situation). She could have done a *little* more research into Jowan before hiring him on.

In a lot of ways, and yeah I'm breaking out the Star Wars metaphors here, the situation is similar to how Anakin tries to protect Padme from dieing. He makes one really bad decision (trusting the Emperor) because he loves her. While not a perfect analogy (George Lucas isn't exactly Shakespeare when it comes to writing quality) it shows that love can lead to destruction. This is essentially what happens with Isolde and if her decision had only affected her and her family, I may be more willing to forgive it. But look at all the people who suffered for her mistake. It is love, yes, but it is also selfish to not comply with the laws especially when she already understands how dangerous magic is (having a family history and all).

Modifié par leonia42, 11 décembre 2010 - 03:45 .

[jpdipity]

klarabella wrote...

If you think about it, I can see why Eamon is what he is. He was older when he had to leave for the Marches, maybe at an age where you feel you're a grown man, and then he was told he was too young to fight and had to leave. When he came back, he had inherited an Arling, and fell in love with the daughter of the Orlesians who had held Redcliffe.

Considering how young Isolde was and how her being Orlesian must have been a problem for many people, I can see why she wanted Alistair out of her sight.

The more I think about him, the more I see what an interesting character he is. I don't think Eamon is a bad man, he just feels responsible for Redcliffe and Ferelden, much like Anora and Loghain do, too.

The story of Eamon and Teagan would be worth telling. Look, plot bunnies everywhere!

Eamon was likely pretty young when he was sent to the Free Marshes.  He was 15 when his father died and in the book it implies that he and Teagan have been away so long that they likely would not even recognize their father any longer.

According to wikia (which may or may not be entirely accurate and I am not on my computer to verify the codexes myself) - Isolde fell in love with Eamon during the occupation.  She was attracted to him because he was part of the resistance even though he opposed her family.  She stayed with him when her family was run out of Fereldan.

There is a 3 year gap in the book, perhaps Eamon returned after his father's death and joined the resistance during those 3 years?

Like Loghain's father, Eamon feels that it is important to have Therin blood on the throne.  Although clearly not shared by all, it appears to be a common viewpoint in Fereldan.  Even though I may not agree with it entirely, I can understand why some are willing to lay down their lives for this belief.

I am not entirely sold on Alistair's version of how he was raised by Eamon anyway.  He was young before being sent away and a child's perception of reality is often skewed.  We are never given an alternative viewpoint to put Alistair's perception into perspective.  It sort of feels like when a child thinks "Mommy & Daddy are divorcing because of me" when it is actually for many other reasons none of which have to do with the child.

EDIT - I type too slow... some of this has already been mentioned and discussed.  Oops.

Modifié par jpdipity, 11 décembre 2010 - 04:02 .