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[naledgeborn]

As I understand it, Loghain claims that Eamon knew of his son's "condition". He went along with Isolde's plan anyway and allowed Connor to be trained by an apostate due to his staunch conservatism in regards to noble inheritance.

[Addai]

(husband)



I think it OK to dislike Isolde for being a generally selfish and narcissistic person.





Also as far as the standards of what a "good parent" would do in such a case. While not a parent myself, I consider my parents role models in the area. While they would want to protect me etc. I really can't imagine them being willing to sacrifice the whole village and knights of the castle to keep me alive the way Isolde does through most of that quest line....

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

naledgeborn wrote...

As I understand it, Loghain claims that Eamon knew of his son's "condition". He went along with Isolde's plan anyway and allowed Connor to be trained by an apostate due to his staunch conservatism in regards to noble inheritance.

Do you remember where you heard/read this? Because I was under the impression that Eamon knew nothing about Connor's magic, from both Isolde and Jowan.

[naledgeborn]

Ask Loghain if he thinks Alistair would be a good king, then ask about Eamon. I'm telling y'all Isolde's accent doesn't hold a candle to Eamon's subtlety

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
That it also serves as a ftting punishment for Isolde is simply extra.

I don't get it, I am sorry.

I just don't. No matter how heinous a person's crime is, the death of someone else who had nothing to do with it, is not something I can't see as punishment. I see it as a tragedy befalling that person. Perhaps it was partially of his / her own doing, but I won't consider it punishment. I think that would be degrading the death of the innocent, to consider it punishment for the crimes of another.

Then again, my religious faith says that no one is responsable for any other's sins or good deeds and as such everyone is judged independently. As such, I do not see the death of an innocent as punishment for the guilty.
So personal differences I guess.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 décembre 2010 - 07:57 .

[Persephone]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
That it also serves as a ftting punishment for Isolde is simply extra.

I don't get it, I am sorry.

I just don't. No matter how heinous a person's crime is, the death of someone else who had nothing to do with it, is not something I can't see that as punishment. I see it as a tragedy befalling that person. Perhaps it was partial of his / her own doing, but I won't consider it punishment. I think that would be degrading the death of the innocent, to consider it punishment for the crimes of another.

Then again, my religious faith says that no one is responsable for any other's sins or good deeds and as such everyone is judged independently. As such, I do not see the death of an innocent as punishment for the guilty.
So personal differences I guess.

This. I dislike Isolde with a passion... But there is nothing worse that can happen to a mother than losing her child. (Never mind that it's largely due to her own stupidity) Her VOs when you decide to kill Connor and she begs you not to & then pleads with you to let her do it at least....are so gutwrenching. Annoying accent or no, that had me in tears.

[naledgeborn]

Persephone wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
That it also serves as a ftting punishment for Isolde is simply extra.

I don't get it, I am sorry.

I just don't. No matter how heinous a person's crime is, the death of someone else who had nothing to do with it, is not something I can't see that as punishment. I see it as a tragedy befalling that person. Perhaps it was partial of his / her own doing, but I won't consider it punishment. I think that would be degrading the death of the innocent, to consider it punishment for the crimes of another.

Then again, my religious faith says that no one is responsable for any other's sins or good deeds and as such everyone is judged independently. As such, I do not see the death of an innocent as punishment for the guilty.
So personal differences I guess.

This. I dislike Isolde with a passion... But there is nothing worse that can happen to a mother than losing her child. (Never mind that it's largely due to her own stupidity) Her VOs when you decide to kill Connor and she begs you not to & then pleads with you to let her do it at least....are so gutwrenching. Annoying accent or no, that had me in tears.

I agree except for the tears part. I usually kill Connor and I get a better understanding of Duncan's sentiment towards Jory and the Joining.

[Ryzaki]

I found it a case of bitter irony. She sacrificed so many other people so that he could live and stay with her only to be forced to kill him with her own hands.

Though I don't usually let her kill him. I have my PC do it themselves as quickly as possible. The woman was being hysterical and had to be knocked out.

And yes Conner gets major credit for being able to look the PC in the eye and accept it unlike Isolde.

Also: Isolde showing no regret over Redcliffe disgusts me. Why oh why can't the PC call her out on that. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 11 décembre 2010 - 08:07 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
That it also serves as a ftting punishment for Isolde is simply extra.

I don't get it, I am sorry.

I just don't. No matter how heinous a person's crime is, the death of someone else who had nothing to do with it, is not something I can't see as punishment. I see it as a tragedy befalling that person. Perhaps it was partially of his / her own doing, but I won't consider it punishment. I think that would be degrading the death of the innocent, to consider it punishment for the crimes of another.

Then again, my religious faith says that no one is responsable for any other's sins or good deeds and as such everyone is judged independently. As such, I do not see the death of an innocent as punishment for the guilty.
So personal differences I guess.

I am not talking about Connor being killed to punish his mother, if that's what you are thinking.

It is a punishment of circumstance, not a direct one. In otherwords, Connor is not being killed to punish Isolde. Connor is being killed because it is determined to be the safest, quickest way to end the horrors of redcliffe. However, in doing so, Isolde ends up being punished as a consequence, not a direct intention. Whether intended or not, it is a punishment for Isolde in every way possible, whether you intended for it to be or not.

Does that make any sense now?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Does that make any sense now?

It does and I reject the notion that it is a fitting punishment.
For me it isn't, not even an indirect one. 

But that's just me.

[Wulfram]

Isolde didn't sacrifice anyone. Sacrifice implies decision, and Isolde did not make any decision to sacrifice anyone's life, because she did not know that would be the consequence of her actions.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It does and I reject the notion that it is a fitting punishment.
For me it isn't, not even an indirect one. 

But that's just me.

It is to me if you allow her to do the killing blow. She created this mess, and thus, will end it. Connor is innocent, and does not deserve to be punished for what his mother did. However, if killing Connor is deemed the only viable option, then I feel it fitting his mother should be the one doing the deed, instead of my Warden having to kill a kid who she doesn't really want to kill, but feels that it is the only choice. But here, we will disagree on this matter.

Another thing that burns me about Isolde is that unless you sacrifice her, she gets off with no punishment whatsoever. She continues to live a life of a privilaged noble, with no repercussions whatsoever for all the death and destruction she caused, as well as blatant violation/flouting of Chantry law.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Another thing that burns me about Isolde is that unless you sacrifice her, she gets off with no punishment whatsoever. She continues to live a life of a privilaged noble, with no repercussions whatsoever for all the death and destruction she caused, as well as blatant violation/flouting of Chantry law.

I dunno, she loses her only child to the Tower and then can end up dying in childbirth.  Plus Eamon says she doesn't want to return to Redcliffe, so obviously she carries a lot of guilt and is no doubt treated coldly there (understandably so).  She was selfish, but the impulse was still a natural one, to protect her child.

I also think that my PC as a warrior type would never force a woman to kill her own child if she didn't insist on it herself.  A person used to killing should do it.

Which makes me sad for all our PCs, that they are that sort of person.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

My main PC did not feel she should have to be the one to kill Connor. She liked the kid. She did not desire his death. However, given that Isolde and Teagan have thrust the descison fully on her, she felt that Isolde should be the one to carry out the "sentance", since Isolde started it all. She's already had to kill a bunch of people she would rather not have. If they didn't like her choice, they shouldn't have pushed it on her to begin with. Sparing Isolde's the tragic task of killing her own child does not figure into it.



Anyway, isolde does not get punished as far as the laws of the Land and society go. She does not get tried or punished in a legal sense, where as I'm pretty sure had she been a simple commoner doing the same thing, she'd be strung up in Ft. Drakon or some prison run by the Chantry. But she does not, instead, she gets to carry on with her comfortable life, guilt or no guilt. One can argue what is worse, but in terms of law, again, nobles/aristocracy, as usual, are under a different set of standards than the rest of the lowly mortals.

[nos_astra]

As a mother I can't roleplay accepting Isolde's offer to kill Connor. It's such a horrible idea. If my PC thinks Connor has to die, she will have to do it herself (in my mind Zevran offers to do it, but it's not any easier for him).

Modifié par klarabella, 11 décembre 2010 - 09:01 .

[CalJones]

I've killed Connor once (on a playthrough I didn't keep) and it's pretty rough. However, I feel no regret at letting Jowan kill Isolde. Whilst she doesn't admit her guilt in what happened to the people of Redcliffe, it does allow her some form of redemption whilst, at the same time, sparing an innocent (Connor). The fact that it removes a whiny Orlesian god-botherer from the equation is a bonus.

[Sarah1281]

naledgeborn wrote...

Ask Loghain if he thinks Alistair would be a good king, then ask about Eamon. I'm telling y'all Isolde's accent doesn't hold a candle to Eamon's subtlety

Specifically, it's the 'I don't think Eamon would be that petty' line after you ask why Eamon would support Alistair if Loghain is right that the Banns all think he'll be weak and look to take advantage. He talks about how Eamon is traditional and doesn't want anyone even vaguely commoner-ish on the throne. Since I don't think many of us think that Eamon wouldn't be that petty, it's easy to see why that line would be missed.

[Ryzaki]

So she didn't indirectly cause the death of all those people who died at Redcliffe? None of that had happened if she hadn't schemed and sent Conner to the circle. Her actions as Teagan said made everything to follow possible.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 décembre 2010 - 02:06 .

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

So she didn't indirectly cause the death of all those people who died at Redcliffe? None of that had happened if she hadn't schemed and sent Conner to the circle. Her actions as Teagan said made everything to follow possible.

She is just one of many responsible for that and I think Jowan and his blood magic books and poisoning of Eamon thus prompting Connor to make a deal with a demon in the first place was much more responsible than Isolde. Had she gone with, say, the Mage's Collective to tutor her son than things would probably have ended less tragically.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So she didn't indirectly cause the death of all those people who died at Redcliffe? None of that had happened if she hadn't schemed and sent Conner to the circle. Her actions as Teagan said made everything to follow possible.

She is just one of many responsible for that and I think Jowan and his blood magic books and poisoning of Eamon thus prompting Connor to make a deal with a demon in the first place was much more responsible than Isolde. Had she gone with, say, the Mage's Collective to tutor her son than things would probably have ended less tragically.

So many people had a hand in that whole mess it's kinda hard to put the blame on any one individual.

If Isolde hadn't covered up her son being a mage, then sent for an unsuitable tutor.
If Jowan hadn't been toting those blood magic books around, or done Loghain's bidding.
If Loghain hadn't had Eamon poisoned, and Connor hadn't tried to save him by dealing with a demon.