969 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

bleetman wrote...

They really ought to have had Loghain do it. Awkward retcon speeches be damned, his booming voice would be far more inspiring.

Agreed.  Alistair or Loghain for outdoors voice, Anora for indoors. 

It ought to be possible to mod this, I would think?  Loghain's "Our land has been threatened before" could be adapted, maybe?

[naledgeborn]

I fail to see how Anora wanting to keep the power she already has as being worse than Eamon wanting to depose her and put a bastard (no matter how likable or charismatic he is) on the throne to get his own fist full of dollars.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

Um . . .  I have to say that Loghain threw himself under the bus.  The chain of events starting at Ostagar became more and more distasteful and tyranical.

Sure.  And if all that is true, she should support the Warden unconditionally, as she also promises to do if you question her request to rescue her out of Howe's estate.  But she doesn't do so if her own political ambitions are at stake.  Hence, she is just as big a political animal as Eamon.  I would say moreso

I can think of no queen/ruler who'd happily be supplanted and support those who want to replace her with an untrained, inexperienced boy who doesn't even want to be king. Neither can I think of a daughter who'll happily support those who tell her not only the above but that they also plan to kill her father.

[Addai]

naledgeborn wrote...

I fail to see how Anora wanting to keep the power she already has as being worse than Eamon wanting to depose her and put a bastard (no matter how likable or charismatic he is) on the throne to get his own fist full of dollars.

She doesn't have any power or you wouldn't need the LM to confer it on her.  She was only queen consort, not reigning monarch.  Wanting to become ruling monarch (as she insists on doing even if she marries Alistair or the Warden) is no different than Eamon wanting to perpetuate Theirin rule.  He doesn't even insist on remaining if there is a Warden chancellor.  I don't dispute that he wants influence, but he has good reasons.  The country went to civil war under Anora's watch, for one thing; the Guerrins are a powerful family in Ferelden and have historically played the role of kingmaker; and without a Theirin on the throne, there will be a free-for-all for the succession.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 12:11 .

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

I fail to see how Anora wanting to keep the power she already has as being worse than Eamon wanting to depose her and put a bastard (no matter how likable or charismatic he is) on the throne to get his own fist full of dollars.

She doesn't have any power or you wouldn't need the LM to confer it on her. 

Nobody disputes her as queen or her power as queen. What is under dispute is her father's regency. Hence, when the Warden is asked to choose, she is still "Queen Anora" and not just Anora. Maybe I'm reading too much into it though.

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

I can think of no queen/ruler who'd happily be supplanted and support those who want to replace her with an untrained, inexperienced boy who doesn't even want to be king. Neither can I think of a daughter who'll happily support those who tell her not only the above but that they also plan to kill her father.

She will turn on you even if you are noncommittal to her, for instance if you never talk to her at Eamon's.  And let's not get into her supposed concern for Loghain- that flies out the window quickly enough, too, if it means she gets the throne.  Though granted, if you pledge to support her but threaten Loghain's life, she will still turn on the Warden in the LM.

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

Nobody disputes her as queen or her power as queen. What is under dispute is her father's regency. Hence, when the Warden is asked to choose, she is still "Queen Anora" and not just Anora. Maybe I'm reading too much into it though.

The main subject of the LM is Loghain's regency, but Anora is not accepted as monarch until the LM confers it on her.  Otherwise there would be no point in bringing a bid for Alistair.

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I can think of no queen/ruler who'd happily be supplanted and support those who want to replace her with an untrained, inexperienced boy who doesn't even want to be king. Neither can I think of a daughter who'll happily support those who tell her not only the above but that they also plan to kill her father.

She will turn on you even if you are noncommittal to her, for instance if you never talk to her at Eamon's.  And let's not get into her supposed concern for Loghain- that flies out the window quickly enough, too, if it means she gets the throne.  Though granted, if you pledge to support her but threaten Loghain's life, she will still turn on the Warden in the LM.

Of course she will if she doesn't know what to expect. Supposed? If you say you'll support her but also that you plan on killing her father, she will not support you. There is a line she will not cross. Her father's life is that line. Her most emotional moment is after you decide to kill him. And if she rules alone after his execution...you've read the slides. Nothing supposed there.

[naledgeborn]

The Fereldan monarchy is built from the ground up. In the LM after Ostagar no one other Bann "Backbone" Teagan disputes Anora's rule and Loghain's Regency. If anything is to blame for the civil war it's Loghain's somewhat justifiable fanaticism against Orlais and the Bann's complacency. If Alistair wasn't around Fereldan's wheels would keep turning. A second LM was called because of Eamon's insisting "hey look over here I pulled Maric's bastard outta my ass and I'm going to be his puppetmaster". And you talk of a succession war as if it wasn't inevitable no matter the outcome of the LM. At least with a Warden king the throne can pass on to the Cousland's with little protest.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 29 novembre 2010 - 12:23 .

[Sarah1281]

And you talk of a succession war as if it wasn't inevitable no matter the outcome of the LM. At least with a Warden king the throne can pass on to the Cousland's with little protest.

Warden Prince-Consort, you mean? A succession crisis is hardly mandatory no matter what you do at the Landsmeet. I think it's likely that none of hte five possibilities (Anora solo, Anora + HNM, Anora + Alistair, Alistair + HNF, or Alistair solo) will produce an heir if only for sequels' sake. That said, any and all of them can just decide that Teagan's children or Fergus' children will be king next and appoint them as the heir.

[Addai]

naledgeborn wrote...

The Fereldan monarchy is built from the ground up. In the LM after Ostagar no one other Bann "Backbone" Teagan disputes Anora's rule and Loghain's Regency. If anything is to blame for the civil war it's Loghain's somewhat justifiable fanaticism against Orlais and the Bann's complacency. If Alistair wasn't around Fereldan's wheels would keep turning. A second LM was called because of Eamon's insisting "hey look over here I pulled Maric's bastard outta my ass and I'm going to be his puppetmaster". And you talk of a succession war as if it wasn't inevitable no matter the outcome of the LM. At least with a Warden king the throne can pass on to the Cousland's with little protest.

Yes, the game writers have all but said that there will be no heir no matter who you choose, and hence there will be a succession war.  Even Anora has to appropriate the Theirin name in order to keep her throne, as she and Loghain both indicate in their LM speeches.  The meeting at which Teagan speaks up is no true LM, or you woluld have had a vote, and Anora would not have needed a regent.

Regardless, the point is when it comes to political, conniving and self-centered, you really can't beat Anora.  Both she and Eamon are looking out for the interests of the country but for themselves as well, and both are single-minded in their goals.  So it's rather interesting those are the things you choose to criticize Eamon for, that's all.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 03:02 .

[sylvanaerie]

Hanz54321 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

The Fereldan monarchy is built from the ground up. In the LM after Ostagar no one other Bann "Backbone" Teagan disputes Anora's rule and Loghain's Regency. If anything is to blame for the civil war it's Loghain's somewhat justifiable fanaticism against Orlais and the Bann's complacency. If Alistair wasn't around Fereldan's wheels would keep turning. A second LM was called because of Eamon's insisting "hey look over here I pulled Maric's bastard outta my ass and I'm going to be his puppetmaster". And you talk of a succession war as if it wasn't inevitable no matter the outcome of the LM. At least with a Warden king the throne can pass on to the Cousland's with little protest.

This is good stuff, but not likely.  If Alistair wasn't around then the civil war would've continued - for it was Alistair who directed the warden to Eamon for support - the Warden who cured Eamon of Loghain's poison - Eamon who then had the military power to give Loghain pause and allow a Landsmeet.  Prior to Redcliffe becoming stable Loghain wasn't giving anyone a Landsmeet.  Instead Loghain was just trying to "bring the nobility in to line" by crushing them with military superiority.

No, had Alistair not been around then Eamon would've lied motionless while Redcliffe was destroyed by his demonic son.  Loghain would've crushed the Bannorn, leaving Fereldan with half an army.  Orlais would've rallied with Antiva and Tevinter to defend its borders, but those nations would've done so while Fereldan fell to the Blight.

A Cousland Origin would not change this at all as Rendon Howe had Bryce branded a traitor and was Loghain's right hand.  If young Cousland called for a Landsmeet he would be escorted to the nearest guillotine - probably without much notice from the nation as it would bedone quickly and without fanfare.

In short, Fereldan's wheels would not have kept on turning.  They would've grinded to a halt.

Agreed, and additionally, the game is geared so there really isn't supposed to BE an heir following the PC (or Alistair's rule).  Regardless of WHO rules, Fergus' child will still be the most logical candidate to ascend the throne but even that isn't a given I suppose as there can be those who dispute the claims.  Or that Fergus even HAS another child.
PC is no more likely than Alistair to produce an heir (Assuming Al marries random Bann instead of FemCousland) and perhaps even less likely considering the block of ice he is married to.  Anora has not produced an heir in the 5 years she was married to Cailan and it has not been said WHO in that relationship was infertile (if either of them are, for all we know she used whatever contraceptives are available to Ferelden women).  My theory on that was she simply didn't engage in sex that often with Cailan.  But it IS scientific fact that the older a woman gets, the less her chances of successful conception and gestation are.  And Anora is approaching 30 by the time the game ends.  Alistair's bann wife would most likely be a good decade younger than Anora and thus have many more 'child bearing' years to her credit.
But again, I feel the game is gearing us toward "no heir to take the throne" when King Cousland/King Alistair steps down from the throne for their Calling.  So neither solution is any better on that front from the way things look.

[Addai]

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I can think of no queen/ruler who'd happily be supplanted and support those who want to replace her with an untrained, inexperienced boy who doesn't even want to be king. Neither can I think of a daughter who'll happily support those who tell her not only the above but that they also plan to kill her father.

She will turn on you even if you are noncommittal to her, for instance if you never talk to her at Eamon's.  And let's not get into her supposed concern for Loghain- that flies out the window quickly enough, too, if it means she gets the throne.  Though granted, if you pledge to support her but threaten Loghain's life, she will still turn on the Warden in the LM.

Of course she will if she doesn't know what to expect. Supposed? If you say you'll support her but also that you plan on killing her father, she will not support you. There is a line she will not cross. Her father's life is that line. Her most emotional moment is after you decide to kill him. And if she rules alone after his execution...you've read the slides. Nothing supposed there.

What did she really think was going to happen when she denounces her father in front of the Landsmeet?

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 03:05 .

[DebatableBubble]

 Uhhh....  Why all the hate for Eamon? 

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

falloutseriesfan wrote...

 Uhhh....  Why all the hate for Eamon? 

Because Eamon planning to help Alistair become a good and strong king automatically means he's is a power-grabbing puppetmaster.

Or something.

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

What did she really think was going to happen when she denounces her father in front of the Landsmeet?

That the PC was going to give Loghain a slap on the wrist going "bad Loghain!" before sending him on his way apparently. :innocent:

[Addai]

naledgeborn wrote...

He's an opportunistic b**tch. No way around it. He tries to ride a whiny bastard's (no offense Alistarian's) coattails into power. On my first King-consort play through I did everything in the Landsmeet against instinct and had unchanged Alistair execute Gen. Loghain. Even after I saved his sorry ass village and made sure each one of his incompetent militia survived, stopped the abomination of his son from reigning terror on his lands, and quested for a mythical artifact which involved slaughtering a cabal of cultists and slaying a High Dragon, the ungrateful bastard was too proud to show up at my wife-to-be's coronation, who was already queen to begin with. I'll tell you, if Dragon Age Origins has a character that should be despised it's him. All the subtlety in the world can't hide this.

(husband)

I get where your coming from, athough I'm much less vehement about the man.   My interpretation of Eamon is that he is a man that lives with a certain amount of denial, much like many other major NPCs of the game.   He wants to be traditional "good guy", story book noble, but he also has his own self centered tendencies that manifest themselves.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 06:59 .

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

Political machinations......? Really? My only Grey Warden ally and heir to the throne whines half of the game about not wanting to be king. What's the next best thing... widow of the last king and son of the second most powerful man in Fereldan? Hardly call that a machination. More like manifest destiny than anything....

A destiny for which she throws her own father under the bus in the Landsmeet.  Only if it means she'll get her throne, of course, otherwise he's a great guy, hero of the people etc. and the Warden is the enemy.  Eamon's got nothing on Anora.

Um . . .  I have to say that Loghain threw himself under the bus.  The chain of events starting at Ostagar became more and more distasteful and tyranical.  Follow Anora during the cutscenes.  At the first Landsmeet after Ostagar she has full faith in her father.  But by the time Arl Howe is telling Loghain the Bannorn wants him to step down Anora tells Daddy (summary), "Enough is enough.  Cailan was going to ask Orlais for help and it was a good plan."  Of course Loghain goes banjo-kazooey at which point she asks him if he killed Cailan.  When Loghain gives her his evasive (honest but evasive) "Cailan's death was his own doing" that is the final straw.

She prefers you not execute her father - that is very clear.

In Summary - Anora did not throw her dad under the bus IMO.  She eventually saw that he had lost his grip on the situation and knew she had to step in to save the country.

Of course as I'm typing this it occurs to me that if you tell Anora that you plan to put Alistair on the throne then she throws the Warden under the bus.  So . . . eh . . . maybe I'm FoS.

(husband)


I'm pretty sure my wife is talking about her pushing the angle that Loghain kidnapped her and intended to execute her.   She does play a "bait and switch" with her father using that to gain sympathy then pulling a 180 heal turn later.   If she really did believe these things it would be difficult to make such an abrupt switch because of "Cognitive Dissonance".   This is essentially a tell that she is spinning the story, trying to manipulate etc.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 11:38 .

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

I can think of no queen/ruler who'd happily be supplanted and support those who want to replace her with an untrained, inexperienced boy who doesn't even want to be king. Neither can I think of a daughter who'll happily support those who tell her not only the above but that they also plan to kill her father.

She will turn on you even if you are noncommittal to her, for instance if you never talk to her at Eamon's.  And let's not get into her supposed concern for Loghain- that flies out the window quickly enough, too, if it means she gets the throne.  Though granted, if you pledge to support her but threaten Loghain's life, she will still turn on the Warden in the LM.

Of course she will if she doesn't know what to expect. Supposed? If you say you'll support her but also that you plan on killing her father, she will not support you. There is a line she will not cross. Her father's life is that line. Her most emotional moment is after you decide to kill him. And if she rules alone after his execution...you've read the slides. Nothing supposed there.

What did she really think was going to happen when she denounces her father in front of the Landsmeet?

Maybe that, especially if you talked to her before, you'd keep your end of the bargain and spare her father. It's not such a wide logical leap. But many even promise to support her, let her keep her end of the bargain...only not just to kill her father but to betray her. I've always been honest with Anora. Especially since many harp on her "turning" on you, what justice is there in turning on her so completely?

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

What did she really think was going to happen when she denounces her father in front of the Landsmeet?

That the PC was going to give Loghain a slap on the wrist going "bad Loghain!" before sending him on his way apparently. :innocent:

Maybe extremes such as splattering her with his blood and the...pardon me....idiotic suggestion up there.....are both not not the way to go?:innocent:

Modifié par Persephone, 29 novembre 2010 - 07:24 .

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

What did she really think was going to happen when she denounces her father in front of the Landsmeet?

That the PC was going to give Loghain a slap on the wrist going "bad Loghain!" before sending him on his way apparently. :innocent:

Maybe extremes such as splattering with her blood and the...pardon me....idiotic suggestion up there.....are both not not the way to go?:innocent:

...You obviously can't take a joke.

But the splattering blood was a parting gift. A way of telling her that she's next.

Though honestly tis her fault. She's the one who had to stand right there. She should be happy it didn't go in her mouth. :innocent:

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 novembre 2010 - 07:26 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

What did she really think was going to happen when she denounces her father in front of the Landsmeet?

That the PC was going to give Loghain a slap on the wrist going "bad Loghain!" before sending him on his way apparently. :innocent:

Maybe extremes such as splattering with her blood and the...pardon me....idiotic suggestion up there.....are both not not the way to go?:innocent:

...You obviously can't take a joke.

But the splattering blood was a parting gift. A way of telling her that she's next.

Though honestly tis her fault. She's the one who had to stand right there. She should be happy it didn't go in her mouth. :innocent:

A joke in poor taste where I stand, as I know what it's like to watch a parent die. As for the rest...pardon me while I recoil in disgust.<_<

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

A joke in poor taste where I stand, as I know what it's like to watch a parent die. As for the rest...pardon me while I recoil in disgust.<_<

Disgust? I don't see anything disgusting myself. We don't even see his head go off. We just see someone swing then a burst of blood all over Anora. Frankly I would have rather a public execution (which Alistair probably got) just visible. But time was a wasting and they had to rush. So as the Queen goes "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!"

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 novembre 2010 - 07:34 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

A joke in poor taste where I stand, as I know what it's like to watch a parent die. As for the rest...pardon me while I recoil in disgust.<_<

Disgust? I don't see anything disgusting myself. We don't even see his head go off. We just see someone swing then a burst of blood all over Anora. Frankly I would have rather a public execution (which Alistair probably got) just visible. But time was a wasting and they had to rush. So as the Queen goes "OFF WITH HIS HEAD!"

Disgust at such callous glee, if you need it spelled out. The gore usually doesn't concern me all that much.