969 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
 Eamon's ulcers developing as a result of Alistair repeatedly doing the opposite of what Eamon thinks best.

There is a fine line between being independent and between doing the opposite only out of spite or defiance.

That's why I don't trust hardened Alisair that much either (though he is better than unhardened). I see more defiance and self-confidence in him. I don't see maturity accompanying it. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 janvier 2011 - 10:18 .

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Reika wrote...

Oh, I'm sure he'll be sending hatemail to Alistair also depending on how things go. And if its to a hardened Alistair, Eamon may be in for a rude surprise.

Possibly. Though like I said, I tend to think Eamon is more interested in Alistair as potential puppet, vs Alistair as last Therin. I'm sure he does care about the bloodline, but more important to him is being able to run the country, or at least influence it, through a properly pliable king.

I don't see Eamon as an ambitious type, though.  His attempts to influence Cailan were pretty mild, all things considered.  And if he really had crown ambitions, he would not have married an Orlesian.

Eamon deserves a chance to influence the throne more than the Warden does, and more than Anora too, for that matter.  He's from a family that long has been a fixture in Fereldan politics and which was an anchor in winning Fereldan independence.  He swung the balance against Loghain's regency.  The Warden is his fixer, but without Eamon it would never have worked.

[Reika]

I think it also depends on the Warden, Addai. The HNO stands a good chance of being as well entrenched once they've won the Landsmeet, they can probably start re-establishing old family ties. And I'm sure the DNO has a good chance at dealing with Ferelden politics considering how they were raised in Orz. Depends on if the DNO sticks around or not.

[DPSSOC]

Gabey5 wrote...

You need him. You are nothing. 2 marked wardens running around ferelden. He is very popular and gives you legitimacy and a forum to confront logain. Your whining about saving his life??? YOU NEED HIM. that is all

You don't really need him specifically though.  Teagan would do just as well, or any noble with an axe to grind with Loghain.  You may recall that Eamon's only action is to call the Landsmeet and any Bann or Arl could have done that.  Turning the Landsmeet on Loghain; me.  Dropping Loghain like a bad habit; me.  Once Eamon sent out the call for a Landsmeet you could have murdered him, claimed he had fallen ill, and nothing would have changed.

[Addai]

Reika wrote...

I think it also depends on the Warden, Addai. The HNO stands a good chance of being as well entrenched once they've won the Landsmeet, they can probably start re-establishing old family ties. And I'm sure the DNO has a good chance at dealing with Ferelden politics considering how they were raised in Orz. Depends on if the DNO sticks around or not.

That's not how the game presents it, and IMO isn't very realistic.  Eamon is one of the most powerful figures in Fereldan politics.  Even if the Couslands were still in their old place of power, you're still just the youngest of the family, and a Warden which puts your ability to inherit in question.  A dwarf having sway over Fereldan nobles??  They don't even fully accept Anora, sometimes still referring to her as a commoner.

The Warden brings muscle, but you need more than muscle to sway the Landsmeet.  Or even to call a Landsmeet in the first place.

Edit:  Reading back, I think we are talking about two different things- I'm talking about needing Eamon to call the LM, I think you are talking about who is best suited as chancellor?

Modifié par Addai67, 02 janvier 2011 - 11:23 .

[Addai]

DPSSOC wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

You need him. You are nothing. 2 marked wardens running around ferelden. He is very popular and gives you legitimacy and a forum to confront logain. Your whining about saving his life??? YOU NEED HIM. that is all

You don't really need him specifically though.  Teagan would do just as well, or any noble with an axe to grind with Loghain.  You may recall that Eamon's only action is to call the Landsmeet and any Bann or Arl could have done that.  Turning the Landsmeet on Loghain; me.  Dropping Loghain like a bad habit; me.  Once Eamon sent out the call for a Landsmeet you could have murdered him, claimed he had fallen ill, and nothing would have changed.

With Bryce gone there is no one left in Ferelden with the political clout to challenge Loghain except Eamon.  Teagan doesn't command the same respect, and prefers to stay out of politics.  His statement "if Eamon were here..." is telling in that regard.

And really, murder Eamon and still hold the Landsmeet?    Eamon is the one calling the LM.  Your punk Warden has no political authority, even as a Cousland, whose family has been discredited as traitors.

Just recall that without Anora turning on her father, it is very difficult to win over the LM even with Eamon's support.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
Just recall that without Anora turning on her father, it is very difficult to win over the LM even with Eamon's support.

A Warden, especially an HN, forming an alliance with Anora makes Eamon, in the Landsmeet itself, useless.

He is only useful at calling the Landsmeet itself. Other than that, he does nothing. The Warden wins it, either by persuasion or force.

[Addai]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Just recall that without Anora turning on her father, it is very difficult to win over the LM even with Eamon's support.

A Warden, especially an HN, forming an alliance with Anora makes Eamon, in the Landsmeet itself, useless.

He is only useful at calling the Landsmeet itself. Other than that, he does nothing. The Warden wins it, either by persuasion or force.

That's like saying you would have won a sports tournament if only you could have gotten a place in the roster.  You need Eamon to even get a foot in the door.  Anora is using the Warden to move Eamon, not the other way around ("it is to you that Eamon listens").

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...
That's like saying you would have won a sports tournament if only you could have gotten a place in the roster.  You need Eamon to even get a foot in the door.  Anora is using the Warden to move Eamon, not the other way around ("it is to you that Eamon listens").

No, since it's the Warden who decides that Anora is Queen and we don't even tell Eamon about our decision. We don't move him at all, we decide and he abides by it because he has no other choice.

And Eamon would not have been able to call a Landsmeet without our blessing and without the army we gathered (hence why he waits till you gather them all and he waits for your ok). Both needed each other just as much to call the Landsmeet. In the Landsmeet itself, the Warden is in complete control and can do the exact opposite of what Eamon wants.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 janvier 2011 - 11:30 .

[Addai]

The Warden is a loaded gun, pointed at the opposition saying "you really want this person as ruler, don't you"? Your influence is your armies. Let's not glamorize it. Of course, might does move politics. Not saying Eamon doesn't need the Warden, too, but to maintain that you could have called the LM with Bann So-and-So is disingenuous. Or that Eamon doesn't have an important role in Fereldan's political landscape.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Addai67 wrote...

The Warden is a loaded gun, pointed at the opposition saying "you really want this person as ruler, don't you"? Your
influence is your armies. Let's not glamorize it. Of course, might does move politics.

Of course, and it's the army that puts the Warden in a position of control. Loghain is dead right in saying that it's either him or you Ferelden will follow. Why? Because it's you and him who have armies.
Military might inevitably provides political power.

Addai67 wrote...
Not saying Eamon doesn't need the Warden, too, but to maintain that you could have called the LM with Bann So-and-So is disingenuous. Or that Eamon doesn't have an important role in Fereldan's political landscape.

No one said he doesn't have importance. But the Warden does not need him more than Eamon needs the Warden himself. And at the end, it's Warden's arguments, not Eamon's, who win the Landsmeet (or his / her sword) and it's the Warden who can completely outmaneuver him.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 02 janvier 2011 - 11:40 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There is a fine line between being independent and between doing the opposite only out of spite or defiance.

That's not what I was refering to.

That's why I don't trust hardened Alisair that much either (though he is better than unhardened). I see more defiance and self-confidence in him. I don't see maturity accompanying it. 

Defiance and self confidence is exactly what he needs if he's going to deal with Eamon. Maturity comes with age and experience. And from what I've seen of hardened Alistair, I do not think it will be a problem developing. Nor do I think hardened Alistair will blow everything off Eamon suggests for the hell of it. I do see hardened Alistair blowing off most of what Eamon says because he has the self confidence to finally tell him off when he disagree, instead of bowing to pressure. And given what I see of in game, Eamon's suggestions are probably going to end up more blow-off worthy than normal.

@Addai: I think Eamon's ambitions for power involve pulling the strings, not going for a direct bid on the thone. In fact, in alot of cases, depending on the ruler and the nature of the culture, such a position could be preferrable. I don't think his attempts to convince Cailan to remarry were half hearted, since he kept at it. Though it's probably unlikely he suggested celene, i think cailan could have came up with that one without help.

[Reika]

@Addai - Yes, I did misunderstand what you were referring to. I didn't realize you meant you needed Eamon to call the LM. Which unfortunately you do.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Defiance and self confidence is exactly what he needs if he's going to deal with Eamon.

Maybe, but it's not enough to make him a good and really independent king. Maturity doesn't need to come with age except if we are talking about teenagers (some of which can be more mature than adults btw).

What I have seen, including his immaturity vis a vis Loghain and vis a vis Redcliffe even when hardened, does not inspire him to put much confidence in a hardened Alistair. But I could be wrong.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Maybe, but it's not enough to make him a good and really independent king. Maturity doesn't need to come with age except if we are talking about teenagers (some of which can be more mature than adults btw).

What I have seen, including his immaturity vis a vis Loghain and vis a vis Redcliffe even when hardened, does not inspire him to put much confidence in a hardened Alistair. But I could be wrong.

I'm not really refering to whether or not he makes an excellent ruler or not, that's subjective (I don't, even if I like him personally much better than Anora or Eamon).

What I was saying is that, hardened, Alistair would probably ditch alot of Eamon's advice. Not out of petulance, or just to defy Eamon, but because he is confident enough in his own ability to come up with what he thinks are better ideas. Whether or not those ideas are any good, or Alistair makes a good king because of it, isn't the point I was getting at. Only that Alistair would be making his own calls, confident in his judgement, not just because he wants to be disagreeable.

As far as his success as king, I think hardened he could do a respectable job. I doubt he'd make the progress or reforms that Anora would, or start the country down the path of a better, brighter long term future, but I think he could at least hold it together and keep it reasonably stable during his reign. I certainly do not think he would be a disaster or drag the country backwards. And her certainly shows more brains than his brother did.

[KyleTheArtist]

The whole " Let's slap Alistair on the throne because he's blood" thing did not appeal to me the second I heard it. Reading through the thread makes me not like it more. My current mage, was originally a Cousland, so naturally, i should be happy that get to marry Alistair. It's a sweet ending and all, but to me, it's just to perfect and fairy tale-ish. When my Cousland save got corrupted, I restarted the same character but as a mage, so that option doesn't even appear. (it does anyways, but eh)



Point being. I don't necessarily hate Eamon, but I found his eagerness to make Alistair king disturbing and tad annoying. He keeps pushing it in your face, and I went for Anora on that playthrough, because I think, she's doing fine as a Queen anyways. Best option in my eyes.

[Sarah1281]

Even a hardened Alistair defers to Anora's judgement or the judgement of his chancellor PC a lot so why wouldn't he also defer to Chancellor Eamon's judgement?

[KyleTheArtist]

When I talked to hardened Alistair he seemed not to be very eager to become king. Although I did lose 10 point with him when I said that I'm going to support Anora. :/

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KyleTheArtist wrote...

When I talked to hardened Alistair he seemed not to be very eager to become king. Although I did lose 10 point with him when I said that I'm going to support Anora. :/

Yeah, he isn't, even hardened. After the Landsmeet, and you haven't made him king, even hardened you, he's thanking you for letting him dodge the bullet. However, hardened, he is more willing to accept it, work at it, and start doing things his own way. It's one major reason I don't like making him king.

@Sarah: With Anora, it's different. Anora is his spouse, his queen, and one half of a ruling team. Fighting with her or overiding her judgement would not be a good thing to do, since it would weaken the ruling team's ability to effectively rule. And, of course, the fact Anora has already been ruling in the first place.

With eamon, the most he will be is an underling, an advisor, but not an equal or an actual ruler like Anora would be, and thus, would be safer to brush off.

[Thiefy]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

CalJones wrote...

He's not that
fine with the marriage to Anora - if you talk to him back at Castle
Redcliffe (post-Landsmeet) he'll say it wasn't his first choice. I'm not
sure what he says to a Cousland since I've never done the Princess
CousCous thing, but if he knew about the Warden sterility, I don't think
he'd be happy at all.

He doesn't openly discourage it
though when he has the chance and when it would be the most fortuios for
him. Infact he actually says that it would give Alistair more
credibility and support.

He actually doesn't say anything if you
go the princess route either, but then again, you kind of just surprise
everyone with that announcement at the Landsmeet.

He
does say afterwards in a very disapproving tone that the marriage to
Anora would not have been his first choice (and given that he thinks
she's barren, that's hardly surprising) but he 'supposes' he should
thank you. As for the second, Alistair will need to marry SOMEBODY to
produce an heir and why not someone that appears to be on his
side? Besides, since the Landsmeet only approved you+Alistair, he
doesn't know if trying to get you out of the picture will lead to the
Landsmeet rejecting solo Alistair.

I don't think he
likes it but I don't believe it's because of his "quest for power" so to
speak. I just think he would find it distasteful for her to remarry so
soon, and to her dead husband's little brother. That and because Eamon
suspects she is barren would give him more reason to speak up against
the marriage.

[Wereparrot]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

KyleTheArtist wrote...

When I talked to hardened Alistair he seemed not to be very eager to become king. Although I did lose 10 point with him when I said that I'm going to support Anora. :/

With eamon, the most he will be is an underling, an advisor, but not an equal or an actual ruler like Anora would be, and thus, would be safer to brush off.

Or he would be a more subtle type of Loghain, ruling through his puppet king. I say this because of his jumping to conclusions at the Landsmeet in his eagerness to make Alistair king despite nothing previously being brought up concerning the succession to the throne, or retention thereof in Anora's case; and his his blatant disrespect of the warden (especially HNO), by which I refer to his asking the warden for his/her opinion, despite having already made up his mind and arrogantly pursuing his own course of action. I even told him I preferred Anora and told him in as near-enough-terms what I think of Alistair's claim and he still brushes it aside like my opinion doesn't matter. As HN his refusal to acknowledge me as the rightful Teryn of Highever (Fergus notwithstanding) despite other nobles in the tavern and Wynne doing so, really grates me. More the fool you, Eamon!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wereparrot wrote...


Or he would be a more subtle type of Loghain, ruling through his puppet king. I say this because of his jumping to conclusions at the Landsmeet in his eagerness to make Alistair king despite nothing previously being brought up concerning the succession to the throne, or retention thereof in Anora's case; and his his blatant disrespect of the warden (especially HNO), by which I refer to his asking the warden for his/her opinion, despite having already made up his mind and arrogantly pursuing his own course of action. I even told him I preferred Anora and told him in as near-enough-terms what I think of Alistair's claim and he still brushes it aside like my opinion doesn't matter. As HN his refusal to acknowledge me as the rightful Teryn of Highever (Fergus notwithstanding) despite other nobles in the tavern and Wynne doing so, really grates me. More the fool you, Eamon!

With an unhardened Alistair, he would probably have success without effort. hardened Alistair, however, might prose a problem even for a puppetmaster.

Eamon is a total ass, no matter what origin you play.

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
 Eamon's ulcers developing as a result of Alistair repeatedly doing the opposite of what Eamon thinks best.

There is a fine line between being independent and between doing the opposite only out of spite or defiance.

That's why I don't trust hardened Alisair that much either (though he is better than unhardened). I see more defiance and self-confidence in him. I don't see maturity accompanying it. 

I got the impression from the epilogue that a hardened Alistair would handle his authority responsibly. He studys governance, and trusts Anora's judgement (if she's his Queen). He places the Elder of the Alienage to be at the royal court, which is important if you care about the welfare and future of the elves. Alistair and Anora also share a number of goals as rulers: both hand over the Hinterlands to the Dalish and want to avoid the tragedy of the Dales, they both want to see mages improve their lot (and ask Wynne to be an advisor to the court), and they both value the Grey Wardens. If Alistair and Anora are married, I see no reason why her ambitions to build a university wouldn't happen, especially since the money obviously didn't go into the alienage (via WH) and there's no reason Alistair would reject such a goal.

Sarah1281 wrote...

....And what does Eamon owe you?

Saving him was more or less a self serving act. YOU needed his help and YOU did what you had to to get his help.

He owes you the life of his wife and/or son. If you do the Tower, he especially owes you.

By the way, does anyone know why there are lines that are supposed to fire if both Isolde AND Connor are dead? Obviously, the game doesn't make this possible but how would that be possible? Would this be if you used the Jowan's ritual and yet failed to defeat the demon and so had to cut Connor down? If you take too long to bring back the Circle and Connor kills him mother and goes on a rampage?

That's interesting. What does Eamon say?

[Sarah1281]

and his his blatant disrespect of the warden (especially HNO), by which I refer to his asking the warden for his/her opinion, despite having already made up his mind and arrogantly pursuing his own course of action. I even told him I preferred Anora and told him in as near-enough-terms what I think of Alistair's claim and he still brushes it aside like my opinion doesn't matter. As HN his refusal to acknowledge me as the rightful Teryn of Highever (Fergus notwithstanding) despite other nobles in the tavern and Wynne doing so, really grates me. More the fool you, Eamon!

Eamon was probably more seeing if you agreed with him than actually asking for your advice and I don't think that's particularly arrogant of him. He's called an entire Landsmeet at this point in order to put Alistair on the throne. Why should he let you change his mind now? And what do you mean by 'refusing to acknowledge'? You mean that it never comes up? Why would it? What's he supposed to do, swear fealty then and there?