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[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

and his his blatant disrespect of the warden (especially HNO), by which I refer to his asking the warden for his/her opinion, despite having already made up his mind and arrogantly pursuing his own course of action. I even told him I preferred Anora and told him in as near-enough-terms what I think of Alistair's claim and he still brushes it aside like my opinion doesn't matter. As HN his refusal to acknowledge me as the rightful Teryn of Highever (Fergus notwithstanding) despite other nobles in the tavern and Wynne doing so, really grates me. More the fool you, Eamon!

Eamon was probably more seeing if you agreed with him than actually asking for your advice and I don't think that's particularly arrogant of him. He's called an entire Landsmeet at this point in order to put Alistair on the throne. Why should he let you change his mind now? And what do you mean by 'refusing to acknowledge'? You mean that it never comes up? Why would it? What's he supposed to do, swear fealty then and there?

I said he asks for my opinion, not my advice, and then doesn't even recognize that I've given it and is contrary to his, and still thinks I will go along with his idea.  He could take advice from my opinion actually. My other point is that he tries to impose Alistair on the Landsmeet. The Landsmeet is to ascertain Loghain's treason; nothing more.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 11 janvier 2011 - 03:41 .

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...
Or he would be a more subtle type of Loghain, ruling through his puppet king. I say this because of his jumping to conclusions at the Landsmeet in his eagerness to make Alistair king despite nothing previously being brought up concerning the succession to the throne, or retention thereof in Anora's case; and his his blatant disrespect of the warden (especially HNO), by which I refer to his asking the warden for his/her opinion, despite having already made up his mind and arrogantly pursuing his own course of action. I even told him I preferred Anora and told him in as near-enough-terms what I think of Alistair's claim and he still brushes it aside like my opinion doesn't matter. As HN his refusal to acknowledge me as the rightful Teryn of Highever (Fergus notwithstanding) despite other nobles in the tavern and Wynne doing so, really grates me. More the fool you, Eamon!

He never addresses your status as heir of Highever.  The only time it's brought up is if you tell him you can't just let the murder of your family slide and he says he doesn't expect you to.  Do you want him to flatter you?  That's Anora's strategy.  I prefer Eamon address the important matter of Loghain, because until that's done nothing else is going to be settled anyway.

As for him ignoring your advice, what do you expect?  He's allowed to disagree with you, I assume?  Or do you take the view of the Warden that everyone should lick your boots and fall in line?

Modifié par Addai67, 11 janvier 2011 - 03:54 .

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

I said he asks for my opinion, not my advice, and then doesn't even recognize that I've given it and is contrary to his, and still thinks I will go along with his idea.  He could take advice from my opinion actually. My other point is that he tries to impose Alistair on the Landsmeet. The Landsmeet is to ascertain Loghain's treason; nothing more.

Who says?  Alistair is a Theirin and thus has a claim to the throne based on bloodline even if it's not ironclad.  As a titled lord, Eamon has every right to bring up such an important matter before the Landsmeet.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 janvier 2011 - 03:56 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Actually the smart thing for Eamon to do is put the status of Highever and the status of the Cousland as the real Teyrn back into play. To undermine Howe and his legitimacy (his story about the Cousland notwithstanding), and after his death, to have the voice of a Ternir claimant in the Landsmeet.

It isn't a priority, but I don't see why Eamon didn't even bother. Unless he was actually afraid that doing so might somehow jeopardize his bid for Alistair, seeing how the Cousland has an army and a "fine lineage" and some experience (vs none) which might make the others see him / her as an alternative. Perhaps a bit unlikely, but worth pondering on.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 janvier 2011 - 04:00 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I still think that a Cousland Warden should have been able to nominate themselves King/Queen.



Really they do all the foot work and the nobles owe that Cousland a favor for their help. Then they find evidence against Loghain and bring him down.



Alistair and Anora dont really do much during this whole show compared to a Cousland Warden. But then again trying to do that would hamper Bioware from saying that good people dont strive forward like that.

[IanPolaris]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Actually the smart thing for Eamon to do is put the status of Highever and the status of the Cousland as the real Teyrn back into play. To undermine Howe and his legitimacy (his story about the Cousland notwithstanding), and after his death, to have the voice of a Ternir claimant in the Landsmeet.

It isn't a priority, but I don't see why Eamon didn't even bother. Unless he was actually afraid that doing so might somehow jeopardize his bid for Alistair, seeing how the Cousland has an army and a "fine lineage" and some experience (vs none) which might make the others see him / her as an alternative. Perhaps a bit unlikely, but worth pondering on.

Actually I think you hit on exactly the reason he doesn't.  A Cousland Warden also has a claim (abeit shakey) to the throne as well, and Anora is quick to realize it.  The only reason it isn't the strongest claim out there is because of your Grey Warden status which normally precludes you from inheriting (just as being a mage normally precludes you from inheriting).  However by putting forth Alistair, Eamon is subverting this bar and this opening it up for you.

Thus, he tries to do the "two-fer" and get it both ways.  He puts forth Alistair's claim to the throne conveniently forgetting he's a Grey Warden (and a bastard) while "forgetting" to push for your installment of "Acting Teyr/Teryna of Highever" which is your right and due (since he's neglecting the Grey Warden part as well).  This way you don't get a vote in the Landsmeet and thus can't nominate yourself for the crown.

It's a dirty and slimely trick but effective.  Without the ability to nominate yourself for the throne (since you're title was stripped by Logain on Howe's charges of treason), you can't threaten Eamon's plans.....unless you get Anora's help.

-Polaris

P.S.  This makes me sorry that the whole "Unfaithful Cailan" Plotline was dropped.  As I understand it, originally you did have the option of going directly to Denerim after Lothering and trying to recruit Logain and his army rather than Eamon.  Of course that would mean giving up Alistair, but that early in the game it might have been worth it.

[Addai]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I still think that a Cousland Warden should have been able to nominate themselves King/Queen.

Bryce was supported by some nobles because of his status as war hero.  Dairren seems to indicate it was just a sentimental thing.  I think people make too much of Cousland status.

Eamon almost lost his entire arling and almost died himself.  The entire country is in uproar.  What happened to the Couslands is a part of it, but there's no reason to blow it out of proportion.

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

I said he asks for my opinion, not my advice, and then doesn't even recognize that I've given it and is contrary to his, and still thinks I will go along with his idea.  He could take advice from my opinion actually. My other point is that he tries to impose Alistair on the Landsmeet. The Landsmeet is to ascertain Loghain's treason; nothing more.

Who says?  Alistair is a Theirin and thus has a claim to the throne based on bloodline even if it's not ironclad.  As a titled lord, Eamon has every right to bring up such an important matter before the Landsmeet.

I don't recognize Alistair being heir. That's my opinion and I don't appreciate being bullied by Eamon to accept it.

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
Or he would be a more subtle type of Loghain, ruling through his puppet king. I say this because of his jumping to conclusions at the Landsmeet in his eagerness to make Alistair king despite nothing previously being brought up concerning the succession to the throne, or retention thereof in Anora's case; and his his blatant disrespect of the warden (especially HNO), by which I refer to his asking the warden for his/her opinion, despite having already made up his mind and arrogantly pursuing his own course of action. I even told him I preferred Anora and told him in as near-enough-terms what I think of Alistair's claim and he still brushes it aside like my opinion doesn't matter. As HN his refusal to acknowledge me as the rightful Teryn of Highever (Fergus notwithstanding) despite other nobles in the tavern and Wynne doing so, really grates me. More the fool you, Eamon!

He never addresses your status as heir of Highever. 

Yet other lords in the tavern do. Make of that what you will.

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

Yet other lords in the tavern do. Make of that what you will.

Their one line of "hey it's you, tough break kid" is roughly equal to what you get with Eamon, too.

Keep in mind that the game's main quest is not written solely for Cousland Wardens.  It would be nice to have more tailored content, but that's the case with all the origins.

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

I said he asks for my opinion, not my advice, and then doesn't even recognize that I've given it and is contrary to his, and still thinks I will go along with his idea.  He could take advice from my opinion actually. My other point is that he tries to impose Alistair on the Landsmeet. The Landsmeet is to ascertain Loghain's treason; nothing more.

Who says?  Alistair is a Theirin and thus has a claim to the throne based on bloodline even if it's not ironclad.  As a titled lord, Eamon has every right to bring up such an important matter before the Landsmeet.

I don't recognize Alistair being heir. That's my opinion and I don't appreciate being bullied by Eamon to accept it.

You have your time to state your preference as ruler.  Frankly since you have very little political standing and just represent the muscle, the fact that you get to pick the ruler at all is a huge Mary Sue-ism.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 janvier 2011 - 05:13 .

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

I said he asks for my opinion, not my advice, and then doesn't even recognize that I've given it and is contrary to his, and still thinks I will go along with his idea.  He could take advice from my opinion actually. My other point is that he tries to impose Alistair on the Landsmeet. The Landsmeet is to ascertain Loghain's treason; nothing more.

Who says?  Alistair is a Theirin and thus has a claim to the throne based on bloodline even if it's not ironclad.  As a titled lord, Eamon has every right to bring up such an important matter before the Landsmeet.

I don't recognize Alistair being heir. That's my opinion and I don't appreciate being bullied by Eamon to accept it.

You have your time to state your preference as ruler.  Frankly since you have very little political standing and just represent the muscle, the fact that you get to pick the ruler at all is a huge Mary Sue-ism.

Eventually, but I wish Eamon gave consideration to Anora, rather than just dismissing my opinion out of hand, and then still thinking I'm fully on his side.

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...
Eventually, but I wish Eamon gave consideration to Anora, rather than just dismissing my opinion out of hand, and then still thinking I'm fully on his side.

He's considered Anora and rejected her as first choice.  Why should he change his opinion just because you disagree?  You're a punk kid and he was already an arl when Anora and Cailan were born.  I think he's had enough time and experience in Fereldan politics to make up his own mind.

[Comaatil]

I want to stab his wife :L

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wereparrot wrote...
Eventually, but I wish Eamon gave consideration to Anora, rather than just dismissing my opinion out of hand, and then still thinking I'm fully on his side.

Why would he? he couldn't control Anora, or get her to rule as he sees fit, unlike an unhardened Alistair, who he's been priming his whole life to be a pliable puppet. Putting a hardened Alistair on the throne would be a pretty big shock to his system in that regard. But in general, I believe Eamon's prime motivation for pushing Alistair forward was power grab by proxy.

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
Eventually, but I wish Eamon gave consideration to Anora, rather than just dismissing my opinion out of hand, and then still thinking I'm fully on his side.

Why would he? he couldn't control Anora, or get her to rule as he sees fit, unlike an unhardened Alistair, who he's been priming his whole life to be a pliable puppet. Putting a hardened Alistair on the throne would be a pretty big shock to his system in that regard. But in general, I believe Eamon's prime motivation for pushing Alistair forward was power grab by proxy.

I agree with this, but it's really no more egregious than the Warden putting his/her choice of ruler on the throne and then remaining as chancellor or consort.  You want to run things your way, and Eamon wants to make sure that in the next round of kingmaking, Ferelden doesn't end up with another Loghain- Anora- Howe debacle.

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
Eventually, but I wish Eamon gave consideration to Anora, rather than just dismissing my opinion out of hand, and then still thinking I'm fully on his side.

He's considered Anora and rejected her as first choice.  Why should he change his opinion just because you disagree?  You're a punk kid and he was already an arl when Anora and Cailan were born.  I think he's had enough time and experience in Fereldan politics to make up his own mind.

I didn't say he should. I just wish he wouldn't reject it out of hand. I don't remember him giving any satisfactory reason why Anora shouldn't be queen. I wish I could really get that across in-game, but alas...

[Sarah1281]

Wereparrot wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
Eventually, but I wish Eamon gave consideration to Anora, rather than just dismissing my opinion out of hand, and then still thinking I'm fully on his side.

He's considered Anora and rejected her as first choice.  Why should he change his opinion just because you disagree?  You're a punk kid and he was already an arl when Anora and Cailan were born.  I think he's had enough time and experience in Fereldan politics to make up his own mind.

I didn't say he should. I just wish he wouldn't reject it out of hand. I don't remember him giving any satisfactory reason why Anora shouldn't be queen. I wish I could really get that across in-game, but alas...

Anora was just the wife of the King (who admittedly was making all the decisions because Cailan couldn't be bothered) so he doesn't really need a reason to oppose someone who was not the ruling queen from becoming the ruling queen. She was on the throne - technically - for the past year because there was no Landsmeet to determine the successor but it wasn't a legitimate rule.

Additionally, Eamon doesn't seem to like Anora. Eamon puts a lot of stock (maybe too much) in the Theirin bloodline which Anora does not have, Alistair does have, and the rebellion centered around. Eamon also believes that Anora is barren and thus putting her on the throne would mean no heirs. Maybe Eamon also disagreed with her political policies but didn't see the need to get into details about taxes and trade with you.

What you need to remember is that Eamon cannot just drop his plan for Alistair as king. Once at the Landsmeet, he could probably switch sides but since he doesn't want Anora to rule, why would he? Pre-Landsmeet he has to push Alistair's claim as that is the only thing that Loghain can't ignore: Maric's son seeking the throne.

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...
Eventually, but I wish Eamon gave consideration to Anora, rather than just dismissing my opinion out of hand, and then still thinking I'm fully on his side.

He's considered Anora and rejected her as first choice.  Why should he change his opinion just because you disagree?  You're a punk kid and he was already an arl when Anora and Cailan were born.  I think he's had enough time and experience in Fereldan politics to make up his own mind.

I didn't say he should. I just wish he wouldn't reject it out of hand. I don't remember him giving any satisfactory reason why Anora shouldn't be queen. I wish I could really get that across in-game, but alas...

Anora was just the wife of the King (who admittedly was making all the decisions because Cailan couldn't be bothered) so he doesn't really need a reason to oppose someone who was not the ruling queen from becoming the ruling queen. She was on the throne - technically - for the past year because there was no Landsmeet to determine the successor but it wasn't a legitimate rule.

Additionally, Eamon doesn't seem to like Anora. Eamon puts a lot of stock (maybe too much) in the Theirin bloodline which Anora does not have, Alistair does have, and the rebellion centered around. Eamon also believes that Anora is barren and thus putting her on the throne would mean no heirs. Maybe Eamon also disagreed with her political policies but didn't see the need to get into details about taxes and trade with you.

What you need to remember is that Eamon cannot just drop his plan for Alistair as king. Once at the Landsmeet, he could probably switch sides but since he doesn't want Anora to rule, why would he? Pre-Landsmeet he has to push Alistair's claim as that is the only thing that Loghain can't ignore: Maric's son seeking the throne.

The Theirin bloodline has failed as far as I'm concerned since Alistair is not legitimate and the closest relative to the deceased king is his wife, so I recognize neither Alistair's claim or Eamon's arguments. This much is just a matter of opinion.

The rebellion could have centred around Loghain entirely, and not involved Anora. I agree that he doesn't like Anora; but if she could be barren, then so could Alistair, so this argument is a bit flawed. And if Eamon won't go into political details with me then it is his loss because I am forced to decide between a would-be king with as yet no policies or a queen with undisclosed policies which may actually be pivotal in the decision, if they were known.

[Sarah1281]

The Theirin bloodline has failed as far as I'm concerned since Alistair is not legitimate and the closest relative to the deceased king is his wife, so I recognize neither Alistair's claim or Eamon's arguments. This much is just a matter of opinion.

It is, of course, a matter of opinion whether or not Alistair should be considered a Theirin but if Alistair is chosen as king the Landsmeet officially recognizes him as one so, at that point, it's no longer a matter of opinion. If you pick Anora, it isn't an issue. It's not a matter of wanting Alistair since he is a relation to Cailan. No one really cares about Cailan so Anora being married to him (and not actually related) doesn't matter as much. She just uses the fact that she has had experience ruling in Cailan's name to make her a good candidate since there is no clear heir. It's the fact that Alistair is Maric's son and a Theirin that is important in his claim. The bloodline may not mean anything to you but it's important to Eamon and his faction which appears to be a good half of the nobility.

The rebellion could have centred around Loghain entirely, and not involved Anora. I agree that he doesn't like Anora; but if she could be barren, then so could Alistair, so this argument is a bit flawed. And if Eamon won't go into political details with me then it is his loss because I am forced to decide between a would-be king with as yet no policies or a queen with undisclosed policies which may actually be pivotal in the decision, if they were known.

It could not have centered aroudn Loghain entirely. Eamon specifically states that they NEED Alistair to oppose Anora because Loghain is ruling in Anora's name and Alistair is a challenge he cannot and does not ignore.

Alistair might be sterile because of the GW fertility issues but Eamon does not know about those. If you do not count those then Alistair has no more or less chance of being sterile than anyone else. He believes Anora has proven herself barren by not having a child in five years of marriage. Many people think that it was Cailan who was sterile but traditionally the woman was blamed for a lack of a pregnancy and Eamon would have wanted to believe it was Anora's fault because if that was the case then Cailan could have replaced her with someone else and had an heir and if it were Cailan who was sterile then the Theirin bloodline would have come to an end. I know that the bloodline doesn't mean much to you but it is important to many in Ferelden. The Theirins have been the only ruling family that they've EVER had so it's a big part of their national identity.

Just because you disagree with Eamon's arguments doesn't make them invalid.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 11 janvier 2011 - 07:36 .

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The rebellion could have centred around Loghain entirely, and not involved Anora. I agree that he doesn't like Anora; but if she could be barren, then so could Alistair, so this argument is a bit flawed. And if Eamon won't go into political details with me then it is his loss because I am forced to decide between a would-be king with as yet no policies or a queen with undisclosed policies which may actually be pivotal in the decision, if they were known.

It could not have centered aroudn Loghain entirely. Eamon specifically states that they NEED Alistair to oppose Anora because Loghain is ruling in Anora's name and Alistair is a challenge he cannot and does not ignore.

Alistair might be sterile because of the GW fertility issues but Eamon does not know about those. If you do not count those then Alistair has no more or less chance of being sterile than anyone else. He believes Anora has proven herself barren by not having a child in five years of marriage. Many people think that it was Cailan who was sterile but traditionally the woman was blamed for a lack of a pregnancy and Eamon would have wanted to believe it was Anora's fault because if that was the case then Cailan could have replaced her with someone else and had an heir and if it were Cailan who was sterile then the Theirin bloodline would have come to an end. I know that the bloodline doesn't mean much to you but it is important to many in Ferelden. The Theirins have been the only ruling family that they've EVER had so it's a big part of their national identity.

Just because you disagree with Eamon's arguments doesn't make them invalid.

I don't see how they need Alistair, because Anora could and should have gathered her allies and risen up against  Loghain (this has been done before). If Eamon did not know about the wardens' potential sterility, then it is beyond high time that someone told him.

And I'm not saying blood doesn't mean anything to me; I just feel it must be legitimate. Maybe it's a bit stubborn, but I cannot forsake a custom so deeply entrenched in my own culture for a video game.  

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

I agree with this, but it's really no more egregious than the Warden putting his/her choice of ruler on the throne and then remaining as chancellor or consort.  You want to run things your way, and Eamon wants to make sure that in the next round of kingmaking, Ferelden doesn't end up with another Loghain- Anora- Howe debacle.

It depends on the Warden. The Warden is sort of herded/forced into picking a ruler, even if they really don't care who is on the throne. A Warden can decide to leave Anora there, or replace her with Alistair, and do so simply on the basis they just want to get this whole mess over so they can continue on their business of defeating the Blight. And said Warden would probably not choose to be chancellor or consort, since they had no business in ruling.

It would be a matter of what kind of Warden one plays, but generally, my Wardens usually really don't, and dislike Eamon pushing them and Alistair into such a situation.

[Sarah1281]

I don't see how they need Alistair, because Anora could and should have gathered her allies and risen up against Loghain (this has been done before). If Eamon did not know about the wardens' potential sterility, then it is beyond high time that someone told him.

If Anora can't/won't do that then that is hardly a failing of Eamon's. He can hardly just assume that Anora would be on his side and try to work with her before getting to Denerim and the girl has to stage a rescue to even get the chance to talk to you.



I don't think it's a matter of 'if' he didn't know as no one would have any reason to think that GWs couldn't have children because no one knows they are tainted or what makes them different and somehow I doubt Alistair saw fit to tell Eamon when he barely finds time to tell his fellow Warden.

And I'm not saying blood doesn't mean anything to me; I just feel it must be legitimate. Maybe it's a bit stubborn, but I cannot forsake a custom so deeply entrenched in my own culture for a video game.

Illegitimate children can be legitimized by a governing body and the Landsmeet can and does do it to Alistair. You don't have to agree with Eamon that this should be done but I don't see why his believing that even a bastard Theirin is better than none at all is such a failing.

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I don't see how they need Alistair, because Anora could and should have gathered her allies and risen up against Loghain (this has been done before). If Eamon did not know about the wardens' potential sterility, then it is beyond high time that someone told him.

If Anora can't/won't do that then that is hardly a failing of Eamon's. He can hardly just assume that Anora would be on his side and try to work with her before getting to Denerim and the girl has to stage a rescue to even get the chance to talk to you.

I don't think it's a matter of 'if' he didn't know as no one would have any reason to think that GWs couldn't have children because no one knows they are tainted or what makes them different and somehow I doubt Alistair saw fit to tell Eamon when he barely finds time to tell his fellow Warden.

And I'm not saying blood doesn't mean anything to me; I just feel it must be legitimate. Maybe it's a bit stubborn, but I cannot forsake a custom so deeply entrenched in my own culture for a video game.

Illegitimate children can be legitimized by a governing body and the Landsmeet can and does do it to Alistair. You don't have to agree with Eamon that this should be done but I don't see why his believing that even a bastard Theirin is better than none at all is such a failing.

Then is up to Anora's subjects/allies to help her out of the Loghain mess, not actively plot against her.

And I know governing bodies can legitimize bastards; this has also been done before (though not without controversy and the general rule has never changed). I was just trying to clarify my position. Anora's line would be hardly unrelated to the Theirins (like the queen is not decende drom William I, but related to him).

[Sarah1281]

Anora's line would be hardly unrelated to the Theirins (like the queen is not decende drom William I, but related to him).

I don't think that this is true, actually. When the Orlesians came, they killed every Theirin they could. After Maric's mother died, he was the last to carry that name. There may be nobles who were too distantly related to them that the Orlesians didn't bother to kill but I think things like first cousins and the like would have been killed as well as they could claim the throne through that.

Anora is not related to ANY noble (save her father). Her father was the son of a freeholding farmer and was only promoted to the nobility for her service to Maric. Her mother was the daughter of a cabinet-maker.

Then is up to Anora's subjects/allies to help her out of the Loghain mess, not actively plot against her.

Okay, I like Anora and usually put her and Alistair on the throne together but this sounds a lot like 'If Anora is not competent enough to keep her father from stealing her throne, other people should do so for her instead of trying to provide a legitimate challenge to force Loghain to step down if not necessarily to give the formerly-helpless queen power.'

 I acknowledge that Anora was sitting on the throne but since it is required by law that each new monarch be voted on by the Landsmeet and this did not happen, I don't see 'her' rule post-Cailan's death and pre-Landsmeet as legitimate and if she did then I doubt she'd need to make a bid for the throne and would instead talk about how she is the legitimate ruler and Alistair is a usurper.

If she is not the legitimate queen, she does not have subjects and no one - least of all Eamon - has any obligation to just give her the throne because she wants it.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 11 janvier 2011 - 08:14 .