Wereparrot wrote...
Sarah1281 wrote...
It is my opinion that as a bastard Alistair has no reasonable claim to the throne. We can argue about this for all time and not reach a consensus, but I reserve the right to have my own views and play the game as I see fit. My original post was not to attack Alistair's controversial blood, but to attack Eamon's demeanor pertaining to the warden and Anora, his dominating manner and his (on my part) arrogance, not to mention his treason against Anora.
I think you've missed the point slightly. Alistair does not really have a claim to the throne and neither does Anora or anyone else. Cailan has no heir. There is no one in line for the throne. Under these circumstances, candidates can make a bid for the throne and politics support them. Only two p eople have made a bid. Anora-Loghain's faction and Alistair-Eamon's faction. Half of the nobles support Anora and half support Eamon.
I really don't understand why you think it is treason for Eamon to act against Anora. She was queen while Cailan was alive because he was king and she was his wife. Cailan died and it was required that a Landsmeet be called to confirm the new monarch. It wasn't. Just because Loghain had the biggest army left (and the second biggest was Eamon's and thus not available) and insisted on acting like Anora was still queen while he was the one to really rule does not mean that Anora was legitimately the ruler. It is not in any way treason that when a monarch dies with no heir and the time comes to propose a new ruler to put forth a candidate of your own instead of supporting the wife of the previous king whose name has been used for her father's rule over the past year.
The warden has the opportunity to assert his/her own political agenda at the Landsmeet, and we all certainly have our own, regardless of origin or Howe seizing your Terynir; whether that coincides with Eamon's is another matter entirely. so the warden is by no means without political influence.
Okay, how exactly do you get the opportunity to assert your own political agenda at the Landsmeet? Are you talking about when Eamon's done with his speech and Loghain starts debating with you? I don't think that really counts since Loghain and you just take turns accusing each other of things. Is it when Alistair won't accept that winning the duel means winning the crown and Anora tries to claim that this means he doesn't want the crown and thus she should be queen and thus EAMON says that she isn't impartian and thus asks you to do something? Becuase if it is then you only have influence because Eamon gives it to you. If Eamon had asked the Grand Cleric to decide then you would have had no influence at all and no one would have cared what you wanted.
I don't think Anora is overly hostile if you tell her that Alistair should be king, if I remember correctly.
Define 'overly hostile.' What she does is pretend that she will support you and then turn around and tell everyone at the Landsmeet that you kidnapped her and, when pressed, will admit that she never felt she was in danger from her father. It is REALLY difficult to win the Landsmeet without Anora's support.
If you did not say you'd support her by herself, with you, or with Alistair
Anora: Lords and ladies of Ferelden, hear me. This Warden has slandered and defamed Ferelden's greatest hero in a bid to put an imposter on Maric's throne.
[PC: What?!
Anora: It has become clear to me, Warden, that the true threat to this nation is you. I offered you the chance to ally with me for the good of this nation, and you refused it. I will not allow you to destroy the throne Cailan and I have held.]
[PC: He tried to kill you!
Anora: Did he? Are you certain of that? I know my father. He would never do less than his utmost for the sake of his country. But I needed to know your mind, Warden. You could have proven yourself an ally of Ferelden. It is unfortunate for all of us that you did not.]
[PC: I knew you were working with Loghain.
Anora: My father will always do what must be done for Ferelden. And it is clear to me now that you will not.]
Loghain: Who here can say that Anora is not fit to rule this land? And who can say that this Alistair is? We know nothing of him save that he may have royal blood. For five years Anora has been queen, and proven herself worthy of the Theirin name. She can lead our people through this crisis, and I can lead her armies.
How much more hostile can she get? Unlike Eamon, Anora will turn against you to support her father knowing full well that this will probably mean your death. She will put all of Ferelden at risk because she can't keep her crown.
At the Landsmeet Eamon doesn't have any choice but to support the warden, because to do otherwise is to speak treason in front of the whole Landsmeet.
How did you come to this conclusion? And what's with all the accusations of treason? Obviously, Eamon has no choice but to support the Warden but that's not because otherwise he'd commit treason or because the Warden has so much power and influence. He has to support the Warden because he was the one to give the power to make a decision to the Warden. If he says that the Warden should make the call and then turns around and says they should let someone else decide if you pick Anora then it's clear that he's only looking for a yes-man.
And Eamon was hardly supportive when I told him Anora would be a better ruler, just sweeping my comment under the carpet without any political reason why I should support Alistair.
Can you please try to remember that the game is very limited in terms of politics? I doubt that they have ANYONE'S position fully fleshed out. They had to cut a lot of things as it is, why would they spend time getting into little things like policies that Eamon opposes?
You don't vote for someone you know nothing about politically, especialy a king who would find it hard to endear himself to the nobles anyway, going by the conversations in the tavern. I don't remember any support from Eamon regarding my agenda pre-Landsmeet, or any recognition that I even had the intelligence to possess one.
You know nothing of Anora's politics either so yes, you are forced to vote for someone who you know nothing about politically. The conversations in the tavern don't mean that Alistair would find it impossible to win these people over. They don't want to replace Anora at the moment because of the Blight and because they know nothing about him so it looks like a power grab from Eamon.
I have to say, it really seems more like you object to Eamon more out of a bruised ego than anything else.
PC: I think she would make a better ruler than Alistair.
Eamon: Anora was a capable administrator for Cailan's lands, but she has not a drop of royal blood. We did not fight the Orlesians all those years just to lose our royal line in a single generation. Not when there's a surviving son of the blood.
PC: Alistair doesn't know the first thing about being king.
Alistair: No. I don't. Which I've told both of you on many occasions. If Anora's turned against Loghain, I say let her keep the crown. It looks better on her, anyway.
Eamon: You're both wrong. With a few months of experience, Alistair will make a fine king. He knows how to lead troops to defend his land. He knows how to stand and fight for justice. He knows how to show compassion to those less fortunate, and how to trust to the Maker's guidance to know right from wrong. And he knows who to turn to for aid should that training fail him. He will be fine.
Is this where he's being dismissive and insulting your intelligence? When you think that he would be a failure as a king and he takes the time to explain to you why he wouldn't be? I'm really not seeing the brush-off at all. Or maybe here?
PC: And she's single now, right...?
Eamon: Are you thinking you might stand a chance at courtship? It would be unseemly for her to marry so soon after Cailan's death. She wouldn't take that risk unless it helps her secure the throne.
Yes, he does think it's a bad idea but he's right that in Ferelden it would look bad for her to do that only a year after Cailan died. She will marry if marrying you or Alistair gets her the throne but only if it's a requirement. I don't see Eamon as insulting you here. He's explaining that it's unlikely that she would unless it helps her get the throne.
Keeping in mind the limits of game mechanics, where did Eamon go wrong? How is he insulting you or acting like you can't have an agenda? And what do you think that he should say that would make him not so detestable (also keeping in mind that it's unreasonable to expect him to change his mind)? His position isn't that Anora would make a horrible queen, just that Alistair would also make a capable king and he's a Theirin.
Alistair has no claim. Anora's claim is that she is the closest living relative of Cailin.
It is treason if Eamon starts denouncing Anora at the Landsmeet if she is allowed to keep her throne. I think you misunderstood me. Although I also regard Eamon's whole campaign as treason because I hold Anora to be the queen regnant.
I know more of Anora's politics/style of governance than Alastair's. Anora has been proven to be what Ferelden needs; Alistair's reactions if you spare Loghain portray him as exactly what Ferelden doesn't need. I may have my own political reasons to spare Loghain, at least until the Achdemon; and indeed I do, but he won't listen to reason.
I don't like Eamon out of a bruised ego? Not really. I assume you are referring to me playing as an HN? Sure I wish there was more dialogue tailored to that specific origin, but that's Bioware's doing, not Eamon's.
As for Alistair's kingly qualities: does he show good leadership? Not really. Does he show conviction? Not until he is made king, but we need to see it before then in order to elect him. Does he know how to stand and fight for justice? Yes, but does he show the leadership qualities neccessary for this? The jury is out. Does he show good foresight and decision-making? No, or we are not led to believe so. What Eamon says is pretty much worthless. Lots of kings were good warriors; it didn't make them good kings. All of what Eamon says about trying to convince me to join Alistair's cause and ditch Anora is pointless; I will not be bullied into an opinion by anyone, and find this particularly offensive. I will be the judge.
I don't get what you're trying to say about Anora. My policy is to marry her to stabilize the kingdom, although I have let her rule on her own before.
How does Alistair have no claim to the throne?
As a half-brother to Cailan, and son of Maric, he has more of a claim to the throne then Anora does - who was merely Cailan's wife and the daughter of a propped up Teryn.
Also, I don't know how you could hold Eamon's campaign as treason. Anora is no regent. Loghain proclaimed himself as the regent. And thus, he took the regency by force, cause he had the biggest army. In the matter of fact, I could make a argument he held a military coup and took it by force, making it worse then what Eamon did, which was just calling a Landmeet - LIKE LOGHAIN SHOULD'VE DONE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Also, you hardly know any of Anora's policies. Other then that she is described to be like Loghain. And what is Loghain? As Alistair has sad basically - the type of person who thinks they can fix things on their own and not let anyone else help them. Honestly, look what Loghain did - left the king to die and started a civil war cause he thought he was right. And you bash Alistair? As king, he would listen to advisors before making a final decision on something, to make sure he was right or wrong.
And Alistair? I don't think you have really gotten to know him. Throughout the game, if you play as a good person, he agrees with your decisions. He will stand up for them, and say if you're doing something bad. He learns to develop into a person of his own, and gains self-confidence. Till finally, when hardened - viola! - you got a good king. When you got a bastard son who comes out and says he wants to be a good king - one that is just, fights for what he believes in, and possesses the ability to win people over and lead? And don't say he can't lead. He gives a finer speech then Anora before the battle of Denerim, and in Awakening - well, he seems to know what he's doing.
When an NFL team drafts a QB, they don't expect him to already be a leader and great player, he takes time to develop. Though not as drastic as leading a country, Alistair will take time to develop into a great king. He has all the qualities, and as Eamon said, with help of others - he will have experience and develop. I would be willing to take a chance on him any day over a person like Anora.
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