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[Sarah1281]

Well, regardless of that (and you would not believe how many people hold this position) they don't have the political backing of Anora or Eamon so they're SOL.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 13 janvier 2011 - 06:15 .

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, regardless of that (and you would not believe how many people hold this position) they don't have the political backing of Anora or Eamon so they're SOL.

It was just an observation. Although you can become king-or-queen consort; and while I know consorts don't theoretically hold any political power, if Cousland Warden is actually afforded any is not told in-game. Presumably they would serve in an advisory role at least, and they would probably also be on the council of regency and likely regent in title. We already know that the king-consort is made general; and while not of political importance, it's something. 

[ejoslin]

Wereparrot wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, regardless of that (and you would not believe how many people hold this position) they don't have the political backing of Anora or Eamon so they're SOL.

It was just an observation. Although you can become king-or-queen consort; and while I know consorts don't theoretically hold any political power, if Cousland Warden is actually afforded any is not told in-game. Presumably they would serve in an advisory role at least, and they would probably also be on the council of regency and likely regent in title. We already know that the king-consort is made general; and while not of political importance, it's something. 

Princess Consort CousCous is also made general -- all wardens are.  In fact, Queenie Cousland, in a political marriage, is looked upon as the ruler and savior by the people and Alistair just lets her do whatever she wants.

But, and this is a very important "but", the power the queen Cousland has (and that Queen Anora had), is the power her royal husband allows her to have.

[Addai]

Wereparrot wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In many Feudal countries the Kings were elected by a council. And of the possible candidates, little else than royal blood was actually required. Anora does not have any (as mentioned) and therefore loses her claim to the throne with the death of Cailen, having been queen during his reign does not give her any claim, no matter how much of a political backing she have. She can, however, get the throne, just not through traditional claims.

I base my arguments on the English system, which is hereditary and subject to legitimacy.

And that's the whole problem in your argument.  Ferelden is NOT England.  Besides which that English law went through various mutations.

It's a game and the only rule is lore canon.

[Wereparrot]

ejoslin wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, regardless of that (and you would not believe how many people hold this position) they don't have the political backing of Anora or Eamon so they're SOL.

It was just an observation. Although you can become king-or-queen consort; and while I know consorts don't theoretically hold any political power, if Cousland Warden is actually afforded any is not told in-game. Presumably they would serve in an advisory role at least, and they would probably also be on the council of regency and likely regent in title. We already know that the king-consort is made general; and while not of political importance, it's something. 

Princess Consort CousCous is also made general -- all wardens are.  In fact, Queenie Cousland, in a political marriage, is looked upon as the ruler and savior by the people and Alistair just lets her do whatever she wants.

But, and this is a very important "but", the power the queen Cousland has (and that Queen Anora had), is the power her royal husband allows her to have.

Queen Cousland isn't declared general in name and in front of the Landsmeet. Maybe queen Cousland has more actual power than king Cousland but I think that's because Alistair is not as competent as Anora. Anyway, surely the king himself is general?

[ejoslin]

Wereparrot wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, regardless of that (and you would not believe how many people hold this position) they don't have the political backing of Anora or Eamon so they're SOL.

It was just an observation. Although you can become king-or-queen consort; and while I know consorts don't theoretically hold any political power, if Cousland Warden is actually afforded any is not told in-game. Presumably they would serve in an advisory role at least, and they would probably also be on the council of regency and likely regent in title. We already know that the king-consort is made general; and while not of political importance, it's something. 

Princess Consort CousCous is also made general -- all wardens are.  In fact, Queenie Cousland, in a political marriage, is looked upon as the ruler and savior by the people and Alistair just lets her do whatever she wants.

But, and this is a very important "but", the power the queen Cousland has (and that Queen Anora had), is the power her royal husband allows her to have.

Queen Cousland isn't declared general in name and in front of the Landsmeet. Maybe queen Cousland has more actual power than king Cousland but I think that's because Alistair is not as competent as Anora. Anyway, surely the king himself is general?

Of course she is.  All wardens are.

Edit; and in a political marriage, Alistair lets Queen Cousland have more power.  He LETS her.  In a love marriage, nothing is said.

second edit: Here's the exact line at the Landsmeet:

Alistair: My fellow Grey Warden will, I hope, take Loghain's place as the leader of my armies.

There is a conversation branch which will skip over this line, though.  However, it is said in two out of the three dialog choices.

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 janvier 2011 - 07:12 .

[LobselVith8]

Sarah1281 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Technically, she is the Teyrn's daughter, so that makes her noble. Unless the Warden specifically asks for the teyrnir of Gwaren, there's nothing in the way of Anora being recognized as the new Teyrn of Gwaren once Loghain loses all of his rights to it. As there are only two Teyrns in Ferelden, and one of them is dead, Anora is one of the most powerful members of the nobility. She's well-liked by many of the nobles, and even persuading them to the Warden's side is more about siding against Loghain than anything else.

Well...except her refusal to swear fealty to Alistair. He's not stupid enough to make someone who won't acknowledge him as king and who openly wants the throne herself one of the most powerful nobles around.

Then she's stripped of her title, true, but until then, she's the only heir to Loghain. I don't see why people assume that she's not noble when she's next in line to become Teyrna of Gwaren and her father is (at the start of DA:O) only one of two Teyrns in all of Ferelden.

Sarah1281 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The lack of prominence for the relatives could imply that they could be distant cousins, since Gaider mentioned them during a discussion of whether Alistair and Anora's potential inability to have children could mean the end of the Theirin bloodline.

I imagine that all those carrying the Theirin name were killed by the Orlesians save Maric's direct ancestors but they could still have relatives that married into, say, the Brylands.

That's a good possibility.

[Wereparrot]

Addai67 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

In many Feudal countries the Kings were elected by a council. And of the possible candidates, little else than royal blood was actually required. Anora does not have any (as mentioned) and therefore loses her claim to the throne with the death of Cailen, having been queen during his reign does not give her any claim, no matter how much of a political backing she have. She can, however, get the throne, just not through traditional claims.

I base my arguments on the English system, which is hereditary and subject to legitimacy.

And that's the whole problem in your argument.  Ferelden is NOT England.  Besides which that English law went through various mutations.

It's a game and the only rule is lore canon.

The constitution of the monarchy as regards succession to the throne has not gone through any signicant change other than to bar Catholics from the line of succession. And so you keep saying about the game lore. But I am free to have an opinion on the game lore, and to apply it to my gameplay experience if I wish.

[ejoslin]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Then she's stripped of her title, true, but until then, she's the only heir to Loghain. I don't see why people assume that she's not noble when she's next in line to become Teyrna of Gwaren and her father is (at the start of DA:O) only one of two Teyrns in all of Ferelden.

An interesting thing is Anora never claims to be the heir to Gwaren.  After you kill Loghain, she does not make that claim.  If you request a title and riches for your boon, she refers to Gwaren as her father's lands.

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 janvier 2011 - 07:20 .

[LobselVith8]

ejoslin wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


Then she's stripped of her title, true, but until then, she's the only heir to Loghain. I don't see why people assume that she's not noble when she's next in line to become Teyrna of Gwaren and her father is (at the start of DA:O) only one of two Teyrns in all of Ferelden.

An interesting thing is Anora never claims to be the heir to Gwaren.  After you kill Loghain, she does not make that claim.  If you request a title and riches for your boon, she refers to Gwaren as her father's lands.

True, but it doesn't change that she is technically the heir to Gwaren since her father is Loghain, and she's his only child. It seems clear that her desire is to continue to be Queen, not be relegated to presiding over Gwaren. Anora wants to be the ruler of Ferelden, she has some good and ambitious plans for the nation, and she's not interested in presiding over a distant province of fisherman.

[Wereparrot]

Alistair: My fellow Grey Warden will, I hope, take Loghain's place as the leader of my armies.

I haven't played an HNF in ages so I admit I was wrong there; this just reminded me.

But...that's weird. Head of state not general of his own forces? Even Cailin was. Loghain may have been general but Cailin was definitely in command.

[LobselVith8]

Wereparrot wrote...

Alistair: My fellow Grey Warden will, I hope, take Loghain's place as the leader of my armies.

I haven't played an HNF in ages so I admit I was wrong there; this just reminded me.

But...that's weird. Head of state not general of his own forces? Even Cailin was. Loghain may have been general but Cailin was definitely in command.

Both Alistair and Anora declare the Grey Warden to be the head of the army, even if Loghain is spared.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 13 janvier 2011 - 07:29 .

[ejoslin]

Wereparrot wrote...

Alistair: My fellow Grey Warden will, I hope, take Loghain's place as the leader of my armies.

I haven't played an HNF in ages so I admit I was wrong there; this just reminded me.

But...that's weird. Head of state not general of his own forces? Even Cailin was. Loghain may have been general but Cailin was definitely in command.

Anora does as well.  The lines are almost identical between king-consort and non-king-consort.

Anora: And now, lords and ladies of Ferelden. There is still a Blight to defeat and armies to gather, and I appoint this {man/woman} to lead us in both. (spoken to a large crowd, this is a royal pronouncement)
Anora: We will not allow this land to be further threatened by the archdemon. (making a stirring speech to a large crowd)
Anora: Gather your forces and await the {king-consort's/warden's} command. (making a stirring speech to a large crowd)

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 janvier 2011 - 07:34 .

[ejoslin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


Then she's stripped of her title, true, but until then, she's the only heir to Loghain. I don't see why people assume that she's not noble when she's next in line to become Teyrna of Gwaren and her father is (at the start of DA:O) only one of two Teyrns in all of Ferelden.

An interesting thing is Anora never claims to be the heir to Gwaren.  After you kill Loghain, she does not make that claim.  If you request a title and riches for your boon, she refers to Gwaren as her father's lands.

True, but it doesn't change that she is technically the heir to Gwaren since her father is Loghain, and she's his only child. It seems clear that her desire is to continue to be Queen, not be relegated to presiding over Gwaren. Anora wants to be the ruler of Ferelden, she has some good and ambitious plans for the nation, and she's not interested in presiding over a distant province of fisherman.

See, that's the thing that makes me wonder if she's actually noble, aside from people calling her a commoner and such.  Because you would think that she would be heir of Gwaren, unless, since he was a commoner, it is not something that he can actually pass down.  

Which would mean, of course, that a non-noble warden who was awarded Gwaren, if they managed to have an heir, would not pass the Teyrnir to their child.  

It's possible it was an honorary title he was given, but not hereditary.  I don't know.  Nothing is really said about it other than Gwaren is not Anora's.

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 janvier 2011 - 07:46 .

[Wereparrot]

ejoslin wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Alistair: My fellow Grey Warden will, I hope, take Loghain's place as the leader of my armies.

I haven't played an HNF in ages so I admit I was wrong there; this just reminded me.

But...that's weird. Head of state not general of his own forces? Even Cailin was. Loghain may have been general but Cailin was definitely in command.

Anora does as well.  The lines are almost identical between king-consort and non-king-consort.

Anora: And now, lords and ladies of Ferelden. There is still a Blight to defeat and armies to gather, and I appoint this {man/woman} to lead us in both. (spoken to a large crowd, this is a royal pronouncement)
Anora: We will not allow this land to be further threatened by the archdemon. (making a stirring speech to a large crowd)
Anora: Gather your forces and await the {king-consort's/warden's} command. (making a stirring speech to a large crowd)

HNM was my latest playthrough, so yeah. But Anora was never militarily inclined, so I would only expect her to defer the generalship. Alistair, however, is a soldier. At the very least I would expect Alistair to remain commander-in-chief as Anora would probably be, but is even that too much to ask of him, defering much as he does to his consort? So much for Eamon's claims that Alistair would provide good leadership.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 13 janvier 2011 - 07:44 .

[ejoslin]

Wereparrot wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Alistair: My fellow Grey Warden will, I hope, take Loghain's place as the leader of my armies.

I haven't played an HNF in ages so I admit I was wrong there; this just reminded me.

But...that's weird. Head of state not general of his own forces? Even Cailin was. Loghain may have been general but Cailin was definitely in command.

Anora does as well.  The lines are almost identical between king-consort and non-king-consort.

Anora: And now, lords and ladies of Ferelden. There is still a Blight to defeat and armies to gather, and I appoint this {man/woman} to lead us in both. (spoken to a large crowd, this is a royal pronouncement)
Anora: We will not allow this land to be further threatened by the archdemon. (making a stirring speech to a large crowd)
Anora: Gather your forces and await the {king-consort's/warden's} command. (making a stirring speech to a large crowd)

HNM was my latest playthrough, so yeah. But Anora was never militarily inclined, so I would only expect her to defer the generalship. Alistair, however, is a soldier. At the very least I would expect Alistair to remain commander-in-chief as Anora would probably be, but is even that too much to ask of him, defering much as he does to the his consort? So much for Eamon's claims that Alistair would provide good leadership.

My point was that every warden is made general, not just Anora's betrothed, and it's declared at the landsmeet.

But why would Alistair be commander-in-chief?  He's been following the warden's command the entire game.

[Wereparrot]

ejoslin wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Alistair: My fellow Grey Warden will, I hope, take Loghain's place as the leader of my armies.

I haven't played an HNF in ages so I admit I was wrong there; this just reminded me.

But...that's weird. Head of state not general of his own forces? Even Cailin was. Loghain may have been general but Cailin was definitely in command.

Anora does as well.  The lines are almost identical between king-consort and non-king-consort.

Anora: And now, lords and ladies of Ferelden. There is still a Blight to defeat and armies to gather, and I appoint this {man/woman} to lead us in both. (spoken to a large crowd, this is a royal pronouncement)
Anora: We will not allow this land to be further threatened by the archdemon. (making a stirring speech to a large crowd)
Anora: Gather your forces and await the {king-consort's/warden's} command. (making a stirring speech to a large crowd)

HNM was my latest playthrough, so yeah. But Anora was never militarily inclined, so I would only expect her to defer the generalship. Alistair, however, is a soldier. At the very least I would expect Alistair to remain commander-in-chief as Anora would probably be, but is even that too much to ask of him, defering much as he does to the his consort? So much for Eamon's claims that Alistair would provide good leadership.

But why would Alistair be commander-in-chief?  He's been following the warden's command the entire game.

Because he's head of state. If a monarch is not commander-in-chief of their own forces, then what are they? What then gives them authority to command their troops? It is the major role of a monarch. I know he has been following the Warden for the whole game, but he has no choice because you don't play Alistair and without the Warden there would be no game.

[LobselVith8]

ejoslin wrote...

See, that's the thing that makes me wonder if she's actually noble, aside from people calling her a commoner and such.  Because you would think that she would be heir of Gwaren, unless, since he was a commoner, it is not something that he can actually pass down.  

Which would mean, of course, that a non-noble warden who was awarded Gwaren, if they managed to have an heir, would not pass the Teyrnir to their child.  

It's possible it was an honorary title he was given, but not hereditary.  I don't know.  Nothing is really said about it other than Gwaren is not Anora's.

But that's because it's Loghain's teyrnir, and she's currently Queen at the start of the story. She has no plans for Gwaren, and it's clearly able to be handled by its administrators since Loghain was always away with Maric while Anora eventually became Queen, and ruled the nation in Cailan's name. There's no reason she wouldn't be the heir to Gwaren, except if Alistair strips her of her title and holdings to avoid a civil war.

People dismiss Loghain and Anora as commoners because Loghain was made Teyrn thirty years ago by Maric, with his background being as a farmer's son, and despite technically being noble now, I'm sure that many people look down on them as not being real nobles. Same way that everyone looks down on mages despite the Tevinter Imperium being responsible for the slavery and bloodshed of their empire.

The teyrnir of Gwaren is no different than Highever, with the title of Teyrn being passed down. There's no reason that the Hero of River Dane would get the royal boon of being one of the most powerful nobles in the entire nation, to the point that Maric and Loghain arranged for their children to be married, but would try to diminish his role as Teyrn in any way. If Loghain had a second child, I'd imagine that it'd be more likely that child would be the heir to the teyrnir, since Anora's ambition is to continue to be Queen of the entire nation of Ferelden.

[ejoslin]

@Wereparrot Hah, with that massive quoting, why did you edit out my first line without indicating it was snipped?

And anything you say about Alistair can be applied to Anora.

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 janvier 2011 - 07:56 .

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

See, that's the thing that makes me wonder if she's actually noble, aside from people calling her a commoner and such.  Because you would think that she would be heir of Gwaren, unless, since he was a commoner, it is not something that he can actually pass down.  

Which would mean, of course, that a non-noble warden who was awarded Gwaren, if they managed to have an heir, would not pass the Teyrnir to their child.  

It's possible it was an honorary title he was given, but not hereditary.  I don't know.  Nothing is really said about it other than Gwaren is not Anora's.

I'm pretty sure Loghain says something about Anora being a noble because he was made a teyrn.  Can't remember the particulars, though.

[Addai]

LobselVith8 wrote...
People dismiss Loghain and Anora as commoners because Loghain was made Teyrn thirty years ago by Maric, with his background being as a farmer's son, and despite technically being noble now, I'm sure that many people look down on them as not being real nobles. Same way that everyone looks down on mages despite the Tevinter Imperium being responsible for the slavery and bloodshed of their empire.

Also because Anora's mother was a commoner.

I think people calling them commoners is just a snub because they're "upjumped."

[ejoslin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

See, that's the thing that makes me wonder if she's actually noble, aside from people calling her a commoner and such.  Because you would think that she would be heir of Gwaren, unless, since he was a commoner, it is not something that he can actually pass down.  

Which would mean, of course, that a non-noble warden who was awarded Gwaren, if they managed to have an heir, would not pass the Teyrnir to their child.  

It's possible it was an honorary title he was given, but not hereditary.  I don't know.  Nothing is really said about it other than Gwaren is not Anora's.

But that's because it's Loghain's teyrnir, and she's currently Queen at the start of the story. She has no plans for Gwaren, and it's clearly able to be handled by its administrators since Loghain was always away with Maric while Anora eventually became Queen, and ruled the nation in Cailan's name. There's no reason she wouldn't be the heir to Gwaren, except if Alistair strips her of her title and holdings to avoid a civil war.

People dismiss Loghain and Anora as commoners because Loghain was made Teyrn thirty years ago by Maric, with his background being as a farmer's son, and despite technically being noble now, I'm sure that many people look down on them as not being real nobles. Same way that everyone looks down on mages despite the Tevinter Imperium being responsible for the slavery and bloodshed of their empire.

The teyrnir of Gwaren is no different than Highever, with the title of Teyrn being passed down. There's no reason that the Hero of River Dane would get the royal boon of being one of the most powerful nobles in the entire nation, to the point that Maric and Loghain arranged for their children to be married, but would try to diminish his role as Teyrn in any way. If Loghain had a second child, I'd imagine that it'd be more likely that child would be the heir to the teyrnir, since Anora's ambition is to continue to be Queen of the entire nation of Ferelden.

See, I'm not arguing with you per se -- I honestly do NOT understand why Anora would not be considered teyrna of Gwaren.  You'd think, even though she could appoint someone else to it, that if she could inherit Gwaren, she would have, like it or not.  But even she refers to Gwaren as her father's lands, not hers.  It's an awfully valuable asset to just, well, be ignored.  Especially if it is mainly handled by administrators.

After all, a warden can be both the monarch's consort and the Teyrn(a) of Gwaren.  One does not preclude the other.

That's what, again, makes me wonder if appointing a commoner to become a Teyrn is actually just an honorary title, but not a hereditary one.  Of course, for a noble, it would be hereditary.  But perhaps not for a commoner.

Edit; A further thought.  If you make someone the Bann of the alienage (using this instead of Shianni's since this epi isn't bugged), when they're murdered, their title doesn't pass on to a family member.  No new Bann is appointed either.  Only the elf appointed Bann is considered noble, not their family.  So it's very possible that commoners being raised to nobility don't pass that onto their families.

Modifié par ejoslin, 13 janvier 2011 - 08:13 .

[LobselVith8]

ejoslin wrote...

See, I'm not arguing with you per se -- I honestly do NOT understand why Anora would not be considered teyrna of Gwaren.  You'd think, even though she could appoint someone else to it, that if she could inherit Gwaren, she would have, like it or not.  But even she refers to Gwaren as her father's lands, not hers.  It's an awfully valuable asset to just, well, be ignored.  Especially if it is mainly handled by administrators.

I'd assume she does if the Warden doesn't ask for the teyrnir of Gwaren by default of being Loghain's only child, although I think her primary focus is being Queen. If I had to guess, I'd say that her priority seems to be with Ferelden. Her ambition to build a university, to refill the coffers, and to rule alone tells me that she's not looking to have a lineage follow in her footsteps like Calenhad did.

As a side-note, I'm actually curious how an elf, a mage, or both (in my Warden's case) would be received by the people of Gwaren.

ejoslin wrote...

After all, a warden can be both the monarch's consort and the Teyrn(a) of Gwaren.  One does not preclude the other.

I think it's merely a matter of Anora's priorities. Technically, nothing precludes her from handling her affairs as the Queen and being Teyrna of Gwaren, but it doesn't really seem to be an issue for her.

ejoslin wrote...

That's what, again, makes me wonder if appointing a commoner to become a Teyrn is actually just an honorary title, but not a hereditary one.  Of course, for a noble, it would be hereditary.  But perhaps not for a commoner.

Loghain's guard at Ostagar references how Loghain was a commoner who was made high born overnight for his actions during the rebellion, so it seems to be more than just an honorary title. I don't imagine that Maric would've prevented Loghain from being an actual noble, especially given his heroic status as the Hero of River Dane and the Couslands being the only other teyrnir in the entire nation.

[ejoslin]

While Maric may not have, Ferelden nobles would most likely have a say in it.



Anora does not consider Gwaren hers. she does not say, if you ask for them, that you may have her Teyrnir.



And then this is further complicated by Loghain being stripped of his titles. He's not a noble by the time he dies. This actually is most likely why Anora is not the Teyrna of Gwaren. But then, well, what is she? She's not noble (just as Nathaniel Howe is no longer a noble), yet she can be made queen. Most likely because of her popularity with the nobles.



And having an elf/mage/dwarf Teyrn(a) of Gwaren I cannot imagine would last more than one generation, if that.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

As a side-note, I'm actually curious how an elf, a mage, or both (in my Warden's case) would be received by the people of Gwaren.

Say rather, how would the people of Gwaren would receive the Hero of Fereldan as their new Liege Lord now that Loghain is dead.  Probably pretty well actially given that their last Teryn was also of irregular background anyway.  I note that the nobles and commoners (esp commoners) of Amaranthine have no issue with the Hero of Fereldan being their new Arl.  [Sure some of the old Howe Loyalists try to kill you, but they'd try to kill any new Arl that opposed Howe].

Now, if you botch the job, that goodwill would likely vanish far faster than a more traditional noble's would, but if Amaranthine and DAA is any indication, you'd start with a considerable amount of good will.

-Polaris