969 réponses à ce sujet

[Wereparrot]

mousestalker wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...


Might I add that it is very unwise to appoint his wife as general, since the relationship may compromise missions and put lives in danger, especially if they fight in the same unit.

Would you mind explaining this? I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.

In battle everyone has to trust everyone else with their life. You have to set aside personal feelings, chivalry and prejudices and not act rashly and without thought, and also to put aside any distractions. If a relationship starts to develop, there may be serious problems as regards to operational effectiveness. Hopefully you can see that this would lead to discord.

[ejoslin]

Wereparrot wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...


Might I add that it is very unwise to appoint his wife as general, since the relationship may compromise missions and put lives in danger, especially if they fight in the same unit.

Would you mind explaining this? I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.

In battle everyone has to trust everyone else with their life. You have to set aside personal feelings, chivalry and prejudices and not act rashly and without thought, and also to put aside any distractions. If a relationship starts to develop, there may be serious problems as regards to operational effectiveness. Hopefully you can see that this would lead to discord.

so there should be no romance in DA?  Again, Alistair and the femWarden can be in a political marriage (my favorite ending in fact).

[LobselVith8]

ejoslin wrote...

I wrote a new flag so that any of the city elf boon flags will go to those slides.  

Thanks for describing it for me. Sounds like you've gone through a lot of work to implement those changes and correct the flags.

ejoslin wrote...

As far as the Dalish, someone just didn't set the condition for the flag showing, so it shows for everyone.  It's not that a flag is set or cleared -- it's just that it got missed.  It's in the scripting comments that that slide should only go for the Dalish boon.

So DA2 wouldn't likely register the Dalish boon because it's merely pertaining to the epilogue slides shown?

ejoslin wrote...

As far as DA2 and such -- if you make yourself Bann in the city elf ending when talking to Alistair, my guess is it won't be registered.  If you make Shianni bann or someone else bann or a warden Bann when the boon is from Anora, it will be registered.

Thanks again. There wouldn't happen to be any missing epilogues for the Warden as Teyrn or for the Magi boon, would there?

[ejoslin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I wrote a new flag so that any of the city elf boon flags will go to those slides.  

Thanks for describing it for me. Sounds like you've gone through a lot of work to implement those changes and correct the flags.

ejoslin wrote...

As far as the Dalish, someone just didn't set the condition for the flag showing, so it shows for everyone.  It's not that a flag is set or cleared -- it's just that it got missed.  It's in the scripting comments that that slide should only go for the Dalish boon.

So DA2 wouldn't likely register the Dalish boon because it's merely pertaining to the epilogue slides shown?

ejoslin wrote...

As far as DA2 and such -- if you make yourself Bann in the city elf ending when talking to Alistair, my guess is it won't be registered.  If you make Shianni bann or someone else bann or a warden Bann when the boon is from Anora, it will be registered.

Thanks again. There wouldn't happen to be any missing epilogues for the Warden as Teyrn or for the Magi boon, would there?

As far as the Dalish boon, right.  The Dalish boon flag is set when talking to the regnant post-coronation.  what bearing the boons actually have on DA2 is anyone's guess.

There are no Terynir boon slides, unfortunately, and the ones for the magi boon are triggering (I believe -- they look like should be, but if they're not, the problem would be in the corrupted post_coronation file).  the only other missing slides are the ones for Brother Genetivi if he survives -- usually people get the slides that are supposed to appear if he dies -- and the one for the werewolves if you let them live.  It actually wouldn't surprise me if they also appeared in DA2, at least in a mention.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 janvier 2011 - 04:36 .

[Wereparrot]

ejoslin wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

The warden has been leading the whole game because that is the point of the game, and as a fantasy game Bioware can do what they like; but from a strictly military point of view and imagining that the game was actually real life, it is unwise to have women in the infantry at all, because of the whole relationship and chivalry thing, regardless of Alistair's relationship with the female warden, be it romantic or platonic. It's not, as some believe, about strength and ability to do the job.

I don't for a moment suggest that fantasy games should go all realistic and ban women from fighting in armies and then give this as an excuse.

well, leaving aside that women DO serve, and serve well in military services (I am NOT about to debate that here), your argument fails since you're now judging Alistair by your standards rather than by the standards set in the game, where women can serve in the military and can rise high within the ranks (Ser Cauthrien, for example).

I think that you really liked the idea of Anora handing off the military to her Consort, and felt that that was showing that she considered her Consort as co-leader.  I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're elevating that position to one that was higher than it actually is in the game (one of equal to the regent rather than the general).  The fact is, though, that all wardens are appointed to general of Ferelden's armies (as well as the other armies they gathered), and it's only that -- the position that Loghain had occupied.

Did you even read what I said? Women do not serve in infantry roles. I did not say they cannot serve in the forces period.

I really don't know what your point is. I am speaking hypothetically; I am not referring to the customs of Ferelden or events of DAO. While I did elevate king-and-queen-consort's position to the regency, I did not elevate their military role to the rank of commander-in-chief.

Aren't I allowed to compare a fictional world to reality now?

(women do serve in the infantry in at least one nation I can think of off hand -- Israel -- and they serve in combat situations as fighters, though not infantry, in many others -- again, not something I'm going to debate here)

You're allowed to do many things -- including that!  But if you're holding Alistair to a standard that is not valid to the world he was written in, it does make your arguments, well, weak.  I'm actually trying to figure out what your arguments ARE.  I assume, perhaps wrongly, that we're talking about Dragon Age.  I thought you were saying (again, perhaps I'm misreading) that Alistair should not have handed off the general role to the warden.  What I say to that is that Alistair is acting in a dual role, both as king and a gray warden.  As a king, he is in charge of his military; as a gray warden, he continues to follow the warden who took up command.  For sake of ease, I would imagine, just like the other armies, he leaves his armies in the hands of the gray warden for the fight for the blight.  However, Alistair is very much the king, down to rallying the troops at the gate.

I didn't know about Israel. I'm not debating women serving in the military; I'm just telling you how it is in Britain.

I am trying to take Alistair's/Anora's monarchy and relate it to my own thoughts and the customs of my country. I am not arguing against the story, at least not in this. I questioned Alistair's commitment to the kingship and his role as commander-in-chief because of his relinquishing much power and bestowing it on queen Cousland, including the generalship, which is a role that, as a soldier, I would expect him to fulfill. Conversely, when king Cousland is given the generalship, the arguement over whether Anora should take it instead is irrelevant because Anora is not a soldier.

The issue of women serving in the military came about because I raised doubts over the effectiveness of Alistair's army if he and queen Cousland were serving in the same unit. I stand by what I said, as I have already justified my comments in relation to the British Army, but I recognize and accept that the customs of Ferelden are different.

[Wereparrot]

ejoslin wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...


Might I add that it is very unwise to appoint his wife as general, since the relationship may compromise missions and put lives in danger, especially if they fight in the same unit.

Would you mind explaining this? I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.

In battle everyone has to trust everyone else with their life. You have to set aside personal feelings, chivalry and prejudices and not act rashly and without thought, and also to put aside any distractions. If a relationship starts to develop, there may be serious problems as regards to operational effectiveness. Hopefully you can see that this would lead to discord.

so there should be no romance in DA?  Again, Alistair and the femWarden can be in a political marriage (my favorite ending in fact).

I didn't say that. I am willing to suspend belief for a game, but I am free to provide a commentary and relate it to real world practices.

[Sarah1281]

It's not that Alistair and his LI are serving in the same unit. They aren't really part of a unit at all. He is the king and she is the general. They travel together in the same small group that they have been a part of since the beginning and they are in no more danger because of their relationship than they were for the entire duration of the relationship.

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It's not that Alistair and his LI are serving in the same unit. They aren't really part of a unit at all. He is the king and she is the general. They travel together in the same small group that they have been a part of since the beginning and they are in no more danger because of their relationship than they were for the entire duration of the relationship.

Kings are free as commanders-in-chief to fight in whichever unit they please. Anyway, it's not neccessarily that they would be in danger, but the people around them too.

[ejoslin]

Wereparrot wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

mousestalker wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...


Might I add that it is very unwise to appoint his wife as general, since the relationship may compromise missions and put lives in danger, especially if they fight in the same unit.

Would you mind explaining this? I'm not sure I follow your reasoning.

In battle everyone has to trust everyone else with their life. You have to set aside personal feelings, chivalry and prejudices and not act rashly and without thought, and also to put aside any distractions. If a relationship starts to develop, there may be serious problems as regards to operational effectiveness. Hopefully you can see that this would lead to discord.

so there should be no romance in DA?  Again, Alistair and the femWarden can be in a political marriage (my favorite ending in fact).

I didn't say that. I am willing to suspend belief for a game, but I am free to provide a commentary and relate it to real world practices.

So this applies to a male warden and say, well, Leliana or Morrigan or Zevran?

[LobselVith8]

ejoslin wrote...

As far as the Dalish boon, right.  The Dalish boon flag is set when talking to the regnant post-coronation.  what bearing the boons actually have on DA2 is anyone's guess.

Thanks. I'm hoping they address the Magi boon for DA2.

Since you've done some extensive work looking into the bugs, I was hoping to ask, if the Warden hands over 5 soverigns to Katilyn before the battle against the undead, and hands the 5 soverigns to Bella after the battle but doesn't speak to Bella after the barkeep is recruited until the next day, will their epilogues show up? I'm trying to do a canon run again and I've always had a bit of trouble getting their slides to show, and I'm on console so I can't download unofficial patches.

ejoslin wrote...

There are no Terynir boon slides, unfortunately, and the ones for the magi boon are triggering (I believe -- they look like should be, but if they're not, the problem would be in the corrupted post_coronation file).

Thanks. I think the talk with Irving is bugged (I've heard he's supposed to acknowledge the Magi boon when speaking to the Warden, but doesn't in the vanilla game) and I know the Circle epilogue is mentioned where the Tower is all clear, but that's all.

I did hear the Cullen endings only show if the Circle is actually culled, and he's either a raving madman or the new Knight-Commander depending on whether the Circle is given it's independence at the end.

ejoslin wrote...

the only other missing slides are the ones for Brother Genetivi if he survives -- usually people get the slides that are supposed to appear if he dies --

I'm only familiar with him killing himself if the Urn is destroyed or him discovering the Urn.

ejoslin wrote...
and the one for the werewolves if you let them live. 

You mean the one where they all go by the surname Wolf?

[Sarah1281]

Wereparrot wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

It's not that Alistair and his LI are serving in the same unit. They aren't really part of a unit at all. He is the king and she is the general. They travel together in the same small group that they have been a part of since the beginning and they are in no more danger because of their relationship than they were for the entire duration of the relationship.

Kings are free as commanders-in-chief to fight in whichever unit they please. Anyway, it's not neccessarily that they would be in danger, but the people around them too.

No more danger than they would before Alistair became king and they were fighting in the same unit. What is the fear anyway? That they would let their hormones distract them during battle and not protect someone? By that point in the game, they would have had enough practices fighting in the presence of their LI that I think they can keep it professional.

[LobselVith8]

Wereparrot wrote...

I am trying to take Alistair's/Anora's monarchy and relate it to my own thoughts and the customs of my country. I am not arguing against the story, at least not in this. I questioned Alistair's commitment to the kingship and his role as commander-in-chief because of his relinquishing much power and bestowing it on queen Cousland, including the generalship, which is a role that, as a soldier, I would expect him to fulfill. Conversely, when king Cousland is given the generalship, the arguement over whether Anora should take it instead is irrelevant because Anora is not a soldier.

Given that the Warden has been gathering the armies and leading everyone for a year now, I'm not surprised that Alistair trusts the Warden to lead the armies against the darkspawn. The Warden has been the one to get the support in the first place, after all.

Wereparrot wrote...

The issue of women serving in the military came about because I raised doubts over the effectiveness of Alistair's army if he and queen Cousland were serving in the same unit. I stand by what I said, as I have already justified my comments in relation to the British Army, but I recognize and accept that the customs of Ferelden are different.

Given how tough Ser Cauthrien is when you attack Howe's estate and how she seems to care about Loghain, I don't think it's an issue.

[Sarah1281]

I stand by what I said, as I have already justified my comments in relation to the British Army, but I recognize and accept that the customs of Ferelden are different.

So you say and yet you seem to be judging this by modern British standards.

[ejoslin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

As far as the Dalish boon, right.  The Dalish boon flag is set when talking to the regnant post-coronation.  what bearing the boons actually have on DA2 is anyone's guess.

Thanks. I'm hoping they address the Magi boon for DA2.

Since you've done some extensive work looking into the bugs, I was hoping to ask, if the Warden hands over 5 soverigns to Katilyn before the battle against the undead, and hands the 5 soverigns to Bella after the battle but doesn't speak to Bella after the barkeep is recruited until the next day, will their epilogues show up? I'm trying to do a canon run again and I've always had a bit of trouble getting their slides to show, and I'm on console so I can't download unofficial patches.

ejoslin wrote...

There are no Terynir boon slides, unfortunately, and the ones for the magi boon are triggering (I believe -- they look like should be, but if they're not, the problem would be in the corrupted post_coronation file).

Thanks. I think the talk with Irving is bugged (I've heard he's supposed to acknowledge the Magi boon when speaking to the Warden, but doesn't in the vanilla game) and I know the Circle epilogue is mentioned where the Tower is all clear, but that's all.

I did hear the Cullen endings only show if the Circle is actually culled, and he's either a raving madman or the new Knight-Commander depending on whether the Circle is given it's independence at the end.

ejoslin wrote...

the only other missing slides are the ones for Brother Genetivi if he survives -- usually people get the slides that are supposed to appear if he dies --

I'm only familiar with him killing himself if the Urn is destroyed or him discovering the Urn.

ejoslin wrote...
and the one for the werewolves if you let them live. 

You mean the one where they all go by the surname Wolf?

If Irving doesn't acknowledge the boon (if alive), then the flag wasn't set.  I really REALLY wish that file wasn't corrupted so I could check that.  But I have seen the Cullen slides, so at least one regnant has the flag set correctly.

With Genetivi, a flag was used to trigger those slides that rarely would get set (you had to send him home after he saw the temple IIRC).  I changed it to them triggering if he wasn't attacked (he always dies if attacked) as per the script notes they're supposed to trigger when he's alive.

For the werewolves, yes, that's the one i was talking about.  The absolute wrong flag was used there (though, honestly, the way it was named it seemed like it should be the correct flag -- I had to look up the file to see which flag really was used).

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

It's not that Alistair and his LI are serving in the same unit. They aren't really part of a unit at all. He is the king and she is the general. They travel together in the same small group that they have been a part of since the beginning and they are in no more danger because of their relationship than they were for the entire duration of the relationship.

Kings are free as commanders-in-chief to fight in whichever unit they please. Anyway, it's not neccessarily that they would be in danger, but the people around them too.

No more danger than they would before Alistair became king and they were fighting in the same unit. What is the fear anyway? That they would let their hormones distract them during battle and not protect someone? By that point in the game, they would have had enough practices fighting in the presence of their LI that I think they can keep it professional.

I would hope for the harmony of their army that they could keep it professional. Hormones are exactly what I'm talking about, and not just as concerns romantic relationships. In the heat of battle there is no place for this.

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I stand by what I said, as I have already justified my comments in relation to the British Army, but I recognize and accept that the customs of Ferelden are different.

So you say and yet you seem to be judging this by modern British standards.

What else am I supposed to compare it to?

[Sarah1281]

Feel free to compare but it's fruitless to hold them to modern standards. And how would hormones endanger them? Are people really going to stop and stare at their crush in the middle of a battle? You also seem to be forgetting that by the time that Alistair is king, he and his LI have been managing to both be attracted to each other AND kill darkspawn without getting everyone else killed.

[LobselVith8]

ejoslin wrote...

If Irving doesn't acknowledge the boon (if alive), then the flag wasn't set.  I really REALLY wish that file wasn't corrupted so I could check that.

F***.

ejoslin wrote...

With Genetivi, a flag was used to trigger those slides that rarely would get set (you had to send him home after he saw the temple IIRC).  I changed it to them triggering if he wasn't attacked (he always dies if attacked) as per the script notes they're supposed to trigger when he's alive.

So he has multiple epilogue slides? All I heard was the one where he committed suicide if the Urn was gone and the one where he lead the expedition if the Urn was there.

[ejoslin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

If Irving doesn't acknowledge the boon (if alive), then the flag wasn't set.  I really REALLY wish that file wasn't corrupted so I could check that.

F***.

ejoslin wrote...

With Genetivi, a flag was used to trigger those slides that rarely would get set (you had to send him home after he saw the temple IIRC).  I changed it to them triggering if he wasn't attacked (he always dies if attacked) as per the script notes they're supposed to trigger when he's alive.

So he has multiple epilogue slides? All I heard was the one where he committed suicide if the Urn was gone and the one where he lead the expedition if the Urn was there.

The slides you're talking about are rarely triggered.  The slides most people get don't reference him -- just the chantry looking for the ashes based on rumors regarding Eamon's recovery.

[LobselVith8]

ejoslin wrote...

The slides you're talking about are rarely triggered.  The slides most people get don't reference him -- just the chantry looking for the ashes based on rumors regarding Eamon's recovery.

That's odd. I never really have an issue with those slides. I know the Urn epilogues are bugged if the Urn is ruined, but then Kolgrim and the Dragon Andraste are killed, because it reverts to the Chantry finding the ashes regardless of them technically being destroyed.

Are you familiar with the Bella and Kaitlyn bugs? The two women from Redcliffe who the Warden can help out. I've had problems in the past getting their epilogue slides to trigger and I found out if Kaitlyn is given the money before the battle against the undead, and if Bella is given the money without speaking to her for a second time (until the next day, after Teegan celebrates your victory) then their epilogues should show. Do you know if this is accurate?

[Sarah1281]

Yeah, speaking of that...is there one that's supposed to have higher precedence? Like if you help both of them, which one is supposed to end up with Teagan?

[Wereparrot]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Feel free to compare but it's fruitless to hold them to modern standards. And how would hormones endanger them? Are people really going to stop and stare at their crush in the middle of a battle? You also seem to be forgetting that by the time that Alistair is king, he and his LI have been managing to both be attracted to each other AND kill darkspawn without getting everyone else killed.

I am not holding Ferelden standards in this regard to anything, I am merely presenting my expectations of Alistair as portrayed in my own culture.

Alistair and queen Cousland have only been able to weather the whole as they have because it's a game, and emotions aren't as complex as in real life. 

Generals themselves have said that it is not a good idea for women to serve in infantry roles because of the potential emotional issues, and the potential consequences are greater than people stopping mid sword-stroke and gawping.

[LobselVith8]

Wereparrot wrote...

I am not holding Ferelden standards in this regard to anything, I am merely presenting my expectations of Alistair as portrayed in my own culture.

Alistair and queen Cousland have only been able to weather the whole as they have because it's a game, and emotions aren't as complex as in real life. 

A Grey Warden is leading armies that have treaties with the Grey Wardens. I don't really see the issue here.

Wereparrot wrote...

Generals themselves have said that it is not a good idea for women to serve in infantry roles because of the potential emotional issues, and the potential consequences are greater than people stopping mid sword-stroke and gawping.

That sounds incredibly stupid to me. Women shouldn't serve because of emotional issues? History has shown time and again that women have been warriors and lead entire nations. Women have reigned over nations as far back as the Pharaohs and there are many cases where women have served competently in battle and as leaders of a militia, from the Native Americans to the Dahomey people of Africa (who were an entirely female militia) and even the Spartan Arcadamia lead female warriors under her command. Even the Celtic Queen Boudicca ravaged Britiain. I don't see the issue here.

[ejoslin]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

The slides you're talking about are rarely triggered.  The slides most people get don't reference him -- just the chantry looking for the ashes based on rumors regarding Eamon's recovery.

That's odd. I never really have an issue with those slides. I know the Urn epilogues are bugged if the Urn is ruined, but then Kolgrim and the Dragon Andraste are killed, because it reverts to the Chantry finding the ashes regardless of them technically being destroyed.

Are you familiar with the Bella and Kaitlyn bugs? The two women from Redcliffe who the Warden can help out. I've had problems in the past getting their epilogue slides to trigger and I found out if Kaitlyn is given the money before the battle against the undead, and if Bella is given the money without speaking to her for a second time (until the next day, after Teegan celebrates your victory) then their epilogues should show. Do you know if this is accurate?

This bug actually is not caused by the slideshow -- I'll look it up, but depending on how Kaitlyn ends up depends on how Bella ends up and the scripting comments are clear that this is the way it's supposed to be.

If Kaitlyn is made rich (give her 100 gold for the sword), then what you hear about Bella is tied to whether she went to Denerim or not.
If Bevin is given the sword, then what you hear about Bella is tied to whether she has the tavern or not.
If Kaitlyn is not made rich and Bevin is not given the sword, then what you hear about Bella is tied to whether she has the tavern or not.

I do wonder why this is, but it's noted clearly that that's the way it should be.

I will have to go through Kaityn's dialog a bit more, but the flag about her becoming rich is not set if you give her 500 gold before the battle or any after the battle.  Anyway, it may not be set there in a few more instances.  It will take some eyestrain

Edit; oh, ugh, this dialog is so confusing i can't tell where the flag is actually set.  But yeh, I'll fix it.

Modifié par ejoslin, 14 janvier 2011 - 05:59 .

[Wereparrot]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Wereparrot wrote...

I am not holding Ferelden standards in this regard to anything, I am merely presenting my expectations of Alistair as portrayed in my own culture.

Alistair and queen Cousland have only been able to weather the whole as they have because it's a game, and emotions aren't as complex as in real life. 

A Grey Warden is leading armies that have treaties with the Grey Wardens. I don't really see the issue here.

Wereparrot wrote...

Generals themselves have said that it is not a good idea for women to serve in infantry roles because of the potential emotional issues, and the potential consequences are greater than people stopping mid sword-stroke and gawping.

That sounds incredibly stupid to me. Women shouldn't serve because of emotional issues? History has shown time and again that women have been warriors and lead entire nations. Women have reigned over nations as far back as the Pharaohs and there are many cases where women have served competently in battle and as leaders of a militia, from the Native Americans to the Dahomey people of Africa (who were an entirely female militia) and even the Spartan Arcadamia lead female warriors under her command. Even the Celtic Queen Boudicca ravaged Britiain. I don't see the issue here.

Have you been reading what I've said? I am well aware of female warriors, but they were no doubt well aware of the need to restrain emotion. The whole idea rests on operational effectiveness, and you can't expect ever soldier in the army to show the same levels of self-restraint.

Modifié par Wereparrot, 14 janvier 2011 - 05:59 .