969 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

I guess the only way I'm not disgusted is if he's feed to the Archedemon. All those lives he ruined with his obsession with an old war. Just from a refusa lto let go.

I'm not sure about that.  There may have been a succession war either way, even if say Loghain had died at Ostagar.  The only way that that could have been avoided is if Alistair had died in Ostagar, too.  Maybe with Eamon out of the picture, no bid would have been brought for Alistair and Anora would just have been confirmed as queen, but that's hard to say.

The Blight was going to happen either way, too.  Even if they had won at Ostagar, it would likely have been with high losses and we know that Archie was off collecting more darkspawn elsewhere.

If Loghain is culpable for something, I would say it's poisoning Eamon and setting off that chain of events, and the terror tactics he uses in the Bannorn.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...
And Dr. Archer has Loghain's voice....how could you even touch it?! 

Loghain's voice is fine when he's not ranting about he greater good-oh wait! Yes I can pistol whip him! Thank you for that! Now I'm finally going to force myself to finish Overlord!

[Persephone]

Addai67 wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Hanz54321 wrote...

Um . . .  I have to say that Loghain threw himself under the bus.  The chain of events starting at Ostagar became more and more distasteful and tyranical.

Sure.  And if all that is true, she should support the Warden unconditionally, as she also promises to do if you question her request to rescue her out of Howe's estate.  But she doesn't do so if her own political ambitions are at stake.  Hence, she is just as big a political animal as Eamon.  I would say moreso

I can think of no queen/ruler who'd happily be supplanted and support those who want to replace her with an untrained, inexperienced boy who doesn't even want to be king. Neither can I think of a daughter who'll happily support those who tell her not only the above but that they also plan to kill her father.

(husband)

I think people objection to Anora is based on her single mindedness about it.   Folks like Eamon, while they have their faults will support your character even if they don't get their way because they recognize that their still is a common good in doing so to defeat the Blight, end the Civil way etc.

Anora help however is predicated only getting the position as Queen Regnant.   While some say "the power was her's" etc. that not really true.   (We've already had dozens of discussing about the difference between consort and Regnant  monarchs).

Anora was trained and groomed to rule and naturally expected too.   But that wasn't the only option available.   There were other obvious options that the game doesn't give you for the sake of drama.   Here's a good example,, if Anora sensed she was going to loose the Landsmeet, otherwise not have enough leverage to be queen rather than vow to never except Allistair, she could have brokered a deal to have Gwarn transfered to her and maybe even be made a chancellor.   That would have given her plenty of power and wealth.    But Anora is not one to accept second place.....

Good points, I agree. While I admire her guts, she definitely was unreasonable in the end. But that was, as you said, to make the whole thing more fatalistic & dramatic.

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...
And Dr. Archer has Loghain's voice....how could you even touch it?! 

Loghain's voice is fine when he's not ranting about he greater good-oh wait! Yes I can pistol whip him! Thank you for that! Now I'm finally going to force myself to finish Overlord!

Oh, I enjoyed that pistol-whip, I have to admit. :happy:

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

I'm not sure about that.  There may have been a succession war either way, even if say Loghain had died at Ostagar.  The only way that that could have been avoided is if Alistair had died in Ostagar, too.  Maybe with Eamon out of the picture, no bid would have been brought for Alistair and Anora would just have been confirmed as queen, but that's hard to say.

The Blight was going to happen either way, too.  Even if they had won at Ostagar, it would likely have been with high losses and we know that Archie was off collecting more darkspawn elsewhere.

If Loghain is culpable for something, I would say it's poisoning Eamon and setting off that chain of events, and the terror tactics he uses in the Bannorn.

I know the blight still would've happened but those elves wouldn't have become slaves and those people at Redcliffe wouldn't have died due to Zombie attacks. Some of the Bannorn would've been spared as well and the blight would've been able to end sooner because everyone wouldn't have been aruging over who owned the house while it burned around them.

They might have been able to get to refugees in areas like Lothering quicker and the like. A lot of lives could've been spared if not for all the infighting.

...Or they might've all fell at Ostagar.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Addai67 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

falloutseriesfan wrote...

 Uhhh....  Why all the hate for Eamon? 

Because Eamon planning to help Alistair become a good and strong king automatically means he's is a power-grabbing puppetmaster.

Or something.

(husband)

But Eamon is two faced, he is so in a very amiable way but nevetheless it is true.

Here's on example.    If you are a Cousland male and happen to hint that you are thinking about courting the queen, he talks about how it "wouldn't be proper for her to marry so soon after her last marriage".

If you however mention the same thing but with Alistair he seems to like the idea at saying something like it wasn't his first choice but it would be an ideal strategy to gain support.(he of course later seems to get cold feet regarding this option)

Anyway its obvious that he is just trying to subtely steer the player character in the right direction.   If he thought this was a universal faux pas why not mention it when Allistair marriage option is presented?

Because he might well think it's improper for Anora to remarry so quickly in either case, but he *wants* a Theirin on the throne. If the PC proposes Anora+Alistair as the best compromise to gain the most support in the Landsmeet rather than Alistair solo, then he will go along with it and (as you noted) state his reservations.

But a Cousland king isn't a Theirin king, basically. Eamon made it clear from the start what his priorities are, so of course he's not going to be ecstatic over a solution that isn't the one he wants. That doesn't make him a two-faced manipulative bastard--it means he's sticking to what he said he set out to do, ie. put Alistair on the throne.

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I'm not sure about that.  There may have been a succession war either way, even if say Loghain had died at Ostagar.  The only way that that could have been avoided is if Alistair had died in Ostagar, too.  Maybe with Eamon out of the picture, no bid would have been brought for Alistair and Anora would just have been confirmed as queen, but that's hard to say.

The Blight was going to happen either way, too.  Even if they had won at Ostagar, it would likely have been with high losses and we know that Archie was off collecting more darkspawn elsewhere.

If Loghain is culpable for something, I would say it's poisoning Eamon and setting off that chain of events, and the terror tactics he uses in the Bannorn.

I know the blight still would've happened but those elves wouldn't have become slaves and those people at Redcliffe wouldn't have died due to Zombie attacks. Some of the Bannorn would've been spared as well and the blight would've been able to end sooner because everyone wouldn't have been aruging over who owned the house while it burned around them.

They might have been able to get to refugees in areas like Lothering quicker and the like. A lot of lives could've been spared if not for all the infighting.

...Or they might've all fell at Ostagar.

Right, I forgot about the slavers.  That's a definite tick on the bad karma side.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

Oh, I enjoyed that pistol-whip, I have to admit. :happy:

Now he's someone I wanted to kill. How he could do that to poor David.

And I <3 how enraged Meer sounded. Sexy!

Too bad he's my PC.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 novembre 2010 - 08:12 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...

Oh, I enjoyed that pistol-whip, I have to admit. :happy:

Now he's someone I wanted to kill. How he could do that to poor David.

I was horrified when David was revealed. Utterly horrified. Even my ultra Renegade Sheps would never leave him behind. And when TIM sends that email about "understanding my decision, yet it threw back their efforts to understand the Geth...blabla...." I wanted to scratch those demon eyes right out!

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

Right, I forgot about the slavers.  That's a definite tick on the bad karma side.

I actually think the slavery was the straw that broke the camel's back for me personally. It's not as bad as most of the things he's don to be sure but I have some rather rigid personal views on slavery and trying to enslave someone is one of my beserk buttons .

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...
I was horrified when David was revealed. Utterly horrified. Even my ultra Renegade Sheps would never leave him behind. And when TIM sends that email about "understanding my decision, yet it threw back their efforts to understand the Geth...blabla...." I wanted to scratch those demon eyes right out!

Yeah that made me go. :crying:

Honestly if I coud've shot that bastard! 

And honestly was holding his eyes open like that necessary? And the endless chanting. It was like he was doing that just to torture him. I cheered when Paragon Shepard chewed that bastard out. And TIM. Urgh. I could shoot him too.

Ah..David.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 novembre 2010 - 08:18 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Right, I forgot about the slavers.  That's a definite tick on the bad karma side.

I actually think the slavery was the straw that broke the camel's back for me personally. It's not as bad as most of the things he's don to be sure but I have some rather rigid personal views on slavery and trying to enslave someone is one of my beserk buttons .

Strangely enough, given that I admire many historical greats who either had slaves themselves or endorsed slavery (Caesar, Elizabeth I.), it wasn't that....important to me in the end. Don't think that I endorse slavery, I do not. But would I stop admiring Elizabeth I. for allowing slave trading? No.

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...
I was horrified when David was revealed. Utterly horrified. Even my ultra Renegade Sheps would never leave him behind. And when TIM sends that email about "understanding my decision, yet it threw back their efforts to understand the Geth...blabla...." I wanted to scratch those demon eyes right out!

Yeah that made me go. :crying:

Honestly if I coud've shot that bastard! 

And honestly was holding his eyes open like that necessary? And the endless chanting.

Ah..David.

You said that Marc Meer sounded brilliantly enraged there? I only ever finished it with Fem Shep because Hale pawns Meer IMO. Will have to whip out my dusty John Shepard Save and play it again. Oooooooor...do you have a YT Link?

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...

Strangely enough, given that I admire many historical greats who either had slaves themselves or endorsed slavery (Caesar, Elizabeth I.), it wasn't that....important to me in the end. Don't think that I endorse slavery, I do not. But would I stop admiring Elizabeth I. for allowing slave trading? No.

Oh I understand that completely. It was necessary to an extent back then. It's just one of my personal beserk buttons. I'll kill a slaver and let a murderer go free. I'm just weird.

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...


You said that Marc Meer sounded brilliantly enraged there? I only ever finished it with Fem Shep because Hale pawns Meer IMO. Will have to whip out my dusty John Shepard Save and play it again. Oooooooor...do you have a YT Link?

Ah. I hate Hale's voice. Hate. Hate. Hate. She always sounds pissed and since I play mostly paragons it just doesn't mesh. Though it is a YMMV sort of thing. That's one reason I don't like VO. I rarely like female's VO and I think because it's not like my voice so I get upset. 

Here if you want to listen.

Better Quality

It all seemed harmless.

Worst point: That project if you have Legion is pretty much worthless.

And yeah...it sounds just like Loghain.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 novembre 2010 - 08:29 .

[Addai]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

falloutseriesfan wrote...

 Uhhh....  Why all the hate for Eamon? 

Because Eamon planning to help Alistair become a good and strong king automatically means he's is a power-grabbing puppetmaster.

Or something.

(husband)

But Eamon is two faced, he is so in a very amiable way but nevetheless it is true.

Here's on example.    If you are a Cousland male and happen to hint that you are thinking about courting the queen, he talks about how it "wouldn't be proper for her to marry so soon after her last marriage".

If you however mention the same thing but with Alistair he seems to like the idea at saying something like it wasn't his first choice but it would be an ideal strategy to gain support.(he of course later seems to get cold feet regarding this option)

Anyway its obvious that he is just trying to subtely steer the player character in the right direction.   If he thought this was a universal faux pas why not mention it when Allistair marriage option is presented?

Because he might well think it's improper for Anora to remarry so quickly in either case, but he *wants* a Theirin on the throne. If the PC proposes Anora+Alistair as the best compromise to gain the most support in the Landsmeet rather than Alistair solo, then he will go along with it and (as you noted) state his reservations.

But a Cousland king isn't a Theirin king, basically. Eamon made it clear from the start what his priorities are, so of course he's not going to be ecstatic over a solution that isn't the one he wants. That doesn't make him a two-faced manipulative bastard--it means he's sticking to what he said he set out to do, ie. put Alistair on the throne.

(husband)

and that just brings up the complaint I raised in the Loghain is deepest character Evah thread.

How relentlessly biased he is.

(hypothetical situation)

If given a choice between a Cousland that had won a Nobel prize, been voted "Man of the Year" by Thedas magazine, received the Fereldan medal of honor and dozens of the other highest honors.

and the last Therin, who is a drooling idiot, with an IQ of 30, who can only live by receiving care from an assisted living program....


Eamon would choose the Therin.   The lessons of Cailan former rule don't seem to factor at all when Eamon talks about "The lessons of history".    Eamon wants to do everything to prop up the Therin myth, ignoring that even Callahad would not have met his standards if he had lived in that day...

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 08:30 .

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...


You said that Marc Meer sounded brilliantly enraged there? I only ever finished it with Fem Shep because Hale pawns Meer IMO. Will have to whip out my dusty John Shepard Save and play it again. Oooooooor...do you have a YT Link?

Ah. I hate Hale's voice. Hate. Hate. Hate. She always sounds pissed and since I play mostly paragons it just doesn't mesh. Though it is a YMMV sort of thing. That's one reason I don't like VO. I rarely like female's VO and I think because it's not like my voice so I get upset. 

Here if you want to listen.

It all seemed harmless.

Oh, I adore Jennifer Hale. Esp. with Thane. Ah.

*Listening* WOW, Meer is actually giving me CHILLS here. "MINUS the torture!" Damn........ And that's why TIM will never get the Collector Base. Oh...David....

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote...
Oh, I adore Jennifer Hale. Esp. with Thane. Ah.

*Listening* WOW, Meer is actually giving me CHILLS here. "MINUS the torture!" Damn........ And that's why TIM will never get the Collector Base. Oh...David....

Ah the Thane Romance. I wish they had kept it a s/s romance so I could've enjoyed it too.
Yes one of my favorite scenes eva! He's sounds sexy.
Gah. TIM. Urgh. Being forced to work with him made me feel dirty. And all of his "oh they revolted! It's not like I only run a small number of cells at one time! Totally not! I'm completely innocent!"
Gah. I wanted to put my boot in his jaw. Sick bastard.
As the Those Minerals goes: "Even though the brother brought me back from the dead, I feel compelled to put one in the back of his head ha-ha!"
I hope he tries to do something to Oriana. Watching him get beat down by Miranda would be epic.
My whole slavery hangup is why I can't side with the Legion in New Vegas.

Anyways ontopic: (for once) Eamon ugh. Eamon's a manipulative old coot. He's an honest manipulative old coot but still.

Placing poor Alistair on the throne. *huggles Alistair* Don't worry I'll protect you from old man with ugly beard.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 novembre 2010 - 08:48 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Addai67 wrote...

(husband)

and that just brings up the complaint I raised in the Loghain is deepest character Evah thread.

How relentlessly biased he is.

(hypothetical situation)

If given a choice between a Cousland that had won a Nobel prize, been voted "Man of the Year" by Thedas magazine, received the Fereldan medal of honor and dozens of the other highest honors.

and the last Therin, who is a drooling idiot, with an IQ of 30, who can only live by receiving care from an assisted living program....


Eamon would choose the Therin.   The lessons of Cailan former rule don't seem to factor at all when Eamon talks about "The lessons of history".    Eamon wants to do everything to prop up the Therin myth, ignoring that even Callahad would not have met his standards if he had lived in that day...

Seriously, I can't speak for what Eamon would do if Alistair was a bonafide IDIOT, but I do like to give him some credit. One of the reasons he claims to back Alistair is that he believes the guy would be a good king with some support and training. Bob Cousland might be a more capable candidate by the time of the Landsmeet, but Eamon believes Alistair has what it takes (which proves right in certain endgames).

If Alistair was an actual moron would Eamon still back him? You say yes, I don't know, but I like to think not since I believe Eamon has more sense and actually wants to benefit Ferelden in the long run (though preferably with Theirin blood). So I suppose we will have to disagree on Eamon's priorities there

[Ryzaki]

How intelligent is Alistair supposed to be anyways? I know he's not an idiot but nothing leads to believe that he's overly smart either.

[Persephone]

Ryzaki wrote...

Persephone wrote...
Oh, I adore Jennifer Hale. Esp. with Thane. Ah.

*Listening* WOW, Meer is actually giving me CHILLS here. "MINUS the torture!" Damn........ And that's why TIM will never get the Collector Base. Oh...David....

Anyways ontopic: (for once) Eamon ugh. Eamon's a manipulative old coot. He's an honest manipulative old coot but still.

Placing poor Alistair on the throne. *huggles Alistair* Don't worry I'll protect you from old man with ugly beard.

Yup. My latest City Elf let Anora have the throne & went back to Grey Wardening with Alistair.

[Addai]

QUOTE
Because he might well think it's improper for Anora to remarry so quickly in either case, but he *wants* a Theirin on the throne. If the PC proposes Anora+Alistair as the best compromise to gain the most support in the Landsmeet rather than Alistair solo, then he will go along with it and (as you noted) state his reservations.

But a Cousland king isn't a Theirin king, basically. Eamon made it clear from the start what his priorities are, so of course he's not going to be ecstatic over a solution that isn't the one he wants. That doesn't make him a two-faced manipulative bastard--it means he's sticking to what he said he set out to do, ie. put Alistair on the throne.
QUOTE


Actually what he set out to do was simply "to stop Loghain and end the Blight".  Putting Allistair on the throne is just a means to that end it was not the stated end in itself.    He however makes it the End as time goes on based on his insistence of the necessity of the Therin line to prevent civil war etc.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 08:56 .

[Ryzaki]

Persephone wrote..

Yup. My latest City Elf let Anora have the throne & went back to Grey Wardening with Alistair.

I like the way you think. My latest CE (before I got on my anti-king Alistair crusade) let Alistair be king, marry Anora and became his mistress. I have to remake her and have them go wandering together. (Either that or let Ali commit the US). Hm...for angst factor I'll have him off himself. She'll wander of alone. Never to be seen again.

That said I'm coming around to the Anora+Hardened Alistair being the best for the country

Besides Alistair+HNF and Anora+HNM because we all know how special the PC is. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 novembre 2010 - 09:01 .