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[Addai]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

(husband)

and that just brings up the complaint I raised in the Loghain is deepest character Evah thread.

How relentlessly biased he is.

(hypothetical situation)

If given a choice between a Cousland that had won a Nobel prize, been voted "Man of the Year" by Thedas magazine, received the Fereldan medal of honor and dozens of the other highest honors.

and the last Therin, who is a drooling idiot, with an IQ of 30, who can only live by receiving care from an assisted living program....


Eamon would choose the Therin.   The lessons of Cailan former rule don't seem to factor at all when Eamon talks about "The lessons of history".    Eamon wants to do everything to prop up the Therin myth, ignoring that even Callahad would not have met his standards if he had lived in that day...

Seriously, I can't speak for what Eamon would do if Alistair was a bonafide IDIOT, but I do like to give him some credit. One of the reasons he claims to back Alistair is that he believes the guy would be a good king with some support and training. Bob Cousland might be a more capable candidate by the time of the Landsmeet, but Eamon believes Alistair has what it takes (which proves right in certain endgames).

If Alistair was an actual moron would Eamon still back him? You say yes, I don't know, but I like to think not since I believe Eamon has more sense and actually wants to benefit Ferelden in the long run (though preferably with Theirin blood). So I suppose we will have to disagree on Eamon's priorities there

(husband)

I think this totally probably based on such factors

1) the character of Cailan.   Especially before the return to Ostagar retrocon.  Although after that expansion their are some things that make it more incriminating regarding that character.

2) When you consider Allistair in light of what happened with Cailan.

3) If you play a Cousland warden and do all the good things to help Eamon his family, and Red cliff.   This goes doubly if you happened to leave Allistair in camp through most of it and through much of the other questiing.


4) the character of Maric both in game and from the books.  I don't think he is as great a king as folks say.   The biggest screw up is him not training his heir, this is criminal level neglect of both his son and the nation.


When you consider Eamon insistence based on these kind of factors, all this would suggest that Eamon believes only in lineage and not in any form of "Meritocracy"

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 09:23 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Ryzaki wrote...

How intelligent is Alistair supposed to be anyways? I know he's not an idiot but nothing leads to believe that he's overly smart either.

He's not a shining star of intellect, but IMO a lot of what's perceived by people as stupidity is just inexperience. He's been in the Chantry since age 10 and got out something like 6 months before Ostagar. Harden him and make him king and applies himself to learn about governing, so while he might not have natural smarts I don't see him as any more or less average than a normal person.

Addai67 wrote...

[/i]Actually what he set out to do was
simply "to stop Loghain and end the Blight".  Putting Allistair on the
throne is just a means to that end it was not the stated end in
itself.    He however makes it the End as time goes on based on his
insistence of the necessity of the Therin line to prevent civil war etc.

I had to rewatch that Eamon bit again to refresh my memory, and you're quite right. Eamon champions Alistair because Alistair has a stronger tie to the throne than Anora, and his royal blood means people will have a harder time seeing him as an opportunist siezing power (as Eamon or Teagan or even a HN).

It's possible at that point he believes Anora is on Loghain's side and won't turn against him.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Addai67 wrote...

(husband)

I think this totally probably based on such factors

1) the character of Cailan.   Especially before the return to Ostagar retrocon.  Although after that expansion their are some things that make it more incriminating regarding that character.

2) When you consider Allistair in light of what happened with Cailan.

3) If you play a Cousland warden and do all the good things to help Eamon his family, and Red cliff.   This goes doubly if you happened to leave Allistair in camp through most of it and through much of the other questiing.


All this would suggest that Eamon believes only in lineage and not in any form of "Meritocracy"

(Just a warning in case I say/have said something wrong and related, I haven't played RtO so my knowledge of the DLC is limited to the wiki.)

Having just replayed the first Eamon cinematic, it looks like the first priority was getting a stronger contender to the throne than Anora (presuming she would side with Loghain, perhaps). The Guerrins and Couslands trying to take the throne could hurt their cause at the Landsmeet and turn the Bannorn against them if they sniff opportunists. Alistair has a (convienient to be sure) blood tie.

Eamon might be wrong about the Landsmeet siding against you if you go for the crown, but you still need Anora's help to pull that off. Plus, while Eamon isn't happy with the idea of losing the Theirin bloodline, it's not like he attacks you during the Landsmeet to express his displeasure.

[Addai]

(husband)

I don't think Eamon is a "bad guy". He's probably the closest thing to a "lawful good" character in the game. Eamon I just think is more then just philanthropic. In some ways his motivations probably weren't that much different then my cousland. They are trying to do the right thing but also are looking to better themselves at the same time (because "he's paid his dues"). I think Eamon though is probably less likely to admit up to it though.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 09:32 .

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Maybe. I'm not convinced that Eamon was ever trying to grab something for himself, personally, and it's only circumstance that paves the way for him to be (in some cases) chancellor. But I tend to be an optimist.

[Elhanan]

Based on multiple opinions, if you really dislike this guy, save his wife....

[sylvanaerie]

Elhanan wrote...

Based on multiple opinions, if you really dislike this guy, save his wife....

Thanks for the early morning Lulz!

[Stazro]

I don't think we can hold against Eamon that conserving the Theirin-Line is so important to him. In a medieval feudal world, it's close to a guarantee for instability if a king or queen has no legitimation to the throne, regardless wether he's good at his job or not.



However, at first it seemed obvious to me that the reason for Eamon wanting Alistair to be king so badly, was in part the influence over the crown he would gain. After I learned how enthusiastic he reacted, when I told him I persuaded Alistair and Anora to marry, I have to revise that, though.

It would greatly lessen Eamon's grip on the country, because Anora would be the one to actually reign and she's no one to be told what to do, but still Eamon recognizes that it's the best solution.

[Sarah1281]

Besides Alistair+HNF and Anora+HNM because we all know how special the PC is.

Regardless of how people feel that the game forces you to be a Mary Sue, there's really no evidence that having a Cousland consort makes everything better.

He's not a shining star of intellect, but IMO a lot of what's perceived by people as stupidity is just inexperience. He's been in the Chantry since age 10 and got out something like 6 months before Ostagar. Harden him and make him king and applies himself to learn about governing, so while he might not have natural smarts I don't see him as any more or less average than a normal person.

I would really prefer my leaders to be more intelligent than the average person on the street and I get that vibe from Anora which is one of the reasons why, except for that game I did the obligatory Queen Cousland, I always put her on the throne with Alistair.

[Addai]

Stazro wrote...

I don't think we can hold against Eamon that conserving the Theirin-Line is so important to him. In a medieval feudal world, it's close to a guarantee for instability if a king or queen has no legitimation to the throne, regardless wether he's good at his job or not.

However, at first it seemed obvious to me that the reason for Eamon wanting Alistair to be king so badly, was in part the influence over the crown he would gain. After I learned how enthusiastic he reacted, when I told him I persuaded Alistair and Anora to marry, I have to revise that, though.
It would greatly lessen Eamon's grip on the country, because Anora would be the one to actually reign and she's no one to be told what to do, but still Eamon recognizes that it's the best solution.

(Husband)

Yes but.....

1) Feudal societies tend to have an official idealogy that reinforces this view.   Such as the Divine Right of Kings and the Chain of being.   Which is something Ferelden doesn't have.

2) Dynasties tend to have a definite shelf life.   They usually only last a few centuries.   Based on that Theirin line has already lived a ripe old age.

3) Weak leaders like Cailan in the Good Ole Days often would find themselves murdered by more ambitious and intelligent underlings who would covet their office.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:11 .

[Addai]

Not to cause confusion here, my husband and I share an account, this is the feminine side of Addai67 posting. Ah, the complications of DRM. Anyway...

My dear mate is right that Ferelden does not have a fully developed sense of divine right of kings etc., though there is a certain amount of that. Generally, though, it's a Germanic type of system where the top dog stays the top dog only if he can deliver militarily. Brandel was blamed for the loss to Orlais, so people didn't like him, but Moira turned things around and Maric sealed the deal, cementing the Theirin legend. If Cailan would have defeated the Blight, he'd have been hailed as a great king, too. It is the defeat of the Blight that secures the throne of whomever the Warden appoints, not Theirin blood or Anora's supposed capabilities.

However, the demise of the Calenhad dynasty is going to have negative consequences no matter what. There is no clear successor that rises to that level of prestige. Anora's not going to have an heir, so she can borrow her father's legend and the Theirin mantle, but after that it's anybody's game. Perfect opportunity for Orlais, or the Qunari...

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:32 .

[Rykoth]

I skipped most of this thread because lunch is almost ready.

Anyway.

People need to look at characters from a medieval, feudal, and fantays context, and not from a modern day society's viewpoint. If you go by modern day's standards, I think every single character would end up in prison/on death row for some crime or another. Back in a medieval society, oddly enough, things were a bit more open ended when it came to politics and such, though punishments were far more severe.

Eamon, is he obsessed with a royal bloodline? Yes. But then again, as someone mentioned - it is a medieval time period.

Is he power hungry? Considering he relinquishes power to Teagan, I'd say no. He could very easily be Alistair's Chancellor, AND the Arl of Redcliffe, but he chooses not to. He loves Fereldan. He and Loghain are not so different in that.

The difference between Eamon and Loghain is simple: Loghain is the Hero of Fereldan long before the Warden comes along. What happens when you become a hero? You get an ego, and are regarded as more important.

They are both patriots. Both of them are commoners. Both of them have military experience. Both of them have loyalty to the bloodline - specifically, Mairic in Loghain's case. The difference is that it was Loghain who took a harsher view of Orlais, and did what he did, and experienced what he experienced that made him the General, and the Hero of Fereldan. I've not read the Calling or the Stolen Throne, so I'm not sure if I'm completely right on my thoughts here, but this is - what I think I know from playing this game over and over.

In essence, in everything Loghain/Eamon are identical, up to the point where one is the General and Regent, and the other is an Arl. So is Eamon a "bad guy?" Not entirely. Just like he's not entirely a "good guy." Same goes with Loghain. Me? I hate Loghain (he's an awesome character) for what he's done. But would Eamon have done much differently? Maybe. Maybe not. We'll never know. Eamon had a different experience, and IMO, that shows more of his honorable traits then anything, yet some of his "less then optimal" traits also show, whereas Loghain, you see a blanket of madness, with lighter shades mixed in. (if anything, I execute him for his "hush Anora" line)

[Addai]

Have to point out also, Eamon is not a commoner. Guerrin is as blue blood as it gets in Ferelden. All in all I think Eamon is a pretty good representative of his family line and of true nobility. He's not without faults but who is, and where would the story be without those.

[Sarah1281]

Is he power hungry? Considering he relinquishes power to Teagan, I'd say no. He could very easily be Alistair's Chancellor, AND the Arl of Redcliffe, but he chooses not to.

He appoints Teagan to rule Redcliffe in his name initially and eventually decides to abdicate because it's not like he ever really goes back there anyway (or so the post-coronation dialogue implies).

Both of them are commoners. Both of them have military experience.

The hell they're both commoners. Eamon's sister Rowan had an arranged marraige with Maric that her father, an Arl, and his mother, a queen, arranged. And what great military experience is Eamon supposed to have? He had been sent abroad the minute his father really got involved with the rebellion and they were more-or-less at peace after that.

You can point to all sorts of superficial similarities (They're both men, they both have long hair, they're both human, they're both from Ferelden, they both have held a title for decades) but in the end I really don't think Eamon and Loghain are all that similar.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 29 novembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[Addai]

I would say there are similarities in that all of the rebellion generation lost a great deal, and those that survived have a lot of grit and also a lot of issues. Eamon probably didn't fight much, but being parted from his family at a young age and never seeing his father again, then losing Rowan too, is a lot of hardship. Like Loghain, he is haunted by the war in his own way, since his greatest fear is Ferelden not being able to come together. It was the Theirin banner that united the rebellion, after all. So when he says "we did not fight the Orlesians just to lose our royal line", I'm sure that those are the images he's calling up. It's what Rowan gave up her love and her independence for, and Eamon is a Guerrin, too- duty first. That is very much like Loghain.

[Addai]

Glaucon wrote...

And the only battle Howe appears to have been involved in resulted in only 50 survivors? Not an indicator of tactical awareness.

My lore isn't on par but that is my understanding of his military experience.

What is this harping on military experience?  Not picking on you, but I think the numerous references to that are a bit overdone.  Judging by the forum, a person would have to be in a continuous state of war for most of their lifetime in order to qualify as worthy. 

Howe was a hero for opposing his father and turning Amaranthine back over to the rebels.  White River was the battle where Bryce Cousland distinguished himself, too, the only one he's noted for fighting in though surely both of them fought in others afterward.  The fact that these men survived at all points to their skill as well as their luck.

[Wulfram]

Glaucon wrote...

I think Eamon and Loghain are different in one important way: Loghain is direct and, for the most part, open with his intentions whereas Eamon is underhanded and manipulative with his.  I intend to subvert Eamon at every opportunity from here on in.  But like you say, it's a personal thing for most of us. 

Loghain is hardly open, though I suppose his reliance on murder and torture may qualify him as direct. 

The only reason to describe Eamon as underhanded and manipulative is the total absence of evidence of anything except a willingness to serve his country.

[Sarah1281]

Loghain LIED to the King about his intentions at Ostagar. He tried to convince Cailan not to fight, but at no point did he say, "Hey, if you choose to fight I'm pullin up stakes and splitting on these Wardens."

That would be because while Loghain did have an exit strategy in place, his intentions were not to leave no matter what and he did not actually decide he was not fighting until he saw the beacon lit.

Loghain LIED to the entire country when he said the Wardens betrayed Cailan and got themselves killed at Ostagar.

Given how late you were with the beacon, for all we know he really thought that. Maybe not the most reasonable conclusion to come to given how the field had been swarmed but he thinks the Wardens are an Orlesian order and he's not particularly reasonable about them.

Loghain SENT A SPY to poison Eamon pre-emptively because he knew how Ostagar was going to turn out. Then he LIED about it at the Landsmeet saying if he wanted to kill Eamon he would've sent hisown soldiers.

No, he sent Jowan to poison Eamon because once Ostagar was over he was planning on confronting Cailan and he knew Eamon would be a strong ally. Although yes, he does lie about it at the Landsmeet. I don't blame him for that because admitting to it then would have been the height of stupidity.