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[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

What is this harping on military experience?  Not picking on you, but I think the numerous references to that are a bit overdone.  Judging by the forum, a person would have to be in a continuous state of war for most of their lifetime in order to qualify as worthy. 

I wouldn't go that far.  But a General who fought and instituted strategy and tactics in a war lasting 10 years whilst out-maned and out-geared and winning is considered much more seasoned than a leader who only led a couple of battles.

So yeah - I weigh military experience heavily when discussing DA.

Although, political mastery is just as important.  Example: it is politics that led Loghain to make the decisions he made, and it ended up hamstringing his efforts against the Blight until it undid him entirely at the Landsmeet.  Loghain is a great general, but a crappy politician.

Ok, but we're not really comparing Eamon and Loghain as generals, are we?  Rather as political figures.  My point is that Eamon did come through the rebellion and reconstruction with stature that is not entirely undeserved.  He was a young boy in the war, but like all the rebel generation, he took good away from his experiences as well as issues.

[Sarah1281]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Sarah: so waitaminute . . . if he was planning on confronting Cailan after Ostagar then why would he plan on staying and fighting? That's pretty thin.

I think he was planning on keeping Cailan out of the battle and betraying the Wardens from the start. When Cailan protested he would have Cailan taken into custody and declared unfit to rule. Then, yes, he would need Eamon out of the way so he could make his case to the Bannorn.

But to imply that he was totally on board at Ostagar until the beacon didn't get lit . . . "Yes, Cailan. It will be a glorious moment for everyone."

Ostagar doesn't always make the most sense but Word of God (which I swear by but which not everyone accepts) states that Eamon was poisoned because Loghain wanted to confront Cailan after Ostagar. It states that Loghain wanted his men at the beacon so that if he needed to, he could retreat without it looking like he was deserting but that the actual decision had not been made until he saw the beacon. I'm not sure how Loghain planned on letting the people at the beacon know whether or not he wanted the beacon lit because he planned on charging but if he could use the mages he might have found a way.

[Wulfram]

If we're going to nominate random people as evil puppetteers, I think Taegan is a much better candidate.



After all it's he who, without any evidence, leaps to the conclusion that the Hero of Ferelden is lieing about Ostagar, and insinuates that he may have betrayed the King.



Having incited a civil war, perhaps he was going for the throne himself, but the unexpected success of the Warden in the wild goose chase after the Ashes meant that he had to work through his brother. Still, it is clear that he is able to exercise a lot of control over Eamon's actions - it is he who put Eamon on the path to oppose Loghain, though likely he would have preferred that Eamon put forward the Guerrin claim to the throne - so he would still have hoped to run the Kingdom by proxy.



There's also his stealing of the credit for the defence of Redcliffe, not to mention his manipulative flirting with the young female warden.

[Sarah1281]

Glaucon wrote...

It may not have been possible to win the battle of Ostegar given the enemy disposition, but, and I firmly believe this, the king could have been rescued.

At the cost of half of the army, maybe. If it hadn't been for the civil war Loghain didn't anticipate, I think any part of the army would not have been a fair trade for Cailan, of all people.

[Sarah1281]

There's also his stealing of the credit for the defence of Redcliffe, not to mention his manipulative flirting with the young female warden.

Flirting the female Warden starts and he's the one who was in charge of everything, you just ran around and helped with the defences. You...ran errands and killed most of the undead. Besides, Teagan doesn't actually give a damn about politics.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

If we're going to nominate random people as evil puppetteers, I think Taegan is a much better candidate.

After all it's he who, without any evidence, leaps to the conclusion that the Hero of Ferelden is lieing about Ostagar, and insinuates that he may have betrayed the King.

Having incited a civil war, perhaps he was going for the throne himself, but the unexpected success of the Warden in the wild goose chase after the Ashes meant that he had to work through his brother. Still, it is clear that he is able to exercise a lot of control over Eamon's actions - it is he who put Eamon on the path to oppose Loghain, though likely he would have preferred that Eamon put forward the Guerrin claim to the throne - so he would still have hoped to run the Kingdom by proxy.

There's also his stealing of the credit for the defence of Redcliffe, not to mention his manipulative flirting with the young female warden.

Oh boy.  The wrath of Teagan fangirls is strong, my friend... raise your heat shields.

I am not one of those, but have to completely disagree.  Teagan was standing up for the traditional rights of the freeholders which did in fact help protect the country from tyrants.  He puts 2 and 2 together, Loghain leaving the field in Ostagar then marching straight to Denerim and demanding unconditional loyalty, and it's not a great leap to see that as a planned seizure of power.  In any case, he's standing up for the traditional rights of Fereldans, whereas Loghain is on emergency war footing and is willing to cut those corners.  It depends on your perspective which one has the right of it.  There is also no indication whatsoever that Teagan has ambitions for Redcliffe or any other political post.  His character notes even say that he's not political.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 07:41 .

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Regardless of how people feel that the game forces you to be a Mary Sue, there's really no evidence that having a Cousland consort makes everything better.

Actually with the HNM+Anora it's said that there'd be a golden age if they didn't fight for the throne. How exactly is that not making everything better?

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 novembre 2010 - 07:41 .

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Regardless of how people feel that the game forces you to be a Mary Sue, there's really no evidence that having a Cousland consort makes everything better.

Actually with the HNM+Anora it's said that there'd be a golden age if they didn't fight for the throne. How exactly is that not making everything better?

Because it doesn't say that there would, without a doubt, be a golden age. It says:

<FirstName/> married Queen Anora in a lavish ceremony six months after her coronation, becoming the prince-consort of Ferelden. Many said that if the two did not end up vying for control of the throne, they would usher in a new golden age not seen since King Calenhad first united the barbarian tribes.

These people suspecting that there will be a golden age (and not long into the marriage, either, if the fact that they don't know if a power struggle will take place) are not psychic and they are just speculating.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Regardless of how people feel that the game forces you to be a Mary Sue, there's really no evidence that having a Cousland consort makes everything better.

Actually with the HNM+Anora it's said that there'd be a golden age if they didn't fight for the throne. How exactly is that not making everything better?

Because it doesn't say that there would, without a doubt, be a golden age. It says:

married Queen Anora in a lavish ceremony six months after her coronation, becoming the prince-consort of Ferelden. Many said that if the two did not end up vying for control of the throne, they would usher in a new golden age not seen since King Calenhad first united the barbarian tribes.

These people suspecting that there will be a golden age (and not long into the marriage, either, if the fact that they don't know if a power struggle will take place) are not psychic and they are just speculating.

Yeah and you get no such speculation anywhere else.

Kind of like how the PC is getting the terynir in the HN origin.

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...
Sarah: So the Word of Gawd confirms what I'm saying - Loghain never had any intention of fighting. He was decietful in leading everyone to believe he was going to fight but planned to use the Beacon as a convenient excuse.

No, not quite what Gaider said.  It's that Loghain had contingency plans, as a good general would.  He wanted the battle won before he got to the field, so he was setting things in place, but Gaider said he did not plan to leave Cailan to die.

Nevertheless I agree with you that Loghain is playing the political game and that makes liars and manipulators of all.  I imagine when the poster said Loghain is more direct than Eamon, that was a reference to him saying straight up, "I'm in charge now, sod those of you who don't like it."

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Regardless of how people feel that the game forces you to be a Mary Sue, there's really no evidence that having a Cousland consort makes everything better.

Actually with the HNM+Anora it's said that there'd be a golden age if they didn't fight for the throne. How exactly is that not making everything better?

Because it doesn't say that there would, without a doubt, be a golden age. It says:

married Queen Anora in a lavish ceremony six months after her coronation, becoming the prince-consort of Ferelden. Many said that if the two did not end up vying for control of the throne, they would usher in a new golden age not seen since King Calenhad first united the barbarian tribes.

These people suspecting that there will be a golden age (and not long into the marriage, either, if the fact that they don't know if a power struggle will take place) are not psychic and they are just speculating.

Yeah and you get no such speculation anywhere else.

Kind of like how the PC is getting the terynir in the HN origin.

The people could claim that unhardened Alistair had to be bringing in a golden age because he's a Theirin and helped end the Blight but that doesn't make it so. The people really DON'T have to get this speculation from somewhere, it's really early in the reign when it occurs and I think is more about Anora than the PC as Alistair + PC doesn't get a rumored golden age. Alistair + Anora gets the people to declare that, without a doubt, the Blight and civil war were worth it for giving them their new monarchs. I think that is really the more impressive ending.

[Wulfram]

I'm not actually accusing Teagan of anything, I'm just applying Eamon hater logic to him.

Though I do find his immediate dismissal of Loghain's version of events a little strange.

Ryzaki wrote...

Actually with the HNM+Anora it's said that there'd be a golden age if they didn't fight for the throne. How exactly is that not making everything better?

Well, as long as you don't care about the Elves - and let's face it, no one in Ferelden really does - Anora reigning alone looks like it could be called a golden age.

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote... The people could claim that unhardened Alistair had to be bringing in a golden age because he's a Theirin and helped end the Blight but that doesn't make it so. The people really DON'T have to get this speculation from somewhere, it's really early in the reign when it occurs and I think is more about Anora than the PC as Alistair + PC doesn't get a rumored golden age. Alistair + Anora gets the people to declare that, without a doubt, the Blight and civil war were worth it for giving them their new monarchs. I think that is really the more impressive ending.

No I doubt they were claiming it because of who they were but because of what was occuring. People don't just randomly go "ooh a golden age!" when things aren't improving at a rapid pace.

It's impressive but to me the HNM+Anora seems to be even more so.

[sylvanaerie]

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

If we're going to nominate random people as evil puppetteers, I think Taegan is a much better candidate.

After all it's he who, without any evidence, leaps to the conclusion that the Hero of Ferelden is lieing about Ostagar, and insinuates that he may have betrayed the King.

Having incited a civil war, perhaps he was going for the throne himself, but the unexpected success of the Warden in the wild goose chase after the Ashes meant that he had to work through his brother. Still, it is clear that he is able to exercise a lot of control over Eamon's actions - it is he who put Eamon on the path to oppose Loghain, though likely he would have preferred that Eamon put forward the Guerrin claim to the throne - so he would still have hoped to run the Kingdom by proxy.

There's also his stealing of the credit for the defence of Redcliffe, not to mention his manipulative flirting with the young female warden.

Oh boy.  The wrath of Teagan fangirls is strong, my friend... raise your heat shields.

I am not one of those, but have to completely disagree.  Teagan was standing up for the traditional rights of the freeholders which did in fact help protect the country from tyrants.  He puts 2 and 2 together, Loghain leaving the field in Ostagar then marching straight to Denerim and demanding unconditional loyalty, and it's not a great leap to see that as a planned seizure of power.  In any case, he's standing up for the traditional rights of Fereldans, whereas Loghain is on emergency war footing and is willing to cut those corners.  It depends on your perspective which one has the right of it.  There is also no indication whatsoever that Teagan has ambitions for Redcliffe or any other political post.  His character notes even say that he's not political.

Teagan fan girl here.  Thank you Addai, you pretty much said it all for me.  Teagan is the ONE truly selfless man in Ferelden, without ulterior motives. This is IN his toolset notes.   He is certainly capable but his "character flaw" is his 'lack of confidence'.  In Redcliffe he is the man in the best position to deal with the situation but he defers to the PC, lacking confidence to get the job done himself.  This is like the antithesis of ambitious backstabber!  His codex says he would go on trips to Denerim to take his nephew hunting, leaving the politics he dislikes to his brother, Eamon.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

I'm not actually accusing Teagan of anything, I'm just applying Eamon hater logic to him.

Though I do find his immediate dismissal of Loghain's version of events a little strange.

Ok I see where you're coming from.  And yes, it is a little strange.  His sarcastic, "That Cailan risked everything in the name of glory?  I don't believe it..."

Uhh, Teagy baby, you may want to re-think that.

It is perhaps family loyalty talking.  Cailan is his nephew, and Loghain crossed him, so he's dirt.  In a way it's admirable but not especially insightful.  I do sympathize with the objection to Loghain just grabbing the regency, however.