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[sylvanaerie]

Addai67 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I'm not actually accusing Teagan of anything, I'm just applying Eamon hater logic to him.

Though I do find his immediate dismissal of Loghain's version of events a little strange.

Ok I see where you're coming from.  And yes, it is a little strange.  His sarcastic, "That Cailan risked everything in the name of glory?  I don't believe it..."

Uhh, Teagy baby, you may want to re-think that.

It is perhaps family loyalty talking.  Cailan is his nephew, and Loghain crossed him, so he's dirt.  In a way it's admirable but not especially insightful.  I do sympathize with the objection to Loghain just grabbing the regency, however.

I think it is family loyalty.  And Teagan doesn't have the benefit of the BSN boards and debates and convos with the devs/writers to inform him of what other characters are thinking.

[sylvanaerie]

Come on though, you guys have to admit that's a "mustache twirling" moment when Loghain has his back to the war council and says "Yes, Cailan, glory for us all".
I saw that and just knew this could only end in tears.

[Addai]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Come on though, you guys have to admit that's a "mustache twirling" moment when Loghain has his back to the war council and says "Yes, Cailan, glory for us all".
I saw that and just knew this could only end in tears.

Yes, but only a few moments before he's saying "you risk too much, Cailan."  I'm always struck by the sincerity in his voice there.  Besides the fact that Gaider has confirmed he didn't intend for Cailan to die, I don't think he ever wanted Maric and Rowan's son to go down in flames.  Ferelden was still more important, however.

[sylvanaerie]

I don't think initially he intended for Cailan to die. I DO think he intended for the Grey Wardens to go down in flames. It's just at that mustache twirler moment, he had already cut Cailan from the equation.

I much prefer my games to be more black and white, good vs bad. So Loghain is always the villian in my tale. The AD just doesn't stir any emotion from me at all. It would be like hating on a hurricane for blowing down my house, more a force of nature.

Loghain being human and flawed is much more fun to cast in that role.

[Addai]

Hanz54321 wrote...

I guess the mustache twirling gives way to the idea that he meant to kill Cailan.  I don't think that's the case.  But Loghain's expression when he says, "Yes Cailan . . . a glorious moment for us all," reveals that he knows that he's abandoning the battle and leaving the Wardens to die.  In a way he sounds resigned to doing what he feels he must and letting Cailan die.  But he's pulling one over on everyone.

Except Gaider said that he didn't make that decision until he saw the beacon.

The cutscenes are trying to hit you over the head with a hammer, it's true, but having studied the characters far too much than a person with a job should have, I hear those words as weary and resigned that it's going to end badly, but not necessarily just for Cailan and the Wardens.  Gaider has also said that Loghain didn't expect to get out of Ostagar alive.  My read is that his impulse was to be the hero and save Maric's son from himself, but in the final moment, his promise to Maric after West Hill clicks in his mind alongside the image of those chevaliers massed at the border, and he walks away.  Grimly, not triumphantly.

[Sarah1281]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote... The people could claim that unhardened Alistair had to be bringing in a golden age because he's a Theirin and helped end the Blight but that doesn't make it so. The people really DON'T have to get this speculation from somewhere, it's really early in the reign when it occurs and I think is more about Anora than the PC as Alistair + PC doesn't get a rumored golden age. Alistair + Anora gets the people to declare that, without a doubt, the Blight and civil war were worth it for giving them their new monarchs. I think that is really the more impressive ending.

No I doubt they were claiming it because of who they were but because of what was occuring. People don't just randomly go "ooh a golden age!" when things aren't improving at a rapid pace.

It's impressive but to me the HNM+Anora seems to be even more so.

But if things were occuring that made the people able to tell that it was going to be a golden age instead of just some positive thigns occuring (which happen no matter what you do with the throne) then wouldn't they know whether or not Anora and the HNM were going to be a fighting-for-power couple or not? 

[Ryzaki]

Sarah1281 wrote...

But if things were occuring that made the people able to tell that it was going to be a golden age instead of just some positive thigns occuring (which happen no matter what you do with the throne) then wouldn't they know whether or not Anora and the HNM were going to be a fighting-for-power couple or not? 

Not necessarily. Their could've been small snippets of disagreements while the good things were happening while they compromised .

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

Except Gaider said that he didn't make that decision until he saw the beacon.

Of course, the voice over notes in the toolset say differently.

Since those VO notes appear to me to be reflected in the game, I personally follow them over Gaider's posts on the forum.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Except Gaider said that he didn't make that decision until he saw the beacon.

Of course, the voice over notes in the toolset say differently.

Since those VO notes appear to me to be reflected in the game, I personally follow them over Gaider's posts on the forum.

What do they say exactly?

I consider VO notes a source but not especially reliable.  For one thing, their intent is to coach the actor, not to establish game events.

[nos_astra]

The VO notes at the war council state that Loghain intends to betray the king. Yes, Cailan. A glorious moment for us all.

Modifié par klarabella, 29 novembre 2010 - 09:30 .

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

What do they say exactly?

The most straightforward one is
"Yes, Cailan.  A glorious moment for us all"
VO notes "Said a bit ominously.  Loghain knows that the coming battle is going to mean Cailain's death when he betrays the King"

I consider VO notes a source but not especially reliable.  For one thing, their intent is to coach the actor, not to establish game events.

For what is actually in the game - as distinct from what David Gaider might have written if he was sole author of a novel - I prefer them to posts on the forum.  After all, this is likely what the actor was trying to portray - in this case quite successfully IMO - when they were speaking the line.

[Addai]

Hm, that is a pretty big contradiction. Well Gaider does always say he's just giving his sense and it's disputable if that counts as canon. It could also be that there is some mixing from legacy where the plot was going to center on Cailan dumping Anora for Celene and there being a direct Cailan vs. Loghain dynamic.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wulfram wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

What do they say exactly?

The most straightforward one is
"Yes, Cailan.  A glorious moment for us all"
VO notes "Said a bit ominously.  Loghain knows that the coming battle is going to mean Cailain's death when he betrays the King"

I consider VO notes a source but not especially reliable.  For one thing, their intent is to coach the actor, not to establish game events.

For what is actually in the game - as distinct from what David Gaider might have written if he was sole author of a novel - I prefer them to posts on the forum.  After all, this is likely what the actor was trying to portray - in this case quite successfully IMO - when they were speaking the line.

The VO notes really aren't a good source of info. They were written well before the final game was completed, and there was alot of stuff cut from the original game. Thus, before the cuts to the plot and lore to the final game, Loghain might have been written as planning on betraying the king and abandoning him. However, since perhaps the reason for this was cut (cailan/Celene wedding) then Loghain's planned betrayal was also cut. The VO notes are a leftover from the original content.

[nos_astra]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The VO notes really aren't a good source of info. They were written well before the final game was completed, and there was alot of stuff cut from the original game. Thus, before the cuts to the plot and lore to the final game, Loghain might have been written as planning on betraying the king and abandoning him. However, since perhaps the reason for this was cut (Cailan/Celene wedding) then Loghain's planned betrayal was also cut. The VO notes are a leftover from the original content.

So is the voiceover then, Templeman's work is clearly guided by those notes.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

klarabella wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The VO notes really aren't a good source of info. They were written well before the final game was completed, and there was alot of stuff cut from the original game. Thus, before the cuts to the plot and lore to the final game, Loghain might have been written as planning on betraying the king and abandoning him. However, since perhaps the reason for this was cut (Cailan/Celene wedding) then Loghain's planned betrayal was also cut. The VO notes are a leftover from the original content.

So is the voiceover then, Templeman's work is clearly guided by those notes.

it most likely is. I've seen a few loose ends in the game that make little to no sense, unless you realize what has been cut.

[Addai]

It could well be, since VO work is done early according to the DA2 forums. His VO also implies Alistair is alive during Rowan's time and that's not true.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

It could well be, since VO work is done early according to the DA2 forums. His VO also implies Alistair is alive during Rowan's time and that's not true.

It is done early in just about any voiced game. That way, they have all the dialogue lines for original content, then can cut and paste or modify things later.

Has it been officially confirmed, then, that Fiona is Alistair's mother?