969 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

It could well be, since VO work is done early according to the DA2 forums. His VO also implies Alistair is alive during Rowan's time and that's not true.

It is done early in just about any voiced game. That way, they have all the dialogue lines for original content, then can cut and paste or modify things later.

Has it been officially confirmed, then, that Fiona is Alistair's mother?

No, but regardless, Alistair is only 20-ish and Rowan has been dead longer than that so it only makes sense given the earlier plans to have Alistair be early 30's.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Ahh...that's right. Alistair was originally slated to be much older. It also explains alot of other things, such as people saying Alistair was a potential threat to Cailain's rule, which, for a bastard, would be a concern if Alistair was older, since succession traditionally and normally passes to the eldest child.

[Sarah1281]

Alistair could still have been a threat if someone tried to prop him up as king instead of Cailan after Maric disappeared if they thought he'd be easier to control or if he seemed more competent.

[Wulfram]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

klarabella wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The VO notes really aren't a good source of info. They were written well before the final game was completed, and there was alot of stuff cut from the original game. Thus, before the cuts to the plot and lore to the final game, Loghain might have been written as planning on betraying the king and abandoning him. However, since perhaps the reason for this was cut (Cailan/Celene wedding) then Loghain's planned betrayal was also cut. The VO notes are a leftover from the original content.

So is the voiceover then, Templeman's work is clearly guided by those notes.

it most likely is. I've seen a few loose ends in the game that make little to no sense, unless you realize what has been cut.

But Loghain having planned the betrayal at Ostagar does make sense.  I would say it makes more sense, though I'm aware others would disagree.
Maybe Gaider would have wanted to cut it, but I don't think it was.  The lines remain in the game, and I don't see anything which makes them invalid.

edit:  Ferelden seems open to younger siblings inheriting.  There's the suggestion that the HN is in line for the Teyrnir.

Modifié par Wulfram, 29 novembre 2010 - 10:04 .

[Sarah1281]

Maybe Gaider would have wanted to cut it, but I don't think it was. The lines remain in the game, and I don't see anything which makes them invalid.

The line may have stayed but Loghain's motive for doing it (knowing Celene and Cailan were going to marry) is gone so it makes little sense for him to be plotting Cailan's demise.



*wonders why we can't even hate Eamon in peace without Loghain debates popping up*

[Addai]

@Wulfram, it's a valid interpretation, and the game writers like to leave things open enough for us to take things in different directions and have lots of forum scraps.

@Sarah:  Besides the "all your threads belong to Loghain" rule, it makes little sense to hate Eamon for doing what every other politically involved noble is doing.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 10:09 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wulfram wrote...
But Loghain having planned the betrayal at Ostagar does make sense.  I would say it makes more sense, though I'm aware others would disagree.
Maybe Gaider would have wanted to cut it, but I don't think it was.  The lines remain in the game, and I don't see anything which makes them invalid.

It doesn't make sense, given all the other things going on in game. Loghain had Eamon poisoned to neutralize him, not kill him. Retreating at Ostagar was Loghain's plan B, if that's what you mean by him planning to betray the king. But as the game sits now, it's pretty clear to me that Loghain was angling for something less dramatic. Like, intimidating Cailan into backing down on allowing Orlais join the battle.

Loghain out and out betraying the king and thousands of soldiers at Ostagar makes no sense as an original plan. What motive would he have, in the game, to do so? Loghain is not a politician, nor has he ever aspired to be a leader, and it's clear in game not only does he do poorly at the task,. he really is not enjoying it in the slightest. Loghain is a man who does not do things without having what he feels is a damned good reason.

And in game, we see no damned good reasons why Loghain would deliberately betray the king as Plan A. Now when you consider the cut content, it's a whole new ballgame, but since the content was cut and is not part of the game, I favor the explaination of the VO notes as being a leftover from the original set.

[Wulfram]

Sarah1281 wrote...

The line may have stayed but Loghain's motive for doing it (knowing Celene and Cailan were going to marry) is gone so it makes little sense for him to be plotting Cailan's demise.

Loghain can still think Cailan is a dangerous reckless idiot who's inviting the Chevaliers back into Ferelden without the marriage

*wonders why we can't even hate Eamon in peace without Loghain debates popping up*

"My Uncle Eamon is a man everyone thinks well of - when they remember to think of him at all"

[Addai]

The main thing that argues against it to my mind is that Loghain tries so hard to get Cailan off the front lines. If he really wanted to kill him, he would have been goading him on. Unless you think he was using reverse psychology.

[nos_astra]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Loghain had Eamon poisoned to neutralize him, not kill him.

Where in the game is this even hinted at? The game makes you believe that Eamon is dying. Without Word of God no one would ever get the impression that Eamon was not supposed to die. A desire demon is keeping him alive.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Loghain out and out betraying the king and thousands of soldiers at Ostagar makes no sense as an original plan. What motive would he have, in the game, to do so? Loghain is not a politician, nor has he ever aspired to be a leader, and it's clear in game not only does he do poorly at the task,. he really is not enjoying it in the slightest. Loghain is a man who does not do things without having what he feels is a damned good reason.

And in game, we see no damned good reasons why Loghain would deliberately betray the king as Plan A. Now when you consider the cut content, it's a whole new ballgame, but since the content was cut and is not part of the game, I favor the explaination of the VO notes as being a leftover from the original set.

Um, you actually believe the game's plot was rewritten? I doubt that.

I think, the Celene plotline was merely cut and the rest was basically left as it was. That's why Gaider feels the need to pipe up on the forums providing us with information the game is lacking.

Modifié par klarabella, 29 novembre 2010 - 10:24 .

[Sarah1281]

Where in the game is this even hinted at? The game makes you believe that Eamon is dying. Without Word of God no one would ever get the impression that Eamon was not supposed to die. A desire demon is keeping him alive.

Connor wasn't immediately possessed and I'm inclined to think that if Loghain were trying to kill Eamon, he would have given Jowan a little faster-acting.

[nos_astra]

Addai67 wrote...
The main thing that argues against it to my mind is that Loghain tries so hard to get Cailan off the front lines. If he really wanted to kill him, he would have been goading him on. Unless you think he was using reverse psychology.

I never got that he was trying so hard. I always thought he was manipulating him and getting exactly the reaction he wanted to.

Modifié par klarabella, 29 novembre 2010 - 10:27 .

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
The main thing that argues against it to my mind is that Loghain tries so hard to get Cailan off the front lines. If he really wanted to kill him, he would have been goading him on. Unless you think he was using reverse psychology.

I never got that he was trying so hard. I always thought he was manipulating him and getting exactly the reaction he wanted to.

He's arguing so strenuously in the war meeting that Cailan pulls rank, and we hear that they've been arguing about the upcoming battles for days.  Why try so hard?  He should be the one suggesting that Cailan take the vanguard and charge the horde.  Not like it would have been hard to convince him to do so.

Modifié par Addai67, 29 novembre 2010 - 10:30 .

[nos_astra]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Where in the game is this even hinted at? The game makes you believe that Eamon is dying. Without Word of God no one would ever get the impression that Eamon was not supposed to die. A desire demon is keeping him alive.

Connor wasn't immediately possessed and I'm inclined to think that if Loghain were trying to kill Eamon, he would have given Jowan a little faster-acting.

I'm not asking you for a bit of guesswork based on very frail evidence like the games totally screwed timeline. It's a game, not a book.

[nos_astra]

Addai67 wrote...
He's arguing so strenuously in the war meeting that Cailan pulls rank, and we hear that they've been arguing about the upcoming battles for days.  Why try so hard?  He should be the one suggesting that Cailan take the vanguard and charge the horde.  Not like it would have been hard to convince him to do so.

He's making one or two half-hearted comments about waiting for Eamon (!!!) and "you trust these Grey Wardens too much" or something to this extend.

[Wulfram]

Addai67 wrote...

The main thing that argues against it to
my mind is that Loghain tries so hard to get Cailan off the front lines.
If he really wanted to kill him, he would have been goading him on.
Unless you think he was using reverse psychology.

It looks better if he's seen to be trying to dissuade Cailan from fighting, and he likely does believe the battle isn't winnable - though if he really wanted to stop the battle he shouldn't have been so dismissive of Duncan's claim that this was a blight.  Plus, if Cailan starts doing what he's told again, then Loghain doesn't need him dead. 

Though really, rather more than just the front line died at Ostagar, so I don't see it would have made a great deal of difference.

Sarah1281 wrote...
Connor wasn't immediately possessed and I'm inclined to think that if Loghain were trying to kill Eamon, he would have given Jowan a little faster-acting.

Faster acting is more suspicious.  It's best if it can be written off as illness, as IIRC it is before Jowan is caught

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
He's arguing so strenuously in the war meeting that Cailan pulls rank, and we hear that they've been arguing about the upcoming battles for days.  Why try so hard?  He should be the one suggesting that Cailan take the vanguard and charge the horde.  Not like it would have been hard to convince him to do so.

He's making one or two half-hearted comments about waiting for Eamon (!!!) and "you trust these Grey Wardens too much" or something to this extend.

His tent guard says that they've been arguing about upcoming battles.  Why argue at all if he intends for Cailan and the entire king's army to be destroyed?  Why even make a halfhearted attempt to stop him?  If he wants to kill him, he should be encouraging it.  Let Cailan have his way.

I don't recall Loghain mentioning Redcliffe, only Duncan.  What does the line say?

[Persephone]

klarabella wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
He's arguing so strenuously in the war meeting that Cailan pulls rank, and we hear that they've been arguing about the upcoming battles for days.  Why try so hard?  He should be the one suggesting that Cailan take the vanguard and charge the horde.  Not like it would have been hard to convince him to do so.

He's making one or two half-hearted comments about waiting for Eamon (!!!) and "you trust these Grey Wardens too much" or something to this extend.

And the first thing the Warden hears is Loghain telling Cailan "The darkspawn horde is too dangerous for you to be playing hero on the front lines." And he is right. An inexperienced king, without an heir AND the last of his line should not fight on the front lines if it can be avoided.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

klarabella wrote...


Where in the game is this even hinted at? The game makes you believe that Eamon is dying. Without Word of God no one would ever get the impression that Eamon was not supposed to die. A desire demon is keeping him alive.

Word of Gaider is enough for me.

Um, you actually believe the game's plot was rewritten? I doubt that.

Um, no, I did not say that. I said that plot elements had been cut, and thus, due to the plot elements missing, certain things were changed. Alistair's age/maternity issue, Eamon's age, ect.

I think, the Celene plotline was merely cut and the rest was basically left as it was. That's why Gaider feels the need to pipe up on the forums providing us with information the game is lacking.

The Celene plotline was cut, and thus, there were alot of other things relating to that plot left in game, that made little sense. In effect, certain things would have to be adjusted to make up for this sudden vaccum. Cailan/Celene was not merely some minor sidequest that could be cut without noticiable gaps in the plot. Thus, Gaider coming in and explaining some of the gaps and inconsistancies.

I think cutting that major plot element out also changed elements left in game. You can't cut something that big out and not have some character changes. But since the VOs had already been recorded, they couldn't make the core game changes, so they left things as they were instead.

[Addai]

Wulfram wrote...
It looks better if he's seen to be trying to dissuade Cailan from fighting, and he likely does believe the battle isn't winnable - though if he really wanted to stop the battle he shouldn't have been so dismissive of Duncan's claim that this was a blight.  Plus, if Cailan starts doing what he's told again, then Loghain doesn't need him dead. 

Cailan still intends to let Orlesians in.

There is a reason that Loghain can't believe that it is a true Blight, but it has nothing to do with military considerations.  Flemeth prophesied the Blight, and at the same time warned Maric that if he kept Loghain close, he would betray him.  If she's right about one, she's right about the other.  Of course, if your interpretation is that Loghain went to Ostagar intending to kill Cailan, then that's not very compelling.  It only makes sense if you see Loghain as being torn.  But that's what the writers say.

Gaider also says he didn't intend to kill Eamon and that the elf was there to watch for signs of his condition worsening.  You're free to make your own interpretation, but the writers say otherwise and I take them at their word.

[Sarah1281]

klarabella wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Where in the game is this even hinted at? The game makes you believe that Eamon is dying. Without Word of God no one would ever get the impression that Eamon was not supposed to die. A desire demon is keeping him alive.

Connor wasn't immediately possessed and I'm inclined to think that if Loghain were trying to kill Eamon, he would have given Jowan a little faster-acting.

I'm not asking you for a bit of guesswork based on very frail evidence like the games totally screwed timeline. It's a game, not a book.

It's not "a bit of guesswork based on very frail evidence like the games totally screwed timeline." And what does the fact that it's a game not a book have to do with anything? The very earliest Connor could have been possessed was the first night that he realized that Eamon was sick. I don't think it's fanwanking to assume that he was probably not approached by the demon and agreed to her terms quite so early as Teagan had heard that he was sick but not THAT sick before Connor got possessed and the castle became isolated. There are poisons that can kill within minutes and Loghain chooses ont that apparently takes repeat doses to administer? 

This is the part where the games' confusing timeline comes in. If Jowan had been sent to poison Eamon before Ostagar, there was no need for it to look like it was just a sickness because no one had any reason to suspect Loghain of anything untoward and Jowan might have even been able to make it out of the castle before anyone noticed Eamon was dead/thought to suspect him.

Can you maybe tell me WHY you think this is grasping at straws instead of just rudely dismissing it? 

[Addai]

Rykoth wrote...

I skipped most of this thread because lunch is almost ready.

Anyway.

People need to look at characters from a medieval, feudal, and fantays context, and not from a modern day society's viewpoint. If you go by modern day's standards, I think every single character would end up in prison/on death row for some crime or another. Back in a medieval society, oddly enough, things were a bit more open ended when it came to politics and such, though punishments were far more severe.

Eamon, is he obsessed with a royal bloodline? Yes. But then again, as someone mentioned - it is a medieval time period.

Is he power hungry? Considering he relinquishes power to Teagan, I'd say no. He could very easily be Alistair's Chancellor, AND the Arl of Redcliffe, but he chooses not to. He loves Fereldan. He and Loghain are not so different in that.

 

(Husband)

I think that it is not out of bounds to judge Eamon according to a contemporary "Postmodern" context because of the way the game is already written.

The game is already written to reflect contemporary values in the areas as

1) participatory goverment (much more democratic and republican rule then what you would see in medieval society),

2) gender roles (women take a greater role in Ferelden then what you would typically see also), and even

3) Sexual orientation (Ferelden is a lot more friendly towards same sex lovin then what you likewise expect of a medieval society).

4) The game at different times also directly calls on the player to make a decision based on their personal judgement and doesn't instruct them how to deliberate as a court of law would telling you which pieces of evidence to consider and so on.

So anyway I see this is as a continuation of the mode of operation that the game already has in place.

Modifié par Addai67, 30 novembre 2010 - 12:01 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Addai67 wrote...

(Husband)

I think that it is not out of bounds to judge Eamon according to a contemporary "Postmodern" context because of the way the game is already written.

The game is already written to reflect contemporary values in the areas as

1) participatory goverment (much more democratic and republican rule then what you would see in medieval society),

2) gender roles (women take a greater role in Ferelden then what you would typically see also), and even

3) Sexual orientation (Ferelden is a lot more friendly towards same sex lovin then what you likewise expect of a medieval society).

4) The game at different times also directly calls on the player to make a decision based on their personal judgement and doesn't instruct them how to deliberate as a court of law would telling you which pieces of evidence to consider and so on.

So anyway I see this is as a continuation of the mode of operation that the game already has in place.

Well stated. There are too many non-medieval/more modern aspects to the game that are deeply entrenched, that looking at it through modern eyes on many occasions is not out of bounds.

The reasons you list are the biggest. There is also the aspect of nation/nationalism, which really didn't exist as much as a concept in medieval times, since the feudal system set up a bunch of pretty homgenous kingdoms and fiefs. The concept of nationhood is a pretty recent development.

The Chantry is also pretty liberal compared to the Medieval Church.

[Addai]

klarabella wrote...

The VO notes at the war council state that Loghain intends to betray the king. Yes, Cailan. A glorious moment for us all.

(husband)

I seem to recall someone on another thread (the Loghain appreciation thread I beleive) state that not all the time the VO notes are accurate.   Some of them are based on the original design of the game, the one where the Celene wedding takes place.   And some of the events and characterizations were rewritten and this does not reflect in the VO notes.    This is especially true of Loghain.

[Morrigans God son]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Ahh...that's right. Alistair was originally slated to be much older. It also explains alot of other things, such as people saying Alistair was a potential threat to Cailain's rule, which, for a bastard, would be a concern if Alistair was older, since succession traditionally and normally passes to the eldest child.

Wait... wait, what age is Alistair and what age is Cailain?