338 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Yes, but that study was done by showing straight women pictures of men's faces. I mean, when straight women evaluate another woman's attractiveness, they don't use the same litmus as when they look at men, so how would its results apply to a gay woman evaluating another woman's face? 

That was the finding of the study, but I wasn't think about it quite as narrowly as they constructed it. The finding of interest to me was just that there seem to be a cluster of features we can say are feminine, and a cluster of features we can say are masculine.

Moreover, that study showed that what features straight women found attractive depended on what part of their menstrual cycle they were on. Unlike gay and straight men, who were far more consistent. 

Right. With a greater push toward masculine at certain peaks (for straight women, at least). Again, it's not a matter of the precise findings of the study for each gender, moreso the existence of categories.

Basically, what I'm thinking is that straight men, straight women, gay men, and lesbians (or should it be gay women? I'm never sure what the appropriate term is) might each like a different set of features on average in the person they are attracted to.

It might be that lesbians might want more or less masculine features than straight men; I have no idea. I'm just not 100% convinced they would like the same sort of features in women.

I'm confused. Which are you suggesting I'd find more attractive?

Neither. I'd never make a specific claim about your tastes without knowing a lot more about it. I'm just saying that straight men seem predisposed to like feminine features, and I don't know enough to say whether or not the same pattern would hold for women. Maybe you'd like Isabella a lot more than I do, or maybe a lot less.

Put another way, if you ask me, a gay man, and a straight woman what features we think are attractive in men we might not all agree. A gay man might or might not like more masculine features. I will likely go for the most feminine possible features. Whereas a straight woman might go for far more masculine features.

That's the idea I'm getting at.

Modifié par In Exile, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:21 .

[nijnij]

About Isabela being a "party girl", I have my objections, and rather than paraphrase myself, I'll just paste what I said in an older thread :

nijnij wrote...



I also think the threesome/foursome thing from DA:O is taken far too seriously, as if it were canon. To me, it was more of an easter egg for the immature gamers we are (I don't remember the Pearl being obligatory in order to finish the game). Would you say waking up with two nugs in your bed really broke your RP ? I think at that point, one gets it that it's just the developers trying to have some fun ; you forget about the intrigue for a minute and play along ; the fourth wall is broken. The very fact that prude Alistair could be part of the threesome/foursome IMO shows that it was never meant to be taken so seriously.



Also, the very way we encounter Isabela (if I remember correctly, she duels a guy and has a bunch of others fleeing) shows that she is a determined woman, and probably not that easy. When YOUR warden hints at sex, she says something like "now you've piqued my interest", showing that she is probably choosy, though definitely liberated.



To me, it was quite obvious since my first playthrough that the reason she hangs out at the Pearl in the first place is because she's a sailor, a "tough girl", who likes confrontation and is not afraid of getting picked on by some men since she can clearly defend herself ; not because she's a prostitute at heart. Of all the hangouts in Denerim, apart from the port, the Pearl sounds like the most appropriate for a buccaneer such as herself looking for action (in a non-sexual sense).



As for the romance side, Oghren, who seems pretty naughty himself and has a penchant for shady establishments turns out to be the biggest sweetheart once his personal quest is active (and when searching desperately for Branka), so how could something acceptable for a male character be sacrilegious for a female character anyway ?

[Centra28]

Isabella is nice, but Aveline is a bit masculine for my taste.

*edit - cleaned it up a bit.  my apologies if anyone was offended. just trying to be humerous.*

Modifié par Centra28, 30 novembre 2010 - 09:47 .

[Archereon]

Johnny Chaos wrote...

So far we've seen Isabela and Aveline, both great.  When it comes to looks i'll prolly go for Isabela because of the dark skin, but Aveline has some guns.  Anyway what do most guys think of Aveline and Isabela?

DO.  NOT.  WANT.  

'Dem skanky b*tches!


No really.  Aveline had a husband, and seeing her get over it in time to start a romance (as in, within 1-2 years of the game's start) would ****** me off a lot.

Isabela is just a s*** dangled out for horny teens.  No really.  I'm still expecting arse shots while talking about her dead sister or something.

[Maria Caliban]

Centra28 wrote...

Isabella is nice, but Aveline looks like a ******.

A person's look is not based on their sexual orientation.

Archereon wrote...

Isabela is just a s*** dangled out for horny teens.

Isabela is not a **** and I'd ask you to not use that term. I can't think of any BioWare character that is as shallow as you make her. I don't consider her mere fan service and I expect she'll be as well developed as any of the Origins companions.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:59 .

[Nerevar-as]

Aveline reminds me a bit of Powergirl. Not because of the obvious reason, but because she seems to have a similar muscular body build.

[Ciryx]

This topic is in iteself a contradiction. Males dont think, we just act.

[nijnij]

This might just be misplaced instinct but I have a feeling that those complaining about Isabela's supposedly low morals will be the first to rush when the nude mods are out.

[Centra28]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Centra28 wrote...

Isabella is nice, but Aveline looks like a ******.

A person's look is not based on their sexual orientation. 

actually i have to disagree with you.  flamers dress all frilly in pink boas and such trying to look more femine, while beefy betty's chop their hair short and make it spikey trying to look more masculine.  so yes, actually a person's look can sometimes be based on their sexual orientation.  they are trying to look that way for a reason.  but genally speaking,  no you cannot look at someone and determine their sexual preference.   with the exception of the extreme examples mentioned previously 

but hey, you asked what us males thought, and i'm just giving you what you asked for.  so is the guy that called Isabella a sl*t.   if you want censored opinions, then you should specify that.

[Russalka]

Centra28 wrote...

actually i have to disagree with you.  flamers dress all frilly in pink boas and such trying to look more femine, while beefy betty's chop their hair short and make it spikey trying to look more masculine.  so yes, actually a person's look can sometimes be based on their sexual orientation.  they are trying to look that way for a reason. 

Not always.
And forum rules dictate that posts should have some semblance of intelligence and not directly insult anyone.

Modifié par Russalka, 30 novembre 2010 - 09:28 .

[Archereon]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Centra28 wrote...

Isabella is nice, but Aveline looks like a ******.

A person's look is not based on their sexual orientation.

Archereon wrote...

Isabela is just a s*** dangled out for horny teens.

Isabela is not a **** and I'd ask you to not use that term. I can't think of any BioWare character that is as shallow as you make her. I don't consider her mere fan service and I expect she'll be as well developed as any of the Origins companions.

*Looks at avatar...*

nods...

While Miranda has a nice backstory, I'm betting that quite a few of her "fans" (that aren't on this forums, shockingly, people are a bit more mature here) don't give a crap, and that quite a few of Isabella's fans, as in, most of them, will be the same.  While she might not be a skank (to use a non-censored word), a good number of people won't see past that, and there are obviously the overtones (JUST look at her legs...) of sexualization with this character, and with Miranda.

Plus, there's the fact that she could, as said before, end up in a foursome just minutes after meeting the PC.  Which is saying something about her.

Modifié par Archereon, 30 novembre 2010 - 09:28 .

[Centra28]

Archereon wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Centra28 wrote...

Isabella is nice, but Aveline looks like a ******.

A person's look is not based on their sexual orientation.

Archereon wrote...

Isabela is just a s*** dangled out for horny teens.

Isabela is not a **** and I'd ask you to not use that term. I can't think of any BioWare character that is as shallow as you make her. I don't consider her mere fan service and I expect she'll be as well developed as any of the Origins companions.

*Looks at avatar...*

nods...

While Miranda has a nice backstory, I'm betting that quite a few of her "fans" (that aren't on this forums, shockingly, people are a bit more mature here) don't give a crap, and that quite a few of Isabella's fans, as in, most of them, will be the same.  While she might not be a skank (to use a non-censored word), a good number of people won't see past that, and there are obviously the overtones (JUST look at her legs...) of sexualization with this character, and with Miranda.

Plus, there's the fact that she could, as said before, end up in a foursome just minutes after meeting the PC.  Which is saying something about her.

how you doin sailor? 

[Crimson Invictus]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Isabela is not a **** and I'd ask you to not use that term.

You can certainly feel free to object to the term, especially given the negative connotations it has acquired, but the term itself means a slovenly or promiscuous woman.

The general consensus in her own thread seems to be people feel she sleeps around to get what she wants, her encounter in Origins would support the idea she is certainly open to sleeping around and that is pretty much the definition of promiscuous.

Modifié par Liana Nighthawk, 30 novembre 2010 - 09:38 .

[Archereon]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Isabela is not a **** and I'd ask you to not use that term.

You can certainly feel free to object to the term, especially given the negative connotations it has acquired, but the term itself means a slovenly or promiscuous woman.

The general consensus in her own thread seems to be people feel she sleeps around to get what she wants, her encounter in Origins would support the idea she is certainly open to sleeping around and that is pretty much the definition of promiscuous.

This. 

[LiquidGrape]

Archereon wrote...

This. 

So you acknowledge that you meant to use the term in a derogatory fashion? (which is basically all it can amount to, anyway)
That doesn't really help the credibility of your argument, you know. It's one thing to have reservations about a character and express them in a deliberate, cordial manner. A whole other to be crass and perfunctory.

Modifié par LiquidGrape, 30 novembre 2010 - 09:58 .

[Anarya]

Ugh, this thread.

[Archereon]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Archereon wrote...

This. 

So you acknowledge that you meant to use the term in a derogatory fashion? (which is basically all it can amount to, anyway)
That doesn't really help the credibility of your argument, you know. It's one thing to have reservations about a character and express them in a deliberate, cordial manner. A whole other to be crass and perfunctory.

Pretty much.  This isn't my mother's house, its an internet forum, which is, in a sense, like a sailor's bar.

Swearing ahoy!

[LiquidGrape]

Archereon wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

Archereon wrote...

This. 

So you acknowledge that you meant to use the term in a derogatory fashion? (which is basically all it can amount to, anyway)
That doesn't really help the credibility of your argument, you know. It's one thing to have reservations about a character and express them in a deliberate, cordial manner. A whole other to be crass and perfunctory.

Pretty much.  This isn't my mother's house, its an internet forum, which is, in a sense, like a sailor's bar.

Swearing ahoy!

Well, swearing has really nothing to do with it. I'm not some kind of semantics combatant; infiltrating syntax and smoking out "bad language" wherever it may hide. Swearing is absolutely mint as far as I'm concerned.
I'm just not sure the term "****" as such is really the best choice, seeing as the negative connotations of the word detract from the argument.

[Apollo Starflare]

All the hate only encourages me further to enjoy the hell out of my Varric/Isabela team. People keep pulling out the potential foursome as if it proves something fundamental about Isabela's character, but what does it say about your Warden in that case? Or those companions who join in? Can't we wait until we find out more about her before boxing her up as one thing in a derogatory fashion?

[Archereon]

LiquidGrape wrote...

Archereon wrote...

LiquidGrape wrote...

Archereon wrote...

This. 

So you acknowledge that you meant to use the term in a derogatory fashion? (which is basically all it can amount to, anyway)
That doesn't really help the credibility of your argument, you know. It's one thing to have reservations about a character and express them in a deliberate, cordial manner. A whole other to be crass and perfunctory.

Pretty much.  This isn't my mother's house, its an internet forum, which is, in a sense, like a sailor's bar.

Swearing ahoy!

Well, swearing has really nothing to do with it. I'm not some kind of semantics combatant; infiltrating syntax and smoking out "bad language" wherever it may hide. Swearing is absolutely mint as far as I'm concerned.
I'm just not sure the term "****" as such is really the best choice, seeing as the negative connotations of the word detract from the argument.

Sorry if I offended you, but yeah, I really don't like Isabella if what we've heard about her sleeping around to get what she wants is true.

[nijnij]

Centra28 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Centra28 wrote...

Isabella is nice, but Aveline looks like a ******.

A person's look is not based on their sexual orientation. 

actually i have to disagree with you.  flamers dress all frilly in pink boas and such trying to look more femine, while beefy betty's chop their hair short and make it spikey trying to look more masculine.  so yes, actually a person's look can sometimes be based on their sexual orientation.  they are trying to look that way for a reason.  but genally speaking,  no you cannot look at someone and determine their sexual preference.   with the exception of the extreme examples mentioned previously 

Even those "extreme examples" are stereotypes ; I like women and yet I cultivate a look that many would call "feminine" because I think I look better that way. Someone in my family is totally gay but hadn't I been told, I would never have guessed : he couldn't care less about his appearance, sports a thick grey beard and talks with a badass voice.

I think our society's a bit too obsessed with separating genres. Shaving your legs for example is not feminine, if anything, it's women who're not feminine enough for shaving their natural womanly attributes. You mentionned dressing in pink ; that's entirely cultural too ; a friend of mine who studies social sciences told me that a three year old child will know that the color pink is "for girls", under three years old, they couldn't care less. As for straight women with short spiky hair, I know quite a few and think they look great (and feminine) that way. The only way for a man to really look feminine would be to get a new body ; as far as hair, clothes and mannerisms go, it's all just fluff. Though some people will always go for a certain look assuming it can help their preferred population in identifying them but using this as an infallible law is still a stereotype to me.

Modifié par nijnij, 30 novembre 2010 - 10:34 .

[Whitering]

Neither are fantastic...ya, wow, I don't like what they've done and at the same time removed the ability to mod things to look better...yikes.

[Crimson Invictus]

nijnij wrote...
a friend of mine who studies social sciences told me that a three year old child will know that the color pink is "for girls", under three years old, they couldn't care less.

It is only relatively recently pink has been associated with girls and blue with boys; traditionally pink was considered a male colour and blue was associated with females.

Modifié par Liana Nighthawk, 30 novembre 2010 - 11:50 .

[Drasanil]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

nijnij wrote...
a friend of mine who studies social sciences told me that a three year old child will know that the color pink is "for girls", under three years old, they couldn't care less.

It is only relatively recently pink has been associated with girls and blue with boys; traditionally pink was considered a male colour and blue was associated with females.

When and more importantly where? Prior to the boy/girl thing blue was associated with nobility, wealth and IIRC magic where as pink... wasn't really associated with anything.

[Blastback]

Based on the images that I have seen so far, I don't think that Isabella and Aveline are as attractive as say, Morrigan. Heck, I thought Isabela was more attractive in Origins.



But honestly, I don't find that all that important. What makes me like a charater is thier personality, their backstory, who they are. So until I get to know them better, I'm not really makeing judgments.