206 réponses à ce sujet

[Elrena]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I don't see why people fixate so much on romances (which are, after all, just relatively small side-quests) so much. There must be more threads on romance on these forums than combat, for crying out loud.

Because it adds an extra layer of depth to the story which it is nigh on impossible to find anywhere else. I loved Hordes of the Underdark for the game, but the romance is was urged me to do the many, many multiple playthroughs I have, as well as finding me my ideal career via the writing of fanfiction. Whenever I feel tired and world weary, I boot up that game and inject a dose of Valen into my optimism vein. When it comes down  to it, you don't play a Bioware game for the top-of-the-line graphics, or the combat, you play it for the story, that sense of immersion that only the people here have ever provided for me in a game. People are anxious to see this depth carried over, it adds another layer to the immersion so that people can really get into the roleplaying of the game.

/rant ended

[ejoslin]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I don't see why people fixate so much on romances (which are, after all, just relatively small side-quests) so much. There must be more threads on romance on these forums than combat, for crying out loud.

Because they're fun and rewarding.  And yes, many MANY people enjoy them.  They add an emotional depth and give a sense of purpose beyond "saving the world."

I cannot think of an epic adventure story that does not have a love story in it.  It's just part of the human condition.

[Johnny Chaos]

In DA2 they should have a massive orgy with every BW romancable created..................

[Leonia]

I used to think the prevalence of romance threads around here was because there were so many stereotypical gamers who live in their mum's basements and don't get out much. But then I quickly realised that Bioware fans are just as diverse as fans of any other major franchise/company and many of us are women and a lot of us are married or in happy relationships.

For example, I'm a happily married woman but I too really love the romances from Origins. No, it's not because the fire is going out in my real-life relationship or anything crazy emo like that. But the romances are done so well and they, at least in the instance of Origins where we have little PC character development in the story, serve as a great tool to pull the player into the world and the action going on around them.

It really connects you to your companions and the things that affect your companions and makes the player feel as if they are a part of it. In MMO terms, it's an immersion-factor. Not everyone needs to get so absorbed into their gaming experience, true, but a lot of people who play RP games on a regular basis, especially folks who enjoy PnP RPing, like that feeling of really being involved in the story.

What better way for the writers to get us emotionally involved than with romance? I am sure there are other techniques they can use but so far, romance seems to be easiest tool to use and it's pretty much an expected thing to have with any Bioware game now. If folks don't want to do the romancees, they don't have to and in that way the game can serve both the needs of the "hardcore" RPers and the not-so-interested in RPing gamers.

Modifié par leonia42, 30 novembre 2010 - 02:22 .

[AndrahilAdrian]

I agree absolutely that you play Bioware games for their awesome stories, and I'm not against love stories in general, but most Bioware romances just feel tacked on and out of place. Bioware games aren't romance novels, they're epic stories about saving the world. Romance has no place in such games. It actually detracts from the sense of immersion, and it often feels commercially motivated: trying to appeal to the largest possible demographic and all that. At the end of the day, token romances detract from the story and role playing.

Modifié par AndrahilAdrian, 30 novembre 2010 - 02:26 .

[Elrena]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I agree absolutely that you play Bioware games for their awesome stories, and I'm not against love stories in general, but most Bioware romances just feel tacked on and out of place. Bioware games aren't romance novels, they're epic stories about saving the world. Romance has no place in such games. It actually detracts from the sense of immersion, and it often feels commercially motivated: trying to appeal to the largest possible demographic and all that. At the end of the day, token romances detract from the story, they don't add to it.

I really hate to be nitpicky...but Morrigan's romance wasn't 'token', nor was Zevran's, or Valen in NWN ()
They all added something to the story, in some way. Morrigan's added tension, an interesting take on the Dark Ritual and intensely amusing party banter. Zev added conflict with the Talisen encounter, humour and dirty poetry :happy:
Valen's romance was like watching a flower bloom in slow motion *sigh*
All of these added something to the story, in some way.
But, if they detract from the immersion for you, that's fine. It's just that a LOT of us don't feel that way about it.

[Leonia]

It's hard to write about dark fantasy and tragedy without involving love some where. You have to have a counter-balance to all the emo stuff going on.

In some games it feels more tacked on but for Origins it worked so well.. I think the game wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable if you played a Warden who didn't get close to your companions. Maybe you don't have to romance them to appreciate them but it doesn't hurt to keep morale up amongst your troops and to get to know them a bit better. You're going to be shedding blood beside them after all.

And I'll add to the point Elrena is making about how each romance contributes to the story. My Warden's romance status with Alistair generally dictates how I handle the Landsmeet event later in the game or my recruitment of Loghain. Elrena already described Zevran and Taliesin there. And then there's Leliana.. especially if you've played Leliana's Song.. well you know her past and you know what she wants to do with her life now and it's up to the Warden to give her some guidance. When you're romancing Leliana you get to decide her fate (well, you can dictate the fate of all your companions really, regardless of relationship status) but it has so much more impact when you care about her on a deep level. And Morrigan.. come on, Witch-hunt is hardly enjoyable to us women who never play male characters. Morrigan is more-or-less the "happily ever after" ending for men, but only men who romanced her.

Yes, you can play the game without romancing those characters and still care about them. But for me, it felt like The Warden barely developed as a character and those romances really brought The Warden to life because The Warden, on his/her quest to stop the Blight, had some very real relationships to deal with along the way. Have you ever watched an epic movie that didn't have some element of romance? King Arthur had Gwenivere, Conan had..somebody that I can't remember the name of, Han Solo had Leia Organa, etc. Love is, as ejoslin said, part of the human condition. 

Modifié par leonia42, 30 novembre 2010 - 02:43 .

[Elrena]

leonia42 wrote...

It's hard to write about dark fantasy and tragedy without involving love some where. You have to have a counter-balance to all the emo stuff going on.

In some games it feels more tacked on but for Origins it worked so well.. I think the game wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable if you played a Warden who didn't get close to your companions. Maybe you don't have to romance them to appreciate them but it doesn't hurt to keep morale up amongst your troops and to get to know them a bit better. You're going to be shedding blood beside them after all.

You make very valid points! What's roleplaying without the in-depth knowledge of your companions? Varric approves.
*Hedonist fist*

[ejoslin]

Epic stories have love, they have hate, fear, hope, joy, despair -- it's what makes them so wonderful and so, well, epic. DAO did them right. There were romances interwoven with the plot itself -- Alistair and Morrigan. But even Leliana's and Zevran's can't be dismissed as pointless fluff. Many people made different decisions based on not wanting to hurt their love interest than they would have if the game were all, "Me hero. Me do everything noble."



Romances add humanity to the game. But if you don't like them, by all means don't do them.

[AndrahilAdrian]

ejoslin wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I don't see why people fixate so much on romances (which are, after all, just relatively small side-quests) so much. There must be more threads on romance on these forums than combat, for crying out loud.

Because they're fun and rewarding.  And yes, many MANY people enjoy them.  They add an emotional depth and give a sense of purpose beyond "saving the world."

I cannot think of an epic adventure story that does not have a love story in it.  It's just part of the human condition.

The lord of the rings, the illiad, the cout of monte cristo, star trek, treasure island, the chronicles of narnia, the war of the worlds, almost every story in the bible, most westerns, and most other adventure stories.

[jackkel dragon]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I don't see why people fixate so much on romances (which are, after all, just relatively small side-quests) so much. There must be more threads on romance on these forums than combat, for crying out loud.

Because they're fun and rewarding.  And yes, many MANY people enjoy them.  They add an emotional depth and give a sense of purpose beyond "saving the world."

I cannot think of an epic adventure story that does not have a love story in it.  It's just part of the human condition.

The lord of the rings, the illiad, the cout of monte cristo, star trek, treasure island, the chronicles of narnia, the war of the worlds, almost every story in the bible, most westerns, and most other adventure stories.

Eowyn/Arwyn, Helen, No idea, no idea, no idea, correct, correct, incorrect, maybe, generalization.

[Ryzaki]

I actually wouldn't mind no romances if there were epic friendships and rivalries.

[AndrahilAdrian]

Elrena wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I agree absolutely that you play Bioware games for their awesome stories, and I'm not against love stories in general, but most Bioware romances just feel tacked on and out of place. Bioware games aren't romance novels, they're epic stories about saving the world. Romance has no place in such games. It actually detracts from the sense of immersion, and it often feels commercially motivated: trying to appeal to the largest possible demographic and all that. At the end of the day, token romances detract from the story, they don't add to it.

I really hate to be nitpicky...but Morrigan's romance wasn't 'token', nor was Zevran's, or Valen in NWN ()
They all added something to the story, in some way. Morrigan's added tension, an interesting take on the Dark Ritual and intensely amusing party banter. Zev added conflict with the Talisen encounter, humour and dirty poetry :happy:
Valen's romance was like watching a flower bloom in slow motion *sigh*
All of these added something to the story, in some way.
But, if they detract from the immersion for you, that's fine. It's just that a LOT of us don't feel that way about it.

dirty poetry and "watching a flower bloom in slow motion" aren't what i'd call adding to the story. And I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy Bioware's romance subplots, just that they were out of place in the game (even if they are optional) and that Bioware (and the fans) should focus on more important and less cliche parts of the game.

[Leonia]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

dirty poetry and "watching a flower bloom in slow motion" aren't what i'd call adding to the story. And I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy Bioware's romance subplots, just that they were out of place in the game (even if they are optional) and that Bioware (and the fans) should focus on more important and less cliche parts of the game.

That's just, like, your opinion man.

And I can't believe you don't recognise the romance in The Iliad.. hello, Helen the face who launched a thousand ships?

[AndrahilAdrian]

jackkel dragon wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I don't see why people fixate so much on romances (which are, after all, just relatively small side-quests) so much. There must be more threads on romance on these forums than combat, for crying out loud.

Because they're fun and rewarding.  And yes, many MANY people enjoy them.  They add an emotional depth and give a sense of purpose beyond "saving the world."

I cannot think of an epic adventure story that does not have a love story in it.  It's just part of the human condition.

The lord of the rings, the illiad, the cout of monte cristo, star trek, treasure island, the chronicles of narnia, the war of the worlds, almost every story in the bible, most westerns, and most other adventure stories.

Eowyn/Arwyn, Helen, No idea, no idea, no idea, correct, correct, incorrect, maybe, generalization.

in the books, eowyn/arwen were more footnotes than subplots. And the bible doesn't have romance subplots.

[AndrahilAdrian]

leonia42 wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

dirty poetry and "watching a flower bloom in slow motion" aren't what i'd call adding to the story. And I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy Bioware's romance subplots, just that they were out of place in the game (even if they are optional) and that Bioware (and the fans) should focus on more important and less cliche parts of the game.

That's just, like, your opinion man.

And I can't believe you don't recognise the romance in The Iliad.. hello, Helen the face who launched a thousand ships?

I wouldn't call that a romance, more a kidnapping. And my complaint is against romances that are "subplots", that aren't integrated into the real story. Helen and paris were integral to the illiad.

[Leonia]

Mary Magdelene?



Who said they had to be subplots anyway, just that they are there.



Do you think Aragorn would have been so keen to do everything if he didn't have Arwen to return to? And Eowyn played a crucial role as well. Yes, Tolkien wasn't big on his female characters but they still played important parts, regardless of how many lines of text he gave them.

[In Exile]

Esbatty wrote...
Just like the Asari Consort, I can't say I didn't want that happen, just didn't expect to be put in such a situation.

My Mike/Shep: Oh man, I totally didn't expect this.
SIE/Consort: Oh this is going to happen.
My Mike/Shep: Did I say I didn't want this to happen?

That was a break my controller moment. I was hoping I could hell the consort to shove her reward. I wasn't expect her to misinterpret what "reward" she should be shoving. 

Also, Flemeth romance. Needs to happen.

[Elrena]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

dirty poetry and "watching a flower bloom in slow motion" aren't what i'd call adding to the story. And I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy Bioware's romance subplots, just that they were out of place in the game (even if they are optional) and that Bioware (and the fans) should focus on more important and less cliche parts of the game.

Allow me to clarify my flower statement somewhat. I meant by that little metaphor that the romance unfolded slowly, as Valen grew to trust you, and was actually rather realistic and adorable to behold, as well as adding extra depth to the story as you helped him with his taint.

Modifié par Elrena, 30 novembre 2010 - 02:51 .

[ejoslin]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

Elrena wrote...

dirty poetry and "watching a flower bloom in slow motion" aren't what i'd call adding to the story. And I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy Bioware's romance subplots, just that they were out of place in the game (even if they are optional) and that Bioware (and the fans) should focus on more important and less cliche parts of the game.

First of all, what you list as 'no romance" books, I disagree with many of them.  But I'm not about to argue the point.  To me they prove that most books DO have romance in them to varying degrees, some as even a prime motivation.  You disagree.

Secondly, you are very unfairly reducing the romances to much less than what they are.  I wouldn't like what you describe either.  Good thing they were much MUCH more!

Modifié par ejoslin, 30 novembre 2010 - 02:52 .

[jackkel dragon]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
in the books, eowyn/arwen were more footnotes than subplots. And the bible doesn't have romance subplots.

I didn't know we were talking about subplots. Only video games have romances as subplots.

Unless that time in Zion counts as a "subplot"...

[AndrahilAdrian]

leonia42 wrote...

Who said they had to be subplots anyway, just that they are there.
 

i would be happy to see a Helen/Paris type romance (using "romance" in the loosest sense of the word here) that formed the foundation for the story, and fit in with the dark tone. but the optional romance's bioware has put in so far are necissarily disconnected from the main story (otherwise they couldn't be optional). This makes them sucky and i think DA2 would be better off without them. Its perticularly egregious when we are given idealistic, fairy tale fluff like leliana, which realy detracts from the tone.

[ejoslin]

jackkel dragon wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
in the books, eowyn/arwen were more footnotes than subplots. And the bible doesn't have romance subplots.

I didn't know we were talking about subplots. Only video games have romances as subplots.

Unless that time in Zion counts as a "subplot"...

Hmmm, I suppose the Song of Solomon doesn't exist.  Nor, gah, does Sarah and Abraham.  Not to mention Jael and how she managed to destroy the enemy and win the war.  Or, ummm, what is his name?  Samson!  And David and Bathsheba.

Gah, too many to list in the Bible!  Stories directly related to love.  Those are just the ones i can list off the top of my head.

Modifié par ejoslin, 30 novembre 2010 - 02:57 .

[Johnny Chaos]

Nevarra declars war because hawke slept with Cassandra?

[jackkel dragon]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
Its perticularly egregious when we are given idealistic, fairy tale fluff like leliana, which realy detracts from the tone.

Someone forgot the best sidequest in the game: give Leliana a backbone. It gives "Dragon Cult" a whole new meaning.