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[Johnny Chaos]

ejoslin wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
in the books, eowyn/arwen were more footnotes than subplots. And the bible doesn't have romance subplots.

I didn't know we were talking about subplots. Only video games have romances as subplots.

Unless that time in Zion counts as a "subplot"...

Hmmm, I suppose the Song of Solomon doesn't exist.  Nor, gah, does Sarah and Abraham.  Not to mention Jael and how she managed to destroy the enemy and win the war.  Or, ummm, what is his name?  Samson!  And David and Bathsheba.

Gah, too many to list in the Bible!  Stories directly related to love.  Those are just the ones i can list off the top of my head.

the bible says to share our fruit

[jackkel dragon]

ejoslin wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
in the books, eowyn/arwen were more footnotes than subplots. And the bible doesn't have romance subplots.

I didn't know we were talking about subplots. Only video games have romances as subplots.

Unless that time in Zion counts as a "subplot"...

Hmmm, I suppose the Song of Solomon doesn't exist.  Nor, gah, does Sarah and Abraham.  Not to mention Jael and how she managed to destroy the enemy and win the war.  Or, ummm, what is his name?  Samson!  And David and Bathsheba.

Gah, too many to list in the Bible!  Stories directly related to love.  Those are just the ones i can list off the top of my head.

You forgot... Mical? Forgot her name.

And don't remind me of the Song of Solomon. That scares me.

[AndrahilAdrian]

jackkel dragon wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
in the books, eowyn/arwen were more footnotes than subplots. And the bible doesn't have romance subplots.

I didn't know we were talking about subplots. Only video games have romances as subplots.

Unless that time in Zion counts as a "subplot"...

i'm using the word "subplot" to describe a side-story that is disconnected and unnecissary to the main plot. Plenty of books (harry potter) and movies (star wars) have these.

[AndrahilAdrian]

..

ejoslin wrote...


Hmmm, I suppose the Song of Solomon doesn't exist.  Nor, gah, does Sarah and Abraham.  Not to mention Jael and how she managed to destroy the enemy and win the war.  Or, ummm, what is his name?  Samson!  And David and Bathsheba.

Gah, too many to list in the Bible!  Stories directly related to love.  Those are just the ones i can list off the top of my head.

all very much connected to the main plot. I have nothing against that. Its subplots that i take issue with.

Modifié par AndrahilAdrian, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:02 .

[ejoslin]

jackkel dragon wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
in the books, eowyn/arwen were more footnotes than subplots. And the bible doesn't have romance subplots.

I didn't know we were talking about subplots. Only video games have romances as subplots.

Unless that time in Zion counts as a "subplot"...

Hmmm, I suppose the Song of Solomon doesn't exist.  Nor, gah, does Sarah and Abraham.  Not to mention Jael and how she managed to destroy the enemy and win the war.  Or, ummm, what is his name?  Samson!  And David and Bathsheba.

Gah, too many to list in the Bible!  Stories directly related to love.  Those are just the ones i can list off the top of my head.

You forgot... Mical? Forgot her name.

And don't remind me of the Song of Solomon. That scares me.

I even left out Adam and Eve!  There are so many stories though; it surprises me that someone would list the Bible as pretty much romance free.  Granted, a lot in there illustrates the peril of love, and how it clouds men's judgement, but yeh, actually, that's not so far off from DAO, even with Zevran and Leliana.  The dark ritual is far easier not to do if you're not in love with someone.

Edit; it's when you give a damn about someone and want to build a life with them that it suddenly becomes a much harder choice.

Modifié par ejoslin, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[attend]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

Elrena wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I agree absolutely that you play Bioware games for their awesome stories, and I'm not against love stories in general, but most Bioware romances just feel tacked on and out of place. Bioware games aren't romance novels, they're epic stories about saving the world. Romance has no place in such games. It actually detracts from the sense of immersion, and it often feels commercially motivated: trying to appeal to the largest possible demographic and all that. At the end of the day, token romances detract from the story, they don't add to it.

I really hate to be nitpicky...but Morrigan's romance wasn't 'token', nor was Zevran's, or Valen in NWN ()
They all added something to the story, in some way. Morrigan's added tension, an interesting take on the Dark Ritual and intensely amusing party banter. Zev added conflict with the Talisen encounter, humour and dirty poetry :happy:
Valen's romance was like watching a flower bloom in slow motion *sigh*
All of these added something to the story, in some way.
But, if they detract from the immersion for you, that's fine. It's just that a LOT of us don't feel that way about it.

dirty poetry and "watching a flower bloom in slow motion" aren't what i'd call adding to the story. And I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy Bioware's romance subplots, just that they were out of place in the game (even if they are optional) and that Bioware (and the fans) should focus on more important and less cliche parts of the game.

It's a RPG not a first person shooter.  Are you not suppose to put yourself (or your created character) in their shoes?  Anyone in that circumstance would be drawn to the people they are risking their lives with.  If you are going to sacrifice yourself so others may live, you are more likely to do it for the ones you LOVE.  Is romance a unnecessary part of living (Talking real life now) to you? 
I find as many others have said, it would be less believable as a storyline if there was no romance.  Every person looks for a connection and acceptance.  When I played a character in a romance, it made the consequences much more real.  Which origin had a greater impact, the nobles or the city elf?  I found myself wanting to help the handmaiden's child later on when I ran through as a male human noble.  Guess why.

[AndrahilAdrian]

Because they are optional sidequests, most bioware romances are underdeveloped in addition to being out of place and disconnected. Take the beloved Tali romance for example. It consisted of exactly 4 talks, each of which were brief. Tali and shepard felt more like a fling than the love affair it was meant to come off as.

[Atakuma]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

Because they are optional sidequests, most bioware romances are underdeveloped in addition to being out of place and disconnected. Take the beloved Tali romance for example. It consisted of exactly 4 talks, each of which were brief. Tali and shepard felt more like a fling than the love affair it was meant to come off as.

That is your opinion not an objective fact.

[Vylan Antagonist]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

The lord of the rings, the illiad, the cout of monte cristo, star trek, treasure island, the chronicles of narnia, the war of the worlds, almost every story in the bible, most westerns, and most other adventure stories.

in the books, eowyn/arwen were more footnotes than subplots. And the bible doesn't have romance subplots.

The Iliad: Paris/Helen, Hector/Andromache, (Troilus/Cressida), Achilles/Patrochlus

The Count of Monte Cristo: Edmond/Mercedes, Edmond/Haydee

Star Trek: Kirk has romances virtually every episode! There are more enduring romantic entanglements through virtually every Star Trek iteration.

Treasure island: Children's Lit

Chronicles of Narnia: Protagonists are kids, but still, Aravis/Shasta

War of the Worlds: Horror/Sci-Fi, not exactly a genre with abundant romance thematically.

The Bible: Adam & Eve, Samson & Delilah, Mary & Joseph, Abraham & Sarah, etc, etc. Full of couples, begetting, and even daughters plying their fathers with wine to take advantage of him.

Westerns- Kinda vague, but Two Mules for Sister Sara immediately leaps to mind.

Love and romance are absolutely very common, particularly in escapist literature. They just are considerably less common in games, especially interactive branching romances like in Bioware games. That is to the detriment of some of those other games, where stronger ties with the supporting characters would be beneficial.

[Leonia]

ejoslin wrote...

I even left out Adam and Eve!  There are so many stories though; it surprises me that someone would list the Bible as pretty much romance free.  Granted, a lot in there illustrates the peril of love, and how it clouds men's judgement, but yeh, actually, that's not so far off from DAO, even with Zevran and Leliana.  The dark ritual is far easier not to do if you're not in love with someone.

Edit; it's when you give a damn about someone and want to build a life with them that it suddenly becomes a much harder choice.

Oh yeah, thanks for mentioning the Dark Ritual. That definitely involves a bit of emotion and romance. My female Wardens rarely turn it down but they get torn up about it emotionally every time I have to make the decision. The way Morrigan makes you think about your relationship and the "But what do you think Zevran would think if you died tomorrow?" is just so.. argh, you have to be pretty inhuman to not stop and think about that for a moment. It's especially difficult if, via meta-gaming, you already know that two Wardens cannot produce children together but you're willing to allow your lover to make a baby with Morrigan to save his life.

I'm not sure how anyone could say the romantic sub-plots of Origins didn't have an impact on the overall story. That really baffles me.

[AndrahilAdrian]

attend wrote...



It's a RPG not a first person shooter.  Are you not suppose to put yourself (or your created character) in their shoes?  Anyone in that circumstance would be drawn to the people they are risking their lives with.  If you are going to sacrifice yourself so others may live, you are more likely to do it for the ones you LOVE.  Is romance a unnecessary part of living (Talking real life now) to you? 
I find as many others have said, it would be less believable as a storyline if there was no romance.  Every person looks for a connection and acceptance.  When I played a character in a romance, it made the consequences much more real.  Which origin had a greater impact, the nobles or the city elf?  I found myself wanting to help the handmaiden's child later on when I ran through as a male human noble.  Guess why.

yes, it would be very unrealistic if military commanders such as shepard and the warden did not engage in mini soap operas with their comrades when on time sensitive missions to save the world from a formidable enemy.

Modifié par AndrahilAdrian, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:11 .

[ejoslin]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

..

ejoslin wrote...


Hmmm, I suppose the Song of Solomon doesn't exist.  Nor, gah, does Sarah and Abraham.  Not to mention Jael and how she managed to destroy the enemy and win the war.  Or, ummm, what is his name?  Samson!  And David and Bathsheba.

Gah, too many to list in the Bible!  Stories directly related to love.  Those are just the ones i can list off the top of my head.

all very much connected to the main plot. I have nothing against that. Its subplots that i take issue with.

but you said the Bible had no romance in it.  Here.

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I don't see why people fixate so much on romances (which are, after all, just relatively small side-quests) so much. There must be more threads on romance on these forums than combat, for crying out loud.

Because they're fun and rewarding.  And yes, many MANY people enjoy them.  They add an emotional depth and give a sense of purpose beyond "saving the world."

I cannot think of an epic adventure story that does not have a love story in it.  It's just part of the human condition.

The lord of the rings, the illiad, the cout of monte cristo, star trek, treasure island, the chronicles of narnia, the war of the worlds, almost every story in the bible, most westerns, and most other adventure stories.

And "the hero gets the girl" is very common in both adventure stories and westerns.  It's a universal theme.

You may not see the love stories in most of the books you read, but they're there. Maybe not overtly in your face, but they are there, as both positive and negative things.  

But you also cannot compare a video game with literature.  it's just far different.

The romances, for many, make the game much more engaging.  If you don't like them, don't do them.  If they bother you THAT much that they're there, play games that don't have them as there are lots of them out there.  But why complain about something that so many people enjoy and find make the game that much more engaging.  Generally, the people who post of these forums are not stupid people devoid of taste.  they just enjoy different aspects of story telling than you do.

Modifié par ejoslin, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:25 .

[jackkel dragon]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

Because they are optional sidequests, most bioware romances are underdeveloped in addition to being out of place and disconnected. Take the beloved Tali romance for example. It consisted of exactly 4 talks, each of which were brief. Tali and shepard felt more like a fling than the love affair it was meant to come off as.

Tali is a prime example of what you dislike, glad you brought her up.

The issue with the Tali "romance" is that it relies entirely on completionist/fanboy mentality or previous experience with Mass Effect. There are ~ three "romance" conversations, each coming quicker than the last. This is why I've never finished more than the Tali "romance" in Mass Effect 2.

Dragon Age does a much better job. Each companion has many things to say to the player, in and out of romance. In addition, a romance state affects several other dialogues in the game. Romances also tend to have at least ~5 conversations devoted strictly to romance. With the case of Alistair and Morrigan, the romance even ties in with the main plot.

Just a heads-up and clarification.

[Vylan Antagonist]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
yes, it would be very unrealistic if military commanders such as shepard and the warden did not engage in mini soap operas with their comrades when on time sensitive missions to save the world from a formidable enemy.

I find the ability to futter about mining every asteroid (in ME2) and solving every villager's problem (in DA:O) to be much less realistic given the time constraints than the possibility that love might bloom in such dire circumstances.

A koan:

Buddha said:


A man traveling across a field encountered a tiger. He fled, the tiger after him. Coming to a precipice, he caught hold of the root of a wild vine and swung himself down over the edge. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Trembling, the man looked down to where, far below, another tiger was waiting to eat him. Only the vine sustained him.
Two mice, one white and one black, little by little started to gnaw away the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine with one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How sweet it tasted!

[attend]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

Because they are optional sidequests, most bioware romances are underdeveloped in addition to being out of place and disconnected. Take the beloved Tali romance for example. It consisted of exactly 4 talks, each of which were brief. Tali and shepard felt more like a fling than the love affair it was meant to come off as.

I did not play Mass Effect but wasn't  the sexual situation right before a big battle they had little hope of surviving? I would think most people would grab at such an opportunity in real life.  Kind of a.... huh so we have flirted, seem to like each other and I bet I'll kick it tommorrow, so this could be my last chance to get a little some some from Mr Lickable.  Seems like a normal response to me.

[AndrahilAdrian]

leonia42 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I even left out Adam and Eve!  There are so many stories though; it surprises me that someone would list the Bible as pretty much romance free.  Granted, a lot in there illustrates the peril of love, and how it clouds men's judgement, but yeh, actually, that's not so far off from DAO, even with Zevran and Leliana.  The dark ritual is far easier not to do if you're not in love with someone.

Edit; it's when you give a damn about someone and want to build a life with them that it suddenly becomes a much harder choice.

Oh yeah, thanks for mentioning the Dark Ritual. That definitely involves a bit of emotion and romance. My female Wardens rarely turn it down but they get torn up about it emotionally every time I have to make the decision. The way Morrigan makes you think about your relationship and the "But what do you think Zevran would think if you died tomorrow?" is just so.. argh, you have to be pretty inhuman to not stop and think about that for a moment. It's especially difficult if, via meta-gaming, you already know that two Wardens cannot produce children together but you're willing to allow your lover to make a baby with Morrigan to save his life.

I'm not sure how anyone could say the romantic sub-plots of Origins didn't have an impact on the overall story. That really baffles me.

I will concede that morrigan and alistair were a step above most bioware romances (well, alistairs anyway. Morrigan's sucked for...other reasons). But liliana and zevran's romances added nothing. And its impossible to integrate the romances to a satisfactory level (i.e. part of the main story) while keeping them optional.

[attend]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

attend wrote...



It's a RPG not a first person shooter.  Are you not suppose to put yourself (or your created character) in their shoes?  Anyone in that circumstance would be drawn to the people they are risking their lives with.  If you are going to sacrifice yourself so others may live, you are more likely to do it for the ones you LOVE.  Is romance a unnecessary part of living (Talking real life now) to you? 
I find as many others have said, it would be less believable as a storyline if there was no romance.  Every person looks for a connection and acceptance.  When I played a character in a romance, it made the consequences much more real.  Which origin had a greater impact, the nobles or the city elf?  I found myself wanting to help the handmaiden's child later on when I ran through as a male human noble.  Guess why.

yes, it would be very unrealistic if military commanders such as shepard and the warden did not engage in mini soap operas with their comrades when on time sensitive missions to save the world from a formidable enemy.

 
Read your history.  Most war camps had both wives and women of ill repute who followed them.  I am sure they just sat around the fire and discussed strategy.  Even the Spartans ensured they left behind offspring before going to war.

[AndrahilAdrian]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
yes, it would be very unrealistic if military commanders such as shepard and the warden did not engage in mini soap operas with their comrades when on time sensitive missions to save the world from a formidable enemy.

I find the ability to futter about mining every asteroid (in ME2) and solving every villager's problem (in DA:O) to be much less realistic given the time constraints than the possibility that love might bloom in such dire circumstances.

]To be honest, i'm not a huge fan of side quest's at all, since they screw up the pacing and often seem petty (i would prefer it if they too  were more integrated). However, optional romances are perticularly annoying because:
A. They are usually very sappy, idealistic, and out of place
and B. they are usually very underdeveloped (although DA was a notch above all previous bioware games in this regard.)

Modifié par AndrahilAdrian, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:23 .

[Bryy_Miller]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
in the books, eowyn/arwen were more footnotes than subplots. And the bible doesn't have romance subplots.

I didn't know we were talking about subplots. Only video games have romances as subplots.

Unless that time in Zion counts as a "subplot"...

i'm using the word "subplot" to describe a side-story that is disconnected and unnecissary to the main plot. Plenty of books (harry potter) and movies (star wars) have these.

If they were not necessary, they wouldn't be there. Everything in a story is there for a reason, whether it is to further the current situation or a character's role.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:26 .

[AndrahilAdrian]

attend wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

attend wrote...



It's a RPG not a first person shooter.  Are you not suppose to put yourself (or your created character) in their shoes?  Anyone in that circumstance would be drawn to the people they are risking their lives with.  If you are going to sacrifice yourself so others may live, you are more likely to do it for the ones you LOVE.  Is romance a unnecessary part of living (Talking real life now) to you? 
I find as many others have said, it would be less believable as a storyline if there was no romance.  Every person looks for a connection and acceptance.  When I played a character in a romance, it made the consequences much more real.  Which origin had a greater impact, the nobles or the city elf?  I found myself wanting to help the handmaiden's child later on when I ran through as a male human noble.  Guess why.

yes, it would be very unrealistic if military commanders such as shepard and the warden did not engage in mini soap operas with their comrades when on time sensitive missions to save the world from a formidable enemy.

 
Read your history.  Most war camps had both wives and women of ill repute who followed them.  I am sure they just sat around the fire and discussed strategy.  Even the Spartans ensured they left behind offspring before going to war.

*sigh* i'm not talkng about shepard and the warden sleeping with prostitues or having wives, I'm talking about them having affairs with their subodinates, which is very unprofessional, perticularly when you're preparing for a suicide mission.

[Bryy_Miller]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

attend wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

attend wrote...



It's a RPG not a first person shooter.  Are you not suppose to put yourself (or your created character) in their shoes?  Anyone in that circumstance would be drawn to the people they are risking their lives with.  If you are going to sacrifice yourself so others may live, you are more likely to do it for the ones you LOVE.  Is romance a unnecessary part of living (Talking real life now) to you? 
I find as many others have said, it would be less believable as a storyline if there was no romance.  Every person looks for a connection and acceptance.  When I played a character in a romance, it made the consequences much more real.  Which origin had a greater impact, the nobles or the city elf?  I found myself wanting to help the handmaiden's child later on when I ran through as a male human noble.  Guess why.

yes, it would be very unrealistic if military commanders such as shepard and the warden did not engage in mini soap operas with their comrades when on time sensitive missions to save the world from a formidable enemy.

 
Read your history.  Most war camps had both wives and women of ill repute who followed them.  I am sure they just sat around the fire and discussed strategy.  Even the Spartans ensured they left behind offspring before going to war.

*sigh* i'm not talkng about shepard and the warden sleeping with prostitues or having wives, I'm talking about them having affairs with their subodinates, which is very unprofessional, perticularly when you're preparing for a suicide mission.

Sleeping with people you find attractive and awesome is unprofessional when you're about to die?

Have fun dying a virgin when the Apocalypse comes. 

[Nerivant]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

*sigh* i'm not talkng about shepard and the warden sleeping with prostitues or having wives, I'm talking about them having affairs with their subodinates, which is very unprofessional, perticularly when you're preparing for a suicide mission.

Wasn't aware that there were regulations for that sort of thing, sir.

[Crimson Invictus]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
*sigh* i'm not talkng about shepard and the warden sleeping with prostitues or having wives, I'm talking about them having affairs with their subodinates, which is very unprofessional, perticularly when you're preparing for a suicide mission.

If you're going on a suicide mission I'd say that is as good a time as any you're going to get.

[ejoslin]

The romance sidequests do make for a different story, give different motivations for the warden's actions, etc. I think if the total of DAO was, go, kill darkspawn, unite the land, defeat the archdemon -- without the romances and friendships -- would be a really boring game.

The romances just give the whole thing a more personal feel. And it can make the story very different. What my warden hopes to accomplish, what motivates her to begin with, has a lot to do with the romance decisions i made, which made for a different story.

Modifié par ejoslin, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:34 .

[Vylan Antagonist]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

To be honest, i'm not a huge fan of side quest's at all, since they screw up the pacing and often seem petty (i would prefer it if they too  were more integrated). However, optional romances are perticularly annoying because:
A. They are usually very sappy, idealistic, and out of place
and B. they are usually very underdeveloped (although DA was a notch above all previous bioware games in this regard.)

It sounds more like it's the execution/implementation that has generally annoyed you (they are under-developed and/or sappy to you). That's a different animal entirely.

I suspect(hope) that Isabella will not be a sappy LI. Maybe she'll be more to your liking than all of the walking wounded from the previous games?

Romantic subplot from a Dark Fantasy series near and dear to my heart: Croaker and the Lady.