206 réponses à ce sujet

[Dhiro]

I agree with the Shepard thingie, but our Warden was just recruted. It's pretty easy to roleplay a warden that doesn't understand the weight of his responsability.

[Leonia]

The Warden in Origins wasn't a military officer. You could argue that the Warden-Commander in Awakening is one but not that The Warden as he/she appeared in Origins.

[AndrahilAdrian]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

To be honest, i'm not a huge fan of side quest's at all, since they screw up the pacing and often seem petty (i would prefer it if they too  were more integrated). However, optional romances are perticularly annoying because:
A. They are usually very sappy, idealistic, and out of place
and B. they are usually very underdeveloped (although DA was a notch above all previous bioware games in this regard.)

It sounds more like it's the execution/implementation that has generally annoyed you (they are under-developed and/or sappy to you). That's a different animal entirely.

I suspect(hope) that Isabella will not be a sappy LI. Maybe she'll be more to your liking than all of the walking wounded from the previous games?

Romantic subplot from a Dark Fantasy series near and dear to my heart: Croaker and the Lady.

as i said before, i would be fine with a romance that was in keeping with the dark tone, was well fleshed out, was justified within the context of the story, and formed an important part of the plot. I doubt that any optional romance would do this.

[attend]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I even left out Adam and Eve!  There are so many stories though; it surprises me that someone would list the Bible as pretty much romance free.  Granted, a lot in there illustrates the peril of love, and how it clouds men's judgement, but yeh, actually, that's not so far off from DAO, even with Zevran and Leliana.  The dark ritual is far easier not to do if you're not in love with someone.

Edit; it's when you give a damn about someone and want to build a life with them that it suddenly becomes a much harder choice.

Oh yeah, thanks for mentioning the Dark Ritual. That definitely involves a bit of emotion and romance. My female Wardens rarely turn it down but they get torn up about it emotionally every time I have to make the decision. The way Morrigan makes you think about your relationship and the "But what do you think Zevran would think if you died tomorrow?" is just so.. argh, you have to be pretty inhuman to not stop and think about that for a moment. It's especially difficult if, via meta-gaming, you already know that two Wardens cannot produce children together but you're willing to allow your lover to make a baby with Morrigan to save his life.

I'm not sure how anyone could say the romantic sub-plots of Origins didn't have an impact on the overall story. That really baffles me.

I will concede that morrigan and alistair were a step above most bioware romances (well, alistairs anyway. Morrigan's sucked for...other reasons). But liliana and zevran's romances added nothing. And its impossible to integrate the romances to a satisfactory level (i.e. part of the main story) while keeping them optional.

This I will agree with...to a point.  Alistair was not aggressive enough and only The Witch Hunt made Morrigan's cold.  The problem with the other two is they were just dropped.  Zeveran and Liliana should have been helping Morrigan convince you.  They also should have been sending letters in Awakening, such as...Crap!  I'm on my way.  Stay alive or save me some.. instead of a codex I had to find.  Okay that was my hangup.

[Leonia]

Dhiro wrote...

I agree with the Shepard thingie, but our Warden was just recruted. It's pretty easy to roleplay a warden that doesn't understand the weight of his responsability.

And to elaborate on this, there's even a small discussion between Alistair and the Warden about choosing duty over romance (which later shows up in some banter with Morrigan also). He's not a military officer either but unless he's in a romance he'll choose duty first (heck, even if he is in a romance and you don't do the Dark Ritual but keep him in your party while fighting the Archdemon, he'll still choose duty). So not everyone is willing to take the romance option over finishing the Blight.

Modifié par leonia42, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:33 .

[AndrahilAdrian]

leonia42 wrote...

The Warden in Origins wasn't a military officer. You could argue that the Warden-Commander in Awakening is one but not that The Warden as he/she appeared in Origins.

the warden wasn't an official military officer, but she was a field commander leading a unit into battle, and a very important battle at that. Having an affair with one of her subordinates under those circumstances would be very irresponsibe. Since most wardens weren't irresonsible, it was unrealistic for the most part.

[Leonia]

It's not an affair if you're not married..

[jackkel dragon]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

To be honest, i'm not a huge fan of side quest's at all, since they screw up the pacing and often seem petty (i would prefer it if they too  were more integrated). However, optional romances are perticularly annoying because:
A. They are usually very sappy, idealistic, and out of place
and B. they are usually very underdeveloped (although DA was a notch above all previous bioware games in this regard.)

It sounds more like it's the execution/implementation that has generally annoyed you (they are under-developed and/or sappy to you). That's a different animal entirely.

I suspect(hope) that Isabella will not be a sappy LI. Maybe she'll be more to your liking than all of the walking wounded from the previous games?

Romantic subplot from a Dark Fantasy series near and dear to my heart: Croaker and the Lady.

as i said before, i would be fine with a romance that was in keeping with the dark tone, was well fleshed out, was justified within the context of the story, and formed an important part of the plot. I doubt that any optional romance would do this.

It's a fan-made mod, but I'm told that the NWN2 module "The Maimed God's Saga" has an optional romance. It was so integrated into the main plot that I played along, so I still haven't gotten the "loner" ending.

[Johnny Chaos]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

To be honest, i'm not a huge fan of side quest's at all, since they screw up the pacing and often seem petty (i would prefer it if they too  were more integrated). However, optional romances are perticularly annoying because:
A. They are usually very sappy, idealistic, and out of place
and B. they are usually very underdeveloped (although DA was a notch above all previous bioware games in this regard.)

It sounds more like it's the execution/implementation that has generally annoyed you (they are under-developed and/or sappy to you). That's a different animal entirely.

I suspect(hope) that Isabella will not be a sappy LI. Maybe she'll be more to your liking than all of the walking wounded from the previous games?

Romantic subplot from a Dark Fantasy series near and dear to my heart: Croaker and the Lady.

Hawke: So do I get a discount?
Clerk: No
Hawke: Isabela flash this guy

i want to use companions for personal gain. lol

[Elrena]

I vote that we cease to argue :/

Your view is different to ours and the differences are irreconcilable.

'Nough said.

[ejoslin]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

*sigh* i'm not talkng about shepard and the warden sleeping with prostitues or having wives, I'm talking about them having affairs with their subodinates, which is very unprofessional, perticularly when you're preparing for a suicide mission.

In the case of the warden, the companions are not his/her subordinates.  Most of them are not even Gray Wardens, and Alistair is the same rank -- recruit.

Edit: Gah, Elrena is more mature than I am.

But, ummm, yeh, I LIKE the romances in DAO, and I'm hoping the ones in DA2 are as good.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:38 .

[AndrahilAdrian]

ejoslin wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

*sigh* i'm not talkng about shepard and the warden sleeping with prostitues or having wives, I'm talking about them having affairs with their subodinates, which is very unprofessional, perticularly when you're preparing for a suicide mission.

In the case of the warden, the companions are not his/her subordinates.  Most of them are not even Gray Wardens, and Alistair is the same rank -- recruit.

I know its not an official, legal thing, but this was the dynamic at play here. And with shepard it is official. Anyway, these are just examples. My point is that these romances often occur in settings were romance would be impossible/unrealistic. And that they're underdeveloped. And that they add nothing to the main story. And that the soppy dialogue involved clashes with the tone of the game. And that...well, you get the picture.

[attend]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

The Warden in Origins wasn't a military officer. You could argue that the Warden-Commander in Awakening is one but not that The Warden as he/she appeared in Origins.

the warden wasn't an official military officer, but she was a field commander leading a unit into battle, and a very important battle at that. Having an affair with one of her subordinates under those circumstances would be very irresponsibe. Since most wardens weren't irresonsible, it was unrealistic for the most part.

Most origins you are not a warden by choice and not a soldier in any.  Alistair is your superior, but concedes it to you.  Remember this take place over the course of a year and  there would be times you spent recovering from wounds, resupplying, arguing the course of action.  Even our soldiers get time off in a given year to spend with their love ones.

[Vylan Antagonist]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
as i said before, i would be fine with a romance that was in keeping with the dark tone, was well fleshed out, was justified within the context of the story, and formed an important part of the plot. I doubt that any optional romance would do this.

So if this was ASoF&I, the game, relationships that fit those criteria would be:

-Jaime & Cersei
-Littlefinger & Sansa (Grrr, Littlefinger is my most hated character in the series)
-Renly & Loras Tyrell
-Tyrion and Shae
-Daenerys & Khal Drogo
-Melisandre & Stannis
-Samwell and Gilly
-Arianne Martell & Ser Aerys Oakheart

There are probably more, but if the PC was playing any of these characters, these relationships could be considered optional (except for maybe Daenerys and Khal Drogo), but still momentous and fitting with the dark setting. So it's clearly very possible, you just haven't been pleased with the execution yet.
 

Modifié par Vylan Antagonist, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:48 .

[AndrahilAdrian]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
as i said before, i would be fine with a romance that was in keeping with the dark tone, was well fleshed out, was justified within the context of the story, and formed an important part of the plot. I doubt that any optional romance would do this.

So if this was ASoF&I, the game, relationships that fit those criteria would be:

-Jaime & Cersei
-Littlefinger & Sansa (Grrr, Littlefinger is my most hated character in the series)
-Renly & the Knight of Flowers (Loric?)
-Tyrion and ... what's-her-name (lady of the evening)
-Daenerys & Khal Drogo
-Melisandre & Stannis
-Samwell and the woman from the house of incest
-The Dornish princess and her knight

There are probably more, but if the PC was playing any of these characters, these relationships could be considered optional (except for maybe Daenerys and Khal Drogo), but still momentous and fitting with the dark setting. So it's clearly very possible, you just haven't been pleased with the execution yet.
 

well, i hope bioware can pull of a romance that is tightly wound into the main plot and given significant screentime for development while still being optional. But I doubt they could without making the romance mandatory.

[AndrahilAdrian]

[quote]Vylan Antagonist wrote...


[/quote]

-Littlefinger & Sansa (Grrr, Littlefinger is my most hated character in the series)

[/quote]
A. Littlefinger is awesome
B. Sansa and Littlefinger aren't a romance, they're a freudian nightmare.

[jackkel dragon]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
well, i hope bioware can pull of a romance that is tightly wound into the main plot and given significant screentime for development while still being optional. But I doubt they could without making the romance mandatory.

The main problem with such a developed romance is that it's hard to justify the costs versus the amount of player who see that content (if it's optional.) Especially with the ability to kill off your allies, variations start to pile up. TMGS did well with an itegrated but optional romance because the ally was forced into the party and didn't die.

That's likely the major cause for underdeveloped optional romances in games.

[ejoslin]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

*sigh* i'm not talkng about shepard and the warden sleeping with prostitues or having wives, I'm talking about them having affairs with their subodinates, which is very unprofessional, perticularly when you're preparing for a suicide mission.

In the case of the warden, the companions are not his/her subordinates.  Most of them are not even Gray Wardens, and Alistair is the same rank -- recruit.

I know its not an official, legal thing, but this was the dynamic at play here. And with shepard it is official. Anyway, these are just examples. My point is that these romances often occur in settings were romance would be impossible/unrealistic. And that they're underdeveloped. And that they add nothing to the main story. And that the soppy dialogue involved clashes with the tone of the game. And that...well, you get the picture.

with the warden, not at all.  I can't speak for ME because I've never played it.  You are leading people who are choosing to assist you; they're not your troops, and they're free to leave if they decide they hate you more than they believe in your cause.

I think the setting for the romance IS realistic.  it's not unusual that people going through dangerous times turn to each other.  And if there's chemistry there, for that to turn both physical and emotional.  Whether it can be sustained through more normal times is a different issue, but that's not in the game anyway.

See, you're stating your opinion as if it were fact.  But it isn't.  I don't feel the dialogs were soppy, and nor did they clash with anything.  I think they enhanced it. 

[AndrahilAdrian]

jackkel dragon wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
well, i hope bioware can pull of a romance that is tightly wound into the main plot and given significant screentime for development while still being optional. But I doubt they could without making the romance mandatory.

The main problem with such a developed romance is that it's hard to justify the costs versus the amount of player who see that content (if it's optional.) Especially with the ability to kill off your allies, variations start to pile up. TMGS did well with an itegrated but optional romance because the ally was forced into the party and didn't die.

That's likely the major cause for underdeveloped optional romances in games.

never played "tmgs", but i agree with your point completely. Its why bioware should either scrap romances or make one a major, mandatory part of the story.

[Vylan Antagonist]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
A. Littlefinger is awesome
B. Sansa and Littlefinger aren't a romance, they're a freudian nightmare.

I met a very bright and attractive woman who agrees with you on A, but I never will. He's a skeevy perv, a user of women, and a murderous manipulator and social climber with no regard for the larger consequences of his actions. He's an excellent villain, however, as exemplified by how eagerly I'm anticipating he will eventually get his just deserts.

[AndrahilAdrian]

ejoslin wrote...

I think the setting for the romance IS realistic.  it's not unusual that people going through dangerous times turn to each other.

Oh please. Name ONE time that actually happened in real life. The truth is that people are too busy trying to survive to think about love. This kind of thing only really happens in disaster movies (and Bioware games).

[attend]

I apologize if I came across as argumentative Elrena. I found Andrahiladrain point of view interesting and worth debate.



It is important to me that the writers of Bioware see the importance of indepth storylines (romances are a very real part of life) so they are not deleted in future editions for more action and bloodsplatter. If I wanted more of that I could just watch the news or play that dumb teaddy bear kill everything game. I want everyone to express their opinion. I think it makes for a better future game.

[Elrena]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I think the setting for the romance IS realistic.  it's not unusual that people going through dangerous times turn to each other.

Oh please. Name ONE time that actually happened in real life. The truth is that people are too busy trying to survive to think about love. This kind of thing only really happens in disaster movies (and Bioware games).

...I can't help but feel responsible for all of this.
END FORUM RANT, NOW!
*Peeks out behind hands*
Is it over?

[ejoslin]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I think the setting for the romance IS realistic.  it's not unusual that people going through dangerous times turn to each other.

Oh please. Name ONE time that actually happened in real life. The truth is that people are too busy trying to survive to think about love. This kind of thing only really happens in disaster movies (and Bioware games).

People fall in love, weddings happen, and children are born in all types of situations -- even in war torn lands.  Even soldiers sometimes fall in love.

[Elrena]

attend wrote...

I apologize if I came across as argumentative Elrena. I found Andrahiladrain point of view interesting and worth debate.

It is important to me that the writers of Bioware see the importance of indepth storylines (romances are a very real part of life) so they are not deleted in future editions for more action and bloodsplatter. If I wanted more of that I could just watch the news or play that dumb teaddy bear kill everything game. I want everyone to express their opinion. I think it makes for a better future game.

Oh no, not at all, I was just sick of the romances being portrayed as worthless and a waste of time and want to cut it off before a mod is forced to come in and do so. This isn't really the thread for that and I regret my opening comment:)