206 réponses à ce sujet

[AndrahilAdrian]

leonia42 wrote...

Please stop stating your opinions as fact. It's getting harder and harder to ignore.

This whole discussion is about stating opinions (DA's romances add to the story, DA's romances don't add to the story, DA's romances are underdeveloped, etc.). Heck, the entire forum is about it. Ive explained all my opinions and backed them up with evidence. If you don't like my posts, feel free to not reply to them.

[attend]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

Elrena wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

attend wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I think the setting for the romance IS realistic.  it's not unusual that people going through dangerous times turn to each other.

Oh please. Name ONE time that actually happened in real life. The truth is that people are too busy trying to survive to think about love. This kind of thing only really happens in disaster movies (and Bioware games).

Cesaer and Cleopatra

errr...no. Cesaer and Cleopatra weren't going through "dangerous times", at least not like the ones in DA and ME. They weren't in any immediate danger at the time.

As someone who had spent the last 6 months studying their relationship, I disagree with you. They were in a LOT of danger, due to the potential political repercussions of their relationship, which they were both aware of, not to mention the fact that Cleo had to be smuggled into Caesar's rooms in a carpet so that her brother wouldn't catch and EXCECUTE her. How much more danger do you want then that? There was a Civil War, like in DA, and the risk of assassination, like in DA...

But they weren't "too people who turned to each other because they were going through dangerous times". They weren't roughing it out in the wilds with no one to rely on except each other. ejoslin was espousing the common misconception that going through a very dangerous time with another person somehow leads to romantic feelings for them. Cleopatra and Ceasar went through a dangerous time, certainly, but that wasn't the cause of their romantic attachment, which preceded their problems.

See the problem is you are basing this on real world values and biases.  In DA the men and woman are considered equals (more or less in fighting) and it is a fantasy.  In the real world women (in the past mostly) are considered too necessary to the survival of society to risk them in battle, since men can not have children.  They are considered weaker and A DISTRACTION for military men, which was the argument against them being in the military for so long.  Even now their units are separated.  Why?  Because they would be having sex if left in each other company for any length of time.  One argument I heard was that American men would not be able to deal with a female in their unit being tortured like they would a male.  
 Look at the news.  This general was sleeping with that female sergeant. Blah, Blah Blah.  Being with someone else is natural..

[Leonia]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Please stop stating your opinions as fact. It's getting harder and harder to ignore.

This whole discussion is about stating opinions (DA's romances add to the
story, DA's romances don't add to the story, DA's romances are
underdeveloped, etc.). Heck, the entire forum is about it. Ive explained
all my opinions and backed them up with evidence. If you don't like my
posts, feel free to not reply to them.

You've also chosen to ignore lots of counter-evidence. And yeah, at this point I am going to stop replying because we're going in circles.

attend wrote...

See the problem is you are basing this on
real world values and biases.  In DA the men and woman are considered
equals (more or less in fighting) and it is a fantasy.  In the real
world women (in the past mostly) are considered too necessary to the
survival of society to risk them in battle, since men can not have
children.  They are considered weaker and A DISTRACTION for military
men, which was the argument against them being in the military for so
long.  Even now their units are separated.  Why?  Because they would be
having sex if left in each other company for any length of time.  One
argument I heard was that American men would not be able to deal with a
female in their unit being tortured like they would a male.  
 Look
at the news.  This general was sleeping with that female sergeant. Blah,
Blah Blah.  Being with someone else is natural..

Yep, my army sister (she's in the US army) who is about two-months pregnant now will attest to that.

Modifié par leonia42, 30 novembre 2010 - 04:40 .

[ejoslin]

Elrena wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

But they weren't "too people who turned to each other because they were going through dangerous times". They weren't roughing it out in the wilds with no one to rely on except each other. ejoslin was espousing the common misconception that going through a very dangerous time with another person somehow leads to romantic feelings for them. Cleopatra and Ceasar went through a dangerous time, certainly, but that wasn't the cause of their romantic attachment, which preceded their problems.

wow, ok.  That is NOT what I meant.  At all.  Here, let me try to explain it a little more clearly.

Being in danger CAN bring people closer together -- if you're relying on someone, if someone is saving your life and you're saving yours, it stands that trust will form.  If there is a physical attraction between two people, it can turn, surprise, physical and emotional.  That doesn't follow that it ALWAYS happens.  Or that the situation causes the attraction.  

Ok, thanks for clarifying, but the warden didn't have a physical attraction to any of her companions before the crisis began. Its not "a physical attraction that, suprise, turned emotional". Its an emotional and connection that developed under circumstances that wouldn't allow for romance.

*snort* Speak for yourself. My warden was lustin' after Ali and Zev before I even knew what I would name her. It was always going to happen, the Blight was just the catalyst.

Shhhh!  In video games, there's no room for fantasy!

Edit: And on that note, i'm out 

Modifié par ejoslin, 30 novembre 2010 - 04:38 .

[Johnny Chaos]

my warden was pre destined to have sex with every girl in Thedas........................

[AndrahilAdrian]

ejoslin wrote...


Shhhh!  In video games, there's no room for fantasy!

There's fantasy, as in magic and dragons and blights, and then theres unrealism, as in finding time to flirt with Zev while simultaneously leading a small group of people against both an army of darkspawn and loghain.

[In Exile]

Just on the A Song of Ice and Fire note, Jaime and Cersei are an absolutely plot critical romance. If they aren't banging each other, there's a very good chance much of the book is avoided. Jaime became a kingsguard to stay near Cersei and he wouldn't have been a kingslayer if he wasn't a white cloak; Bran was thrown from the tower to cover up their incest, and that led to the dagger, to the situation with Tyrion, which precipitated the assault on Riverrun. A lot of the story wouldn't be the same.

[Ziggeh]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

There's fantasy, as in magic and dragons and blights, and then theres unrealism, as in finding time to flirt with Zev while simultaneously leading a small group of people against both an army of darkspawn and loghain.

And running errands for townsfolk when theres a world to save.

[justABud]

Johnny Chaos wrote...

my warden was pre destined to have sex with every Pretty girl in Thedas........................

there, much better. I'm a sucker for good looking pixels

[Elrena]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

ejoslin wrote...


Shhhh!  In video games, there's no room for fantasy!

There's fantasy, as in magic and dragons and blights, and then theres unrealism, as in finding time to flirt with Zev while simultaneously leading a small group of people against both an army of darkspawn and loghain.

Because Warden's don't need to stop to sleep, to eat or catch a breather while they're off saving the world.
Seriously? Everyone needs a little light amongst the dark, or we'd go insane. It can actually be a coping mechanism. My dwarven warden flirted outrageously with Zev after seeing the broodmother, simply because she needed a distraction from the horror she had witnessed and wanted something bright to alleviate her terror. It happens, both in fantasy, and in real life.

[Maria Caliban]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

There's fantasy, as in magic and dragons and blights, and then theres unrealism, as in finding time to flirt with Zev while simultaneously leading a small group of people against both an army of darkspawn and loghain.

Origins takes place over two years. Not every moment of it is breakneck danger. I imagine there were weeks on end where they did nothing but travel together.

[AndrahilAdrian]

leonia42 wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Please stop stating your opinions as fact. It's getting harder and harder to ignore.

This whole discussion is about stating opinions (DA's romances add to the
story, DA's romances don't add to the story, DA's romances are
underdeveloped, etc.). Heck, the entire forum is about it. Ive explained
all my opinions and backed them up with evidence. If you don't like my
posts, feel free to not reply to them.

You've also chosen to ignore lots of counter-evidence. And yeah, at this point I am going to stop replying because we're going in circles.

attend wrote...

See the problem is you are basing this on
real world values and biases.  In DA the men and woman are considered
equals (more or less in fighting) and it is a fantasy.  In the real
world women (in the past mostly) are considered too necessary to the
survival of society to risk them in battle, since men can not have
children.  They are considered weaker and A DISTRACTION for military
men, which was the argument against them being in the military for so
long.  Even now their units are separated.  Why?  Because they would be
having sex if left in each other company for any length of time.  One
argument I heard was that American men would not be able to deal with a
female in their unit being tortured like they would a male.  
 Look
at the news.  This general was sleeping with that female sergeant. Blah,
Blah Blah.  Being with someone else is natural..

Yep, my army sister (she's in the US army) who is about two-months pregnant now will attest to that.

My point isn't that people in the army never fall in love, its that they don't do it when out in the field, facing a vastly superior foe.

I feel were getting off track here. I'm not trying to make a statement about military ethics, I'm pointing out that Bioware romances are usually underdeveloped, have no bearing on the main plot, and occur in unrealistic settings. In other words, they fit the tvtropes definintion of a "token romance" like a glove. Therefore, they shouldn't be included in DA2.

[attend]

Dang, I have got to go, but keep up the good fight on both ends.



Last parting words. Trust me when I say it is a fantasy and in my fantasy the LI thinks I made the moon. Whether I am playing as male or female. I purchase and play the game to enjoy the adventure, both bloodshed and naughty time. If I wanted Call of Duty I would have bought that, but I didn't. (my husband did but that is not the point.) The point I am trying to make is in a RPG that happens over a long period of time, I would expect my character to seek out at some point a romance with another person or at least a little tension relief. Bioware has improved in every game version I played (BG, BG2, DA) on their romances and I say...please, please continue. It is what makes your games different and better than most I have played. And... you truly would be evil if Hawke were never to get any over the course of ten years.

[justABud]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Please stop stating your opinions as fact. It's getting harder and harder to ignore.

This whole discussion is about stating opinions (DA's romances add to the
story, DA's romances don't add to the story, DA's romances are
underdeveloped, etc.). Heck, the entire forum is about it. Ive explained
all my opinions and backed them up with evidence. If you don't like my
posts, feel free to not reply to them.

You've also chosen to ignore lots of counter-evidence. And yeah, at this point I am going to stop replying because we're going in circles.

attend wrote...

See the problem is you are basing this on
real world values and biases.  In DA the men and woman are considered
equals (more or less in fighting) and it is a fantasy.  In the real
world women (in the past mostly) are considered too necessary to the
survival of society to risk them in battle, since men can not have
children.  They are considered weaker and A DISTRACTION for military
men, which was the argument against them being in the military for so
long.  Even now their units are separated.  Why?  Because they would be
having sex if left in each other company for any length of time.  One
argument I heard was that American men would not be able to deal with a
female in their unit being tortured like they would a male.  
 Look
at the news.  This general was sleeping with that female sergeant. Blah,
Blah Blah.  Being with someone else is natural..

Yep, my army sister (she's in the US army) who is about two-months pregnant now will attest to that.

My point isn't that people in the army never fall in love, its that they don't do it when out in the field, facing a vastly superior foe.

I feel were getting off track here. I'm not trying to make a statement about military ethics, I'm pointing out that Bioware romances are usually underdeveloped, have no bearing on the main plot, and occur in unrealistic settings. In other words, they fit the tvtropes definintion of a "token romance" like a glove. Therefore, they shouldn't be included in DA2.

but that's why people role play.

[Ziggeh]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I feel were getting off track here. I'm not trying to make a statement about military ethics, I'm pointing out that Bioware romances are usually underdeveloped, have no bearing on the main plot, and occur in unrealistic settings. In other words, they fit the tvtropes definintion of a "token romance" like a glove. Therefore, they shouldn't be included in DA2.

That's just the nature of the game. They have to remain optional content, and you can't have something that's optional be intractable from the main plot. You could have them fill a generic space in the plot that's unrelated to their personal narrative, but that would be largely unfulifilling.

What they do do however is effect your approach to the game. You might, for example, treat the faction they represent in a different manner when they're around, they add to the decision making process, which I feel it very much a major part of the game.

[AndrahilAdrian]

attend wrote...

 And... you truly would be evil if Hawke were never to get any over the course of ten years.

just because they don't show it doesn't mean Hawke never hooks up. I do take your point though, and it would be great if BW included a realistic, central-to-the-plot romance for a change. I don't think they can do that while keeping it optional, though.

[attend]

This really is the last thing...I have got to get some sleep.



The more popular the game, the more money they have in the budget for sequels. The more money, the better the content. Never give up hope when you have a great team of writers like Bioware does. Maybe you will get that fantasy romance your looking for AndrahilAdrian.



Did you have to make your name so long?

[AndrahilAdrian]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

I feel were getting off track here. I'm not trying to make a statement about military ethics, I'm pointing out that Bioware romances are usually underdeveloped, have no bearing on the main plot, and occur in unrealistic settings. In other words, they fit the tvtropes definintion of a "token romance" like a glove. Therefore, they shouldn't be included in DA2.

That's just the nature of the game. They have to remain optional content, and you can't have something that's optional be intractable from the main plot. You could have them fill a generic space in the plot that's unrelated to their personal narrative, but that would be largely unfulifilling.

This is exactly why optional romances should get the axe. Plus they casue endless, boring shipping wars on the forums.

[Elrena]

Oh for- enough, already! You think the optional romances should be axed, the majority of us think they flesh out the game. Let's stop. Now.

[TeaCokeProphet]

In Exile wrote...

Just on the A Song of Ice and Fire note, Jaime and Cersei are an absolutely plot critical romance. If they aren't banging each other, there's a very good chance much of the book is avoided. Jaime became a kingsguard to stay near Cersei and he wouldn't have been a kingslayer if he wasn't a white cloak; Bran was thrown from the tower to cover up their incest, and that led to the dagger, to the situation with Tyrion, which precipitated the assault on Riverrun. A lot of the story wouldn't be the same.

That is one fantastic book. Thank god I didn't read this yesterday, having read the last half then.

[elfdwarf]

any li sorceress, devs?

[Ziggeh]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...
That's just the nature of the game. They have to remain optional content, and you can't have something that's optional be intractable from the main plot. You could have them fill a generic space in the plot that's unrelated to their personal narrative, but that would be largely unfulifilling.

This is exactly why optional romances should get the axe. Plus they casue endless, boring shipping wars on the forums.

You've skipped the second half of my post. They only exist in isolation to the rest of the game if you want to see them that way.

Plus If they axed everything that caused an argument on the forums.....well, either they need to stop making games or stop having a forum.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:09 .

[attend]

I see the forums as a great way to get feedback. Not always will the topics make sense or even be rational, but the majority seem to express their likes and dislikes of the game pretty vividly. What a great tool to have to make a better, more desirable game.
 
An example: removing romances would be a bad idea (my opinion).
A request:  Love to see the male version of a desire demon.  They can't all be females can they?

I am not suggesting we dictate in any way, though it means alot to the fans if the company listens at least to the needs, complaints, and wants of their consumers with an open mind. Bioware has shown they are capable of this. How many times have they come to these boards and answered questions for us?

Modifié par attend, 01 décembre 2010 - 02:13 .

[CrookedAsylum]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

jackkel dragon wrote...

AndrahilAdrian wrote...
well, i hope bioware can pull of a romance that is tightly wound into the main plot and given significant screentime for development while still being optional. But I doubt they could without making the romance mandatory.

The main problem with such a developed romance is that it's hard to justify the costs versus the amount of player who see that content (if it's optional.) Especially with the ability to kill off your allies, variations start to pile up. TMGS did well with an itegrated but optional romance because the ally was forced into the party and didn't die.

That's likely the major cause for underdeveloped optional romances in games.

never played "tmgs", but i agree with your point completely. Its why bioware should either scrap romances or make one a major, mandatory part of the story.

Dear God, no.

[Tinxa]

AndrahilAdrian wrote...

My point isn't that people in the army never fall in love, its that they don't do it when out in the field, facing a vastly superior foe.

You're kidding right??? Or did you just happen to miss a little thing called WW2. No one ever fell in love while fighting a guerrilla war, hiding in forests, with little food, clothing and weapons and trying to outmanouver the germans on a daily basis so they woudn't get caught and shot.
I simply must tell my grandmother that. What was she thinking falling in love with my grandfather in those circumstances.