103 réponses à ce sujet

[mass effect samurai]

I do NOT understand why Bioware does not allow us to switch classes mid-game.  I played as the Vanguard class based on a recommendation in the Gamespot review but reading through the forum here, it seems that the other classes are also a lot of fun and force you to develop new strategies.

A lot of you are going to say that no other game does that.  Actually, I played a game on the PC called Titan Quest that allowed you to switch classes completely for a small price.  This allowed me to experiment with 2-3 classes and find the one I liked the most.  It turned a good game into a much better game - imagine if ME2 allowed us to do that?

Bioware and many of you will counter that you can play the game through again several times but the average player does not play a game through again as each run-through takes 50 hours and therefore they will not experience the different classes.

Is there way to create a petition or a poll to suggest that to Bioware?  It is by far the biggest enhancement that the sequel can offer.

[Bozorgmehr]

You can switch classes, but you'll need Gibbed's save editor.

In-game you can only redistribute your skill points once you've been to Horizon (retrain powers research).

PC or 360?

[Eagle94]

hi, Bozorgmehr, I've just saw your Banzai Biotics video. I have question: How is it possible you are playing without heavy weapon? It is thanks to some modification or it is normal option? Thanks for answer

[Bozorgmehr]

@ Eagle94; I've removed Heavy Weapons using the coalesced.ini file. I don't like HW much (too powerful), but more importantly, without HW my Adept can switch between HP, SMG and bonus weapon using the mouse scroll button alone (no need to pause the game which is great for recording videos)

[Eagle94]

Thanks for answer, oh and by the very nice vid

Modifié par Eagle94, 29 novembre 2010 - 03:24 .

[mass effect samurai]

X360. I'm not surprised that there's a save editor on the PC but players shouldn't have to do that and the vast majority don't know about it (maybe 1% of players).

Ideally, the game would have a special training simulator at the start of the game where you can try all the classes with all the powers in a scenario. This way you can choose the class that best suits you. All RPGs that force you to select a class, should have that. If they make any improvements in ME3, this would be the one with the biggest bang for the buck.

After all, developers go to such lengths to add classes but then they take away the option to play any other class from the 1st few seconds - if we didn't know any better, we'd say they hate the players.  How do I know that I would like the vanguard class when I've no idea how effective it is in combat?

As far as I can tell, the class has zero bearing on the game other than combat - it's actually super easy to modify the save game to do that (Bioware could probably check with Gibbed how to do it).

Modifié par mass effect samurai, 29 novembre 2010 - 03:39 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Eagle94 wrote...

Thanks for answer, oh and by the very nice vid

You're welcome, and thanks. Here are some links if you're interested to tweak ME2 a little : Modding the PC ; Modding the XBox 360; Enabling All Recruit Missions

mass effect samurai wrote...

Ideally, the game would have a special training simulator at the start of the game where you can try all the classes with all the powers in a scenario. This way you can choose the class that best suits you. All RPGs that force you to select a class, should have that.

That's a good point. One of the problems I've got with RPGs is the need to finish the game at least once to fully understand how the power/combat system works. I would like to see some kind of arena to test and experiment with different classes, builds, powers etc. before starting the main game.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 29 novembre 2010 - 03:41 .

[Njorls]

Bioware did a great job making a game with 6 different classes that all play differently. Being able to change your class after every mission seems excessive. You can always start a new game and change classes, Bioware even lets you change classes between ME1 and ME2. To me that's a small immersion breaker but I'm glad it's there, overall it makes the game more fun.



To me it's just a huge immersion breaker if Shepard can go to the restroom as a vanguard and come out as an infiltrator. Part of RPGs is building up a class by sticking with it.



Maybe allowing you to change class in a new game + import from ME2 is the answer. Right now there's not a lot of reasons to import a ME2 save, and being able to try a new class from the start at high level could be one.

[SSoG]

mass effect samurai wrote...

X360. I'm not surprised that there's a save editor on the PC but players shouldn't have to do that and the vast majority don't know about it (maybe 1% of players).

Ideally, the game would have a special training simulator at the start of the game where you can try all the classes with all the powers in a scenario. This way you can choose the class that best suits you. All RPGs that force you to select a class, should have that. If they make any improvements in ME3, this would be the one with the biggest bang for the buck.

After all, developers go to such lengths to add classes but then they take away the option to play any other class from the 1st few seconds - if we didn't know any better, we'd say they hate the players.  How do I know that I would like the vanguard class when I've no idea how effective it is in combat?

As far as I can tell, the class has zero bearing on the game other than combat - it's actually super easy to modify the save game to do that (Bioware could probably check with Gibbed how to do it).

I'm not a big fan of the "switch classes at will" idea. I think it would absolutely destroy the balance of the game. There are some areas that a Vanguard excels at (Jack's RM, Grunt's RM), and some that he struggles at (Tali's RM). Likewise, there are some areas that are tailor-made for an Engineer (Kasumi's/Tali's/Legion's LMs), or Adept (Reaper IFF and Samara's RM), or Sentinel (they wreck the Scion battle on Horizon and the Collector Ship ambush), or the Infiltrator (Garrus's RM is a breeze with a sniper rifle, time dilation, and tactical cloak). If you balanced the game on the assumption that people were sticking with one class, the game would become too easy for the guys who were switching. If you balanced the game on the assumption that people were switching, the game would be too hard for people who were sticking with one class.

Moreover, I'm a big fan of games that force you to make sacrifices. I don't like the whole "you can have it all!" mentality that's been creeping into video games over the past decade. Just look at Resident Evil- RE1 pioneered the concept of ammo scarcity, but by the time you get to RE5 ammo is so plentiful that you can pretty much constantly use anything other than your magnum without running dry. It's also prominant in Mass Effect 1. There was always a clear "best" suit of armor (Colossus), and a clear "best" weapon (Specter Master Weapons), both of which were very easy to obtain (the weapons egregiously so). Outside of High Explosive Ammo and Cryo Ammo, none of the weapon or armor upgrades featured any trade-offs worthy of the name. Characters wound up awash in resources. There were no real tough decisions when it came to talent points, since you could pretty much max everything worth maxing and then some. To me, that's incredibly boring. I much prefer a system like ME2s where you have to actually make tough decisions that require heavy tradeoffs. Money is now a finite resource, which means you have to pick and choose which upgrades you buy and which you are going to go without. Skill points are no longer seemingly limitless, meaning pretty much everyone is going to have a skill that they WANT to invest in, but they can't because they don't have enough points. And yes, if you want access to Charge, you're going to have to make a sacrifice and give up access to Adrenaline Rush, Tech Armor, Singularity, Drone, and Tactical Cloak. I think the best model for resource scarcity is Diablo II, which is one of the most popular, successful, and enduring video games of all time. You have a limited number of skillpoints and an overwhelming number of skills worthy of spending those points on (especially with the introduction of synergies). You have a limited number of stat points and all this equipment with their own particular stat demands. There's no changing classes, there's no respecing- once a point has been spent, it's gone forever (actually, they finally added a respec option... 10 years after the game's release. And I think it was a bad idea). Plus, there's the whole concept of "Ladder play", which says that every 6 months (or however frequently they reset the ladder), your characters and gear get removed from the ladder and you either have to play non-ladder or start over from scratch. Mass Effect 2 was a step in the right direction towards that kind of scarcity and sacrifice, but it's got a long way to go. I'd be in favor of Mass Effect 3 adding a lot more powers without increasing the points you have to spend so that you really do have to make tough decisions and so that the difference between one Soldier and the next winds up being greater than just which bonus power they took. Right now, you can max out 3 of 4 skills (75%) on squad mates and 5 of 7 skills (71%) on yourself. Compare that to Diablo II, where with a lot of grinding and some sacrifice (there's that word again) of one-point wonders, you're able to max out a whopping 5 out of 30 skills (17%). If someone tells me they're a Soldier, I can tell you exactly how they've spent their points- max AR, max mastery, max either 3 ammo powers or 2 ammo powers and a bonus power. If someone is an Adept, he's got max Singularity, Mastery, Warp, Pull, and Bonus Power... or he might skimp on one of those to make room for Heavy Throw. There's very, very little variation within the classes themselves.

Now, entire soapbox speech aside... I really like your idea of putting a "testing arena" in the game, or giving players some sort of way to "try it before they buy it", so to speak, when it comes to choosing powers and character classes. Just because I want to be forced to make tough decisions doesn't mean I don't want to make INFORMED decisions. As it stands, I usually just wind up starting 6 characters, playing all of them for a little bit, then picking a favorite and continuing on with that one. Something that saved me that time and effort would be a huge boon.

[Kronner]

Seriously? What RPG games allow you to change class mid-game? Very few.

[mass effect samurai]

Njorls,

I appreciate your comment and respect your viewpoint but I whole-heartedly disagree with it. That rule has made me miss out on as much fun in RPGs as I've had playing all those games. If you have a PC, get Titan Quest and you will know what I mean! They offered some of the most interesting classes but I was afraid of picking them until I realized that I can switch classes - then I picked a class that I never would have and the game was tons of fun! In Mass Effect, you live with the consequences of your choices but that should not apply to your character.

In your case, you could always stick to one class through the whole game and there'd be no immersion breaker. Just because you were able to play 6 full games with a different class, why should 4.9 million other players not get a taster of the other classes?

Although I'm a big proponent of laissez-faire when it comes to games, Bioware could impose a slight penalty for changing classes to prevent players from abusing it and spoiling their own experience.

Bioware even realized that and they gave the option to respec Shepard but they should have it taken one step further and allowed you to change classes.

For me, this game would have been twice as much fun if I could have switched classes and done things a little differently especially after reading this forum and seeing how much fun other players had with the adept or infiltrator classes.  In a way, it's the fault of everyone on this forum

Modifié par mass effect samurai, 29 novembre 2010 - 04:54 .

[mass effect samurai]

Kronner,



Titan Quest! Just because you haven't tried it, don't be afraid of it. People were afraid they'd go blind from watching TV. I don't see anyone complaining about their 55-inch TV hurting their eyes or because their Blu-ray picture has too much data for their eyes to process:-)

[Kronner]

mass effect samurai wrote...

Kronner,

Titan Quest! Just because you haven't tried it, don't be afraid of it. People were afraid they'd go blind from watching TV. I don't see anyone complaining about their 55-inch TV hurting their eyes or because their Blu-ray picture has too much data for their eyes to process:-)

I am not afraid, it just makes absolutely no sense to me. How can Shepard become an Adept with biotic abilities if he was just a Soldier before? Magic wands do not work in ME.

[mass effect samurai]

SSoG wrote...

mass effect samurai wrote...

X360. I'm not surprised that there's a save editor on the PC but players shouldn't have to do that and the vast majority don't know about it (maybe 1% of players).

Ideally, the game would have a special training simulator at the start of the game where you can try all the classes with all the powers in a scenario. This way you can choose the class that best suits you. All RPGs that force you to select a class, should have that. If they make any improvements in ME3, this would be the one with the biggest bang for the buck.

After all, developers go to such lengths to add classes but then they take away the option to play any other class from the 1st few seconds - if we didn't know any better, we'd say they hate the players.  How do I know that I would like the vanguard class when I've no idea how effective it is in combat?

As far as I can tell, the class has zero bearing on the game other than combat - it's actually super easy to modify the save game to do that (Bioware could probably check with Gibbed how to do it).

I'm not a big fan of the "switch classes at will" idea. I think it would absolutely destroy the balance of the game. There are some areas that a Vanguard excels at (Jack's RM, Grunt's RM), and some that he struggles at (Tali's RM). Likewise, there are some areas that are tailor-made for an Engineer (Kasumi's/Tali's/Legion's LMs), or Adept (Reaper IFF and Samara's RM), or Sentinel (they wreck the Scion battle on Horizon and the Collector Ship ambush), or the Infiltrator (Garrus's RM is a breeze with a sniper rifle, time dilation, and tactical cloak). If you balanced the game on the assumption that people were sticking with one class, the game would become too easy for the guys who were switching. If you balanced the game on the assumption that people were switching, the game would be too hard for people who were sticking with one class.

Moreover, I'm a big fan of games that force you to make sacrifices. I don't like the whole "you can have it all!" mentality that's been creeping into video games over the past decade. Just look at Resident Evil- RE1 pioneered the concept of ammo scarcity, but by the time you get to RE5 ammo is so plentiful that you can pretty much constantly use anything other than your magnum without running dry. It's also prominant in Mass Effect 1. There was always a clear "best" suit of armor (Colossus), and a clear "best" weapon (Specter Master Weapons), both of which were very easy to obtain (the weapons egregiously so). Outside of High Explosive Ammo and Cryo Ammo, none of the weapon or armor upgrades featured any trade-offs worthy of the name. Characters wound up awash in resources. There were no real tough decisions when it came to talent points, since you could pretty much max everything worth maxing and then some. To me, that's incredibly boring. I much prefer a system like ME2s where you have to actually make tough decisions that require heavy tradeoffs. Money is now a finite resource, which means you have to pick and choose which upgrades you buy and which you are going to go without. Skill points are no longer seemingly limitless, meaning pretty much everyone is going to have a skill that they WANT to invest in, but they can't because they don't have enough points. And yes, if you want access to Charge, you're going to have to make a sacrifice and give up access to Adrenaline Rush, Tech Armor, Singularity, Drone, and Tactical Cloak. I think the best model for resource scarcity is Diablo II, which is one of the most popular, successful, and enduring video games of all time. You have a limited number of skillpoints and an overwhelming number of skills worthy of spending those points on (especially with the introduction of synergies). You have a limited number of stat points and all this equipment with their own particular stat demands. There's no changing classes, there's no respecing- once a point has been spent, it's gone forever (actually, they finally added a respec option... 10 years after the game's release. And I think it was a bad idea). Plus, there's the whole concept of "Ladder play", which says that every 6 months (or however frequently they reset the ladder), your characters and gear get removed from the ladder and you either have to play non-ladder or start over from scratch. Mass Effect 2 was a step in the right direction towards that kind of scarcity and sacrifice, but it's got a long way to go. I'd be in favor of Mass Effect 3 adding a lot more powers without increasing the points you have to spend so that you really do have to make tough decisions and so that the difference between one Soldier and the next winds up being greater than just which bonus power they took. Right now, you can max out 3 of 4 skills (75%) on squad mates and 5 of 7 skills (71%) on yourself. Compare that to Diablo II, where with a lot of grinding and some sacrifice (there's that word again) of one-point wonders, you're able to max out a whopping 5 out of 30 skills (17%). If someone tells me they're a Soldier, I can tell you exactly how they've spent their points- max AR, max mastery, max either 3 ammo powers or 2 ammo powers and a bonus power. If someone is an Adept, he's got max Singularity, Mastery, Warp, Pull, and Bonus Power... or he might skimp on one of those to make room for Heavy Throw. There's very, very little variation within the classes themselves.

Now, entire soapbox speech aside... I really like your idea of putting a "testing arena" in the game, or giving players some sort of way to "try it before they buy it", so to speak, when it comes to choosing powers and character classes. Just because I want to be forced to make tough decisions doesn't mean I don't want to make INFORMED decisions. As it stands, I usually just wind up starting 6 characters, playing all of them for a little bit, then picking a favorite and continuing on with that one. Something that saved me that time and effort would be a huge boon.

Very interesting reply - your comments are excellent.

I think this forum represents the hardcore players and you're seeing from that perspective.  I would imagine hardcore players like us represent a small fraction of the gaming community.  Does anyone know what percentage of players that bought ME2 actually even finished the game, let alone start 6 games?  I thought about starting multiple games as well but you have to spend 10 hours to do that.  Just the fact that you even considered that makes me a hardcore player.

Well, the sacrifice is always there because you can't max out everything - even though you're switching, doesn't mean you get all the powers - you still have to give up a lot of things. In ME2, if you switch from Adept to Vanguard, you have to give up Singularity.  In other games like Diablo II, switching classes would be devastating as your weapons/armor that you've collected might not be usable by the other class.  Diablo II had fantastic classes but most players didn't even touch them, a huge failure for Blizzard and a slap in the face for the developers who spent years working on that class.

In Titan Quest, they remedied Diablo II"s shortcomings by alowing you to switch classes but there was sacrifice.
Switching classes always comes at a price!!!  If I've spent 300 hours collecting the Indestructible Ranger armor suit  and the Bow of Infinite Destruction and then decide to switch to the warrior class, I would have to give up my most prized possessions and to be honest with you, I probably would not be as inclided to switch or there'd be tears as I took off my bow and armor. You see, that's a tough decision to make and it's something that Bioware and other companies are denying us.  Switching classes is the toughest decision you can make in any game and it's essential part of fully enjoying the game!!! 

Think of your surround receiver, what if your manufacturer forced you to choose a listening mode (stereo or surround) and then had you to stick with it until you bought another receiver?  I'm really glad they don't do that!

[mass effect samurai]

sorry, duplicate post

Modifié par mass effect samurai, 29 novembre 2010 - 05:21 .

[mass effect samurai]

Bennyjammin79 wrote...

Being able to switch classes like that would just make the whole game feel cheap. Seems like a cheesey and lame idea. No offense.

Just curious, how many different class did you play as?

[9thLich]

Titan Quest doesn't allow you to switch classes at will, it simply allows you to preview the skills of said classes. As soon as you put a skill point in one of those classes and exit the level-up menu you're stuck with that class.



And to be precise they're not called classes but masteries.

[All-a-Mort]

Most of the hardcore posters (particularly in this part of the forums) have played every class many times with multiple builds. They/we (depends if I consider myself part of that club) are not the most common players of ME2, but are those most familiar with the classes, features and game mechanics. Ergo, the argument that it is annoying to have to start from scratch to try out a new class in a scenario and that you should be able to cheat and change classes like underwear is not going to garner much favour. It is more fun to start a new Shepard and play it again (and again...repeat ad nauseam until ME3). Personally if I consider ME2 (and to a greater extent ME1) rpgs, then I don't want to be able to switch classes in either game. It would weaken even further the roleplaying element. Hell, I'm not even a fan of the whole retrain thing. It cheapens the choices you make as you play the game and choose a class and what powers/talents to invest points in. Being able to change class, appearance, skills etc at any point is like your player character suddenly developing a split personality. The class you choose, the build you make and the weapons you select and the playing experience that results from these choices is what makes each playthrough and so each Shepard unique. I wouldn't want to lose that.

Modifié par All-a-Mort, 29 novembre 2010 - 06:05 .

[Vindicare175]

mass effect samurai wrote...

Bioware and many of you will counter that you can play the game through again several times but the average player does not play a game through again as each run-through takes 50 hours and therefore they will not experience the different classes.

.

Wrong Just because the game takes awhile to beat does not mean that the average player will beat it once then never touch it again they will play the game again with ether a different class or the same its up to them because the game is fantastic and worth replaying time and time again as with all Bioware games they are mean't to be played numerous times.

I For instance have beaten ME1/Me2/DA/KOTOR/Jade Empire all more then 5 Times each simply cause they are fun games and I like replaying as a different class/race and try different builds etc and i'm sure i am not the only one. 

Modifié par Vindicare175, 29 novembre 2010 - 06:22 .

[SSoG]

mass effect samurai wrote...

Very interesting reply - your comments are excellent.

I think this forum represents the hardcore players and you're seeing from that perspective.  I would imagine hardcore players like us represent a small fraction of the gaming community.  Does anyone know what percentage of players that bought ME2 actually even finished the game, let alone start 6 games?  I thought about starting multiple games as well but you have to spend 10 hours to do that.  Just the fact that you even considered that makes me a hardcore player.

I don't know the percentage that bought ME2 that actually finished it, but I do know that according to this website, 81% of players who played long enough to earn the first achievement (the one you earn for rescuing Joker at the very beginning) wound up playing long enough to earn the Mission Accomplished achievement, too. That website is generally a little bit skewed, though, because it's made up of Achievement Hunters, and a lot of them have a tendency to rent games, spend 20 hours earning as many achievements as possible, and then move on to the next game because it's the most efficient way to maximize gamerscore.

Also worth noting that 66% of the gamers earned the Long Service Medal (complete two playthroughs or complete 1 playthrough with an imported character), and only 15% earned the Insanity medal (complete one playthrough on Insanity without changing the difficulty). In that respect, I'd say the people on this forum definitely aren't the norm, since Insanity is pretty much all that's discussed around here.

[mass effect samurai]

SSoG wrote...

mass effect samurai wrote...

Very interesting reply - your comments are excellent.

I think this forum represents the hardcore players and you're seeing from that perspective.  I would imagine hardcore players like us represent a small fraction of the gaming community.  Does anyone know what percentage of players that bought ME2 actually even finished the game, let alone start 6 games?  I thought about starting multiple games as well but you have to spend 10 hours to do that.  Just the fact that you even considered that makes me a hardcore player.

I don't know the percentage that bought ME2 that actually finished it, but I do know that according to this website, 81% of players who played long enough to earn the first achievement (the one you earn for rescuing Joker at the very beginning) wound up playing long enough to earn the Mission Accomplished achievement, too. That website is generally a little bit skewed, though, because it's made up of Achievement Hunters, and a lot of them have a tendency to rent games, spend 20 hours earning as many achievements as possible, and then move on to the next game because it's the most efficient way to maximize gamerscore.

Also worth noting that 66% of the gamers earned the Long Service Medal (complete two playthroughs or complete 1 playthrough with an imported character), and only 15% earned the Insanity medal (complete one playthrough on Insanity without changing the difficulty). In that respect, I'd say the people on this forum definitely aren't the norm, since Insanity is pretty much all that's discussed around here.

I have a 100 friends on my X360, I doubt 5 of them have finished ME2 so the website is definitely skewed.

[mass effect samurai]

Without wanting to alienate anyone, please do not reply to this if you've played ME2 more than once as you do NOT represent the 99.9% of players that didn't finish it or finished it once.

Your comments are so polarized and they could mislead Bioware into thinking that playing through the entire game with a different class is the best design. The vast majority of players over the age of 25, DO NOT have the time to play through a game twice. I have tons of games that I haven't even opened.

So please stop the watering and dilution comments because you've actually played the entire game with every class out there. It's the equivalent of Enzo Ferrari saying that test driving a Ferrari would not be the same as owning one. Hell yeah but we can't all afford one and I would love to test drive one!

Modifié par mass effect samurai, 29 novembre 2010 - 08:56 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

mass effect samurai wrote...

Without wanting to alienate anyone, please do not reply to this if you've played ME2 more than once as you do NOT represent the 99.9% of players that didn't finish it or finished it once.

So you're stating only 1/1000 people that have played ME2 played it through less than 2 times? I do not believe that for a second. Also, the ability to change class halfway through an RPG makes no sense. Play the first mission with all of the classes, then pick one you like if you only want to play the game once. Personally, I wish people commented on your class in ME2 (or at least combat, tech, or biotic skills).