103 réponses à ce sujet

[Vindicare175]

mass effect samurai wrote...

Without wanting to alienate anyone, please do not reply to this if you've played ME2 more than once as you do NOT represent the 99.9% of players that didn't finish it or finished it once.

No Offense , but you are ether A. a troll or B. stupid/naive. more like 99.9 DID finish it and finished it multiple times.

Modifié par Vindicare175, 29 novembre 2010 - 09:15 .

[SonofMacPhisto]

mass effect samurai wrote...

SSoG wrote...

mass effect samurai wrote...

Very interesting reply - your comments are excellent.

I think this forum represents the hardcore players and you're seeing from that perspective.  I would imagine hardcore players like us represent a small fraction of the gaming community.  Does anyone know what percentage of players that bought ME2 actually even finished the game, let alone start 6 games?  I thought about starting multiple games as well but you have to spend 10 hours to do that.  Just the fact that you even considered that makes me a hardcore player.

I don't know the percentage that bought ME2 that actually finished it, but I do know that according to this website, 81% of players who played long enough to earn the first achievement (the one you earn for rescuing Joker at the very beginning) wound up playing long enough to earn the Mission Accomplished achievement, too. That website is generally a little bit skewed, though, because it's made up of Achievement Hunters, and a lot of them have a tendency to rent games, spend 20 hours earning as many achievements as possible, and then move on to the next game because it's the most efficient way to maximize gamerscore.

Also worth noting that 66% of the gamers earned the Long Service Medal (complete two playthroughs or complete 1 playthrough with an imported character), and only 15% earned the Insanity medal (complete one playthrough on Insanity without changing the difficulty). In that respect, I'd say the people on this forum definitely aren't the norm, since Insanity is pretty much all that's discussed around here.

I have a 100 friends on my X360, I doubt 5 of them have finished ME2 so the website is definitely skewed.

That's silly.  Even if BioWare's information is skewed in some way, 100 friends on an XBOX Live Friend's List is statistically insignificant.  I've got 100, at least 20 finished Mass Effect, and several have played it into the double digits.

In any case, this thread make an interesting point regarding a way for more players to experience the game.  Some kind of arena, or trial structure would be a nice way to become familiar with a class before you dive into the game.  It could really increase the enjoyment of your initial playthrough and would be the best solution for the issues you originally raised.

The biggest reason, for me, that you shouldn't switch classes mid-game is that a big part of the experience is leveling up a particular class from start to finish.  I couldn't appreciate my Level 30 Adept, with all his upgraded weapons, Assault Rifle, and Heavy Weapons, without knowing what Level 1 was like.  If I skip over to Engineer at Level 15, you'll miss that.

Of course, I understand that if you can switch there's nothing MAKING me switch, but this is an RPG.  Your choices should matter, and you should live with them.

Modifié par SonofMacPhisto, 29 novembre 2010 - 09:17 .

[AdmiralCheez]

SonofMacPhisto wrote...

Of course, I understand that if you can switch there's nothing MAKING me switch, but this is an RPG.  Your choices should matter, and you should live with them.

+infinity.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

mass effect samurai wrote...

I have a 100 friends on my X360, I doubt 5 of them have finished ME2 so the website is definitely skewed.

Maybe that's because all of your friends are like you and don't like to play RPGs where they're not allowed to switch classes halfway through.

[Bozorgmehr]

mass effect samurai wrote...

Without wanting to alienate anyone, please do not reply to this if you've played ME2 more than once as you do NOT represent the 99.9% of players that didn't finish it or finished it once.

Your comments are so polarized and they could mislead Bioware into thinking that playing through the entire game with a different class is the best design. The vast majority of players over the age of 25, DO NOT have the time to play through a game twice. I have tons of games that I haven't even opened.

So please stop the watering and dilution comments because you've actually played the entire game with every class out there. It's the equivalent of Enzo Ferrari saying that test driving a Ferrari would not be the same as owning one. Hell yeah but we can't all afford one and I would love to test drive one!

You'll won't find many people here who fit your criteria me thinks.

Furthermore, people who never finished ME2 (or any random other game) can't give a proper verdict about those games anyway. Sometimes you'll need a little determination to have fun; if you don't want to or don't have the time - don't buy games like ME2 or other RPGs. They have the (nasty) habit to last more than just a couple of hours (unlike most other games nowadays)

[Praetor Knight]

I could see the appeal of class switching, but with Biotics I don't know.

It takes years to train biotic abilities as is, even for Asari.

Then you already have the Advanced Training and Retrain Powers as a stretch already, its not like Neo and the Matrix stuff, so at least for me, no class switching in the ME Universe.

[mass effect samurai]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

mass effect samurai wrote...

I have a 100 friends on my X360, I doubt 5 of them have finished ME2 so the website is definitely skewed.

Maybe that's because all of your friends are like you and don't like to play RPGs where they're not allowed to switch classes halfway through.

I'm not sure I follow - if you do not want to switch classes then just simply don't.  In fact, Bioware a "sticky class" option at the start of a game and if you opt for the sticky class, then they force you to stay with it.  

Why should I and millions of other players experience only 1 class out of 6 because of your narrowmindedness?  I'd love to see you argue that one

[mass effect samurai]

Vindicare175 wrote...

mass effect samurai wrote...

Without wanting to alienate anyone, please do not reply to this if you've played ME2 more than once as you do NOT represent the 99.9% of players that didn't finish it or finished it once.

No Offense , but you are ether A. a troll or B. stupid/naive. more like 99.9 DID finish it and finished it multiple times.

with you 100%, good idea on forum = troll

Do you really believe that 99.9% of people finished the game multiple times?  Another guy mentioned that most of his friends finished the game in the double digits 

[All-a-Mort]

mass effect samurai wrote...

Why should I and millions of other players experience only 1 class out of 6 because of your narrowmindedness?  I'd love to see you argue that one

You are not being limited to one class, unless you decide not to play the game more than once. That choice is yours and is not the fault of Bioware, nor is it a 'design flaw' or 'bug' (too many people claiming bits they don't like equate to bugs lately). Both ME and ME2 award bonuses to players for playing multiple playthroughs as an incentive to do so. If there was a good financial reason for implementing the 'feature' you want then Bioware would probably introduce it, to increase sales, but I seriously doubt the many people who rented, played once or didn't finish ME1 or ME2 are going to have their opinions changed by the ability to class switch in game.
Bioware will want players to continue playing the title, so that they are likely to be interested in paid DLC content and to generate brand and series loyalty increasing the pre-order sales of the next title and the increasing expensive and detailed special edition versions. How will they do that if a player can say accurately after a single playthrough that they have done everything there is to do in the game and that any secondary playthrough would produce an experience virtually identical to the first? The 1 class per playthrough lockin encourages players to lay the title again to experience a different take on the gameplay and story, increasing playability and longevity of the title. Your idea threatens that and is therefore daft.

Modifié par All-a-Mort, 29 novembre 2010 - 10:17 .

[Vindicare175]

mass effect samurai wrote...

Vindicare175 wrote...

mass effect samurai wrote...

Without wanting to alienate anyone, please do not reply to this if you've played ME2 more than once as you do NOT represent the 99.9% of players that didn't finish it or finished it once.

No Offense , but you are ether A. a troll or B. stupid/naive. more like 99.9 DID finish it and finished it multiple times.

with you 100%, good idea on forum = troll

Do you really believe that 99.9% of people finished the game multiple times?  Another guy mentioned that most of his friends finished the game in the double digits 

Just because you think your idea is good doesn't mean it is. And your idea is not a good one for Bioware type of games your mean't to choose your class at the beginning and not just magically change to something else by talking to some random person and pay X amount of Gold/Credits. 

[Vindicare175]

mass effect samurai wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

mass effect samurai wrote...

I have a 100 friends on my X360, I doubt 5 of them have finished ME2 so the website is definitely skewed.

Maybe that's because all of your friends are like you and don't like to play RPGs where they're not allowed to switch classes halfway through.

I'm not sure I follow - if you do not want to switch classes then just simply don't.  In fact, Bioware a "sticky class" option at the start of a game and if you opt for the sticky class, then they force you to stay with it.  

Why should I and millions of other players experience only 1 class out of 6 because of your narrowmindedness?  I'd love to see you argue that one

And if you actually believe Millions of people who bought say ME2 only played one class and never replayed to try another you clearly are a moron.

[hawat333]

@OP



That's just a joke, right. Right?



Because it wouldn't make sense. Anyways, if you don't like a class' playstyle, you find it out early enough and you can make a different character.



Otherwise go back and play Black Ops, but leave this game alone, really.

[mass effect samurai]

hawat333 wrote...

@OP

That's just a joke, right. Right?

Because it wouldn't make sense. Anyways, if you don't like a class' playstyle, you find it out early enough and you can make a different character.

Otherwise go back and play Black Ops, but leave this game alone, really.

You consider finding out 3 hours into the game early?  Three hours is an eternity

Actually, I don't believe I've seen a forum as hostile and juvenile as this one - I guess if you can spend several hundred hours between March and now playing ME2,  then most of you must be teenagers.

I've only received constructive comments from two or three people - all the other comments were just disparaging remarks about how no other RPG does it and I should play the game 18 times, or I should edit the savegames, or what  a stupid idea it is to want to play all classes, and how cheesy, cheap, dopey, diluted the experience will become if you can actually enjoy all classes.

I'm a father with kids (probably twice as old as most of you), a business and a penchant for gaming particularly scifi.  I do NOT have the time you have to play the game over and over and over and over and over and over (6X) to play all classes.

In fact considering the community I've seen here, I think Bioware should not improve their games anymore because, frankly, I don't think you youngsters (or as Clint would say, you punks)  deserve it.

[Praetor Knight]

mass effect samurai wrote...

hawat333 wrote...

@OP

That's just a joke, right. Right?

Because it wouldn't make sense. Anyways, if you don't like a class' playstyle, you find it out early enough and you can make a different character.

Otherwise go back and play Black Ops, but leave this game alone, really.

You consider finding out 3 hours into the game early?  Three hours is an eternity

Actually, I don't believe I've seen a forum as hostile and juvenile as this one - I guess if you can spend several hundred hours between March and now playing ME2,  then most of you must be teenagers.

I've only received constructive comments from two or three people - all the other comments were just disparaging remarks about how no other RPG does it and I should play the game 18 times, or I should edit the savegames, or what  a stupid idea it is to want to play all classes, and how cheesy, cheap, dopey, diluted the experience will become if you can actually enjoy all classes.

I'm a father with kids (probably twice as old as most of you), a business and a penchant for gaming particularly scifi.  I do NOT have the time you have to play the game over and over and over and over and over and over (6X) to play all classes.

In fact considering the community I've seen here, I think Bioware should not improve their games anymore because, frankly, I don't think you youngsters (or as Clint would say, you punks)  deserve it.

Clint is great, I like a lot of his recent work. But to what you've experienced here, players here are very passionate as you've seen ,

With Bioware I'm sure there will be plenty of changes, where they will try to accomodate as many players as they can as they have from ME to ME2 (for example there must be much more behind a level cap of 30).

Also Bioware has Dragon Age, where when they went from Origins to Awakening, they put some books that allow you to respec everything, I wasted hours playing around with that , so they may do something similar in ME3. Just for me, with how I understand the game, I'd only have issues with biotic abilities, but to each their own, right?

[Havokk7]

mass effect samurai wrote...
After all, developers go to such lengths to add classes but then they take away the option to play any other class from the 1st few seconds -

That is a rephrasing of the "class-based vs classless" discussion that has been around ever since roleplaying games were invented. On the one hand we have class-based (D&D), on the other hand classless (GURPS), in the middle hybrids (D&D dual-classing).

The class-based decision is a core part of the design of the game. Changing the mechanism mid-game causes a lot of problems (for example, Fighter/Mage/Thief characters in AD&D 1e were horribly overpowered compared to other classes).

Personally, I'm on the "classless" end of the scale. Why can't my AD&D 1e Fighter climb a wall? Why does my NWN druid have to pay more points for some skills? Why can't my ME2 Infiltrator use an assault rifle? Why can't Oghren disarm a trap? I'd like to have the choice of making my character a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none (and live with the consequences, which can be severe).

B

Modifié par Havokk7, 30 novembre 2010 - 02:29 .

[Googlesaurus]

mass effect samurai wrote...

Actually, I don't believe I've seen a forum as hostile and juvenile as this one - I guess if you can spend several hundred hours between March and now playing ME2,  then most of you must be teenagers.

This is one of the nicer forums I've seen. 

Being able to change your class in-game is a massive decision; it will dictate your entire approach in combat and most likely determine what upgrades you choose in the future. If you want to give players the option to do this, it must be a significant investment with a significant price. As people have suggested, it is better to create an arena sandbox where players can dick around with biotics and tech abilities. Or you could google videos of these in action.  

[GracefulChicken]

Being able to switch classes any time you wanted to would be ridiculously stupid. I dont really have to go into it anymore. That would just be retarded, not to mention a terrible move on Biowares part because it takes away 90% of the incentive to replay the game...

Lame idea.

[ExcitedApathy]

I'm confused. 3 hours into an RPG is an eternity? I'm not trying to be mean, but RPG stands for Role-playing game, not rocket-propelled grenade. In role-playing games, 3 hours is the tutorial and maybe 2 missions. Role-playing games take time, and lots of it. If you don't have the time to learn each class, that's cool, but don't bash the game because you are too busy to play it. The whole point of multiple classes is replay value.



In the scheme of the Mass Effect series, changing your class would not work story-wise. I mean, Shepard wakes up one morning and he/she is a Vanguard, the next morning, an Engineer. It doesn't make sense. I like the idea of an arena (like Pinnacle Station from ME1), but not as an introduction to the various classes, more as a test battleground to test out various builds and combinations of bonus powers within those builds.



As for the whole "you don't agree/are mean to me/spend a lot of time playing this game so therefore you must be a teenager" argument... now who is being childish?

[Ahglock]

I am not sure I like the idea of changing classes mid game. While yes I do not have to do it, to me an RPG is about immersing yourself in a setting. The ability to class change is immersion breaking in too many ways. How did you get all of that combat training instantly, how did you mutate your genes get a piece of cyberware and years of training to use biotics by clicking a button etc. To many gamist elements have already intruded on the RP parts of the RPG in ME2.



But I do like the idea of some kind of training area where you have full access to all your powers so you can get a feel for the gameplay. In ME2 I don't think you really have a feel for a class until you have leveled up enough to be in your teens. Some arena where you can experience that so you don't "waste" 10+ hours seems reasonable to me. But hey I don't mind putting hundreds of hours into a game even though I am a grown ass man,, if Mass Effect Samurai doubles my age he is in his 70's and i am very impressed that he plays a 3rd person shooter on the computer machines.

[DaVanguard]

Ive got over 80 hours in F:NV and Ive done almost every thing. one. two or three hours a siting. how is hours forever unless you are a FPS player

[Havokk7]

For a starting point to research the issue, check out en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_class, www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php, and www.mmorpg.com/blogs/staffblog/082009/4472_Why-Dont-We-See-classless-Games (I think that last one has some great points).

[Vindicare175]

3 Hours is like nothing in a RPG thats maybe the Starting zone/Intro/Origin so play threw the origin or starting part with different classes and see what you like there is no need to beable to switch classes mid-game and I hope its never implemented once you've chosen your class thats your choice want to play something else? start over. 

For example in a mmo you choose a class if you want another you roll something else , rolling/restarting different classes is part of gaming ether get used to it or quit gaming as its clearly not for you otherwise.

[SSoG]

Havokk7 wrote...

That is a rephrasing of the "class-based vs classless" discussion that has been around ever since roleplaying games were invented. On the one hand we have class-based (D&D), on the other hand classless (GURPS), in the middle hybrids (D&D dual-classing).

The class-based decision is a core part of the design of the game. Changing the mechanism mid-game causes a lot of problems (for example, Fighter/Mage/Thief characters in AD&D 1e were horribly overpowered compared to other classes).

Personally, I'm on the "classless" end of the scale. Why can't my AD&D 1e Fighter climb a wall? Why does my NWN druid have to pay more points for some skills? Why can't my ME2 Infiltrator use an assault rifle? Why can't Oghren disarm a trap? I'd like to have the choice of making my character a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none (and live with the consequences, which can be severe).

B

I'm all for a game developer blurring the lines between classes. I'm fine with Oghren spending countless hours and resources practicing and learning to disarm traps. The thing I have a problem with is Oghren waking up one morning, deciding he wants to know how to disarm traps, and magically respeccing so he's a trap-disarming foo'. Once you make your decisions, those decisions should be final. You shouldn't be able to swap everything around willy-nilly as the sitution dictates.

With that said, I happen to like the class systems. I think it adds a lot more variety. I think the worst Final Fantasy battle systems are always the ones where they go back to the job systems, because it homogonizes all of the characters. When you're deciding whether to take character A, character B, or character C, it's not a decision based on pros and cons each character offers, it's a decision based strictly on who you think looks better, or has better voice acting. All the characters are so "classless" as to be functionally identical. That's not fun. I much prefer something like Final Fantasy 9, where all of the characters were wholly distinct. They didn't just look different, they PLAYED different. Of course the low points were Final Fantasy X-2 and Final Fantasy V, two games where the characters were so thoroughly homogonized that they didn't even bother creating alternates- there were no extra characters, because what would the point be? All characters were fully interchangeable, anyway.

[mass effect samurai]

These last few comments were very interesting as I didn't even know there was a debate of class-based versus classless RPGs.  My solution is ridiculously simple - offer both! 

The hardcore RPGers can take out the dice and roll them and input the value thus determining the damage dealt - they'll spent 3,000 hours per playthrough and of course, they should never, ever be allowed to change classes.  In fact, I second that Bioware prevent those players from changing classes even when starting a new game - the choice should be final and the player should be stuck with it for life - as you said, changing classes is absurd if you wish to call yourself a true RPGer, guys! I think you'll agree with me that all this cinematic storytelling also detracts from a pure RPG experience and the hardcore players should probably be treated to a text-based story that they can read instead.  Do you guys even need the 3D combat or does that feel too much like a FPS?  If you feel slighted, perhaps we can ask Bioware to strip that part out too.

For the rest of us, gamers, who like action games with RPG elements (the vast majority of players who fund the development of the game and pay the salaries of Bioware staff) and who wish to get the full experience of the game, Bioware should be so kind as to allow us to change our class. We also do NOT mind the cinematic feel and 3D combat so please keep that for us.

I believe we have reached a consensus.  

Hopefully, Bioware is listening and can enforce the strict RPG elements for the hardcore players so they can suffer through the game while giving the vast majority of other players the freedom to enjoy every aspect of the game. 

Modifié par mass effect samurai, 30 novembre 2010 - 05:29 .

[Vindicare175]

mass effect samurai wrote...

These last few comments were very interesting as I didn't even know there was a debate of class-based versus classless RPGs.  My solution is ridiculously simple - offer both! 

The hardcore RPGers can take out the dice and roll them and input the value thus determining the damage dealt - they'll spent 3,000 hours per playthrough and of course, they should never, ever be allowed to change classes.  In fact, I second that Bioware prevent those players from changing classes even when starting a new game - the choice should be final and the player should be stuck with it for life - as you said, changing classes is absurd if you wish to call yourself a true RPGer, guys! I think you'll agree with me that all this cinematic storytelling also detracts from a pure RPG experience and the hardcore players should probably be treated to a text-based story that they can read instead.  Do you guys even need the 3D combat or does that feel too much like a FPS?  If you feel slighted, perhaps we can ask Bioware to strip that part out too.

For the rest of us, gamers, who like action games with RPG elements (the vast majority of players who fund the development of the game and pay the salaries of Bioware staff) and who wish to get the full experience of the game, Bioware should be so kind as to allow us to change our class. We also do NOT mind the cinematic feel and 3D combat so please keep that for us.

I believe we have reached a consensus.  

Hopefully, Bioware is listening and can enforce the strict RPG elements for the hardcore players so they can suffer through the game while giving the vast majority of other players the freedom to enjoy every aspect of the game. 

Most of that is completely stupid , 1 class thats it? No i said you choose your class per playthrew , and enough with your style of gamer is in the vast majority as sorry no its not.

The Vast majority are not Hardcore Casual's such as yourself or Hardcore Power Gamers , its the normal or average gamer who will play a game multiple times and who do not mind once you choose your class for that playthrew thats it , thats your choice stick with it or restart. Simple . As . That.

And if you do not understand Bioware = Storytelling then you shouldn't be playing a Bioware game if you don't want storytelling.

Modifié par Vindicare175, 30 novembre 2010 - 06:06 .