103 réponses à ce sujet

[Googlesaurus]

mass effect samurai wrote...

These last few comments were very interesting as I didn't even know there was a debate of class-based versus classless RPGs.  My solution is ridiculously simple - offer both! 

The hardcore RPGers can take out the dice and roll them and input the value thus determining the damage dealt - they'll spent 3,000 hours per playthrough and of course, they should never, ever be allowed to change classes.  In fact, I second that Bioware prevent those players from changing classes even when starting a new game - the choice should be final and the player should be stuck with it for life - as you said, changing classes is absurd if you wish to call yourself a true RPGer, guys! I think you'll agree with me that all this cinematic storytelling also detracts from a pure RPG experience and the hardcore players should probably be treated to a text-based story that they can read instead.  Do you guys even need the 3D combat or does that feel too much like a FPS?  If you feel slighted, perhaps we can ask Bioware to strip that part out too.

For the rest of us, gamers, who like action games with RPG elements (the vast majority of players who fund the development of the game and pay the salaries of Bioware staff) and who wish to get the full experience of the game, Bioware should be so kind as to allow us to change our class. We also do NOT mind the cinematic feel and 3D combat so please keep that for us.

I believe we have reached a consensus.  

Hopefully, Bioware is listening and can enforce the strict RPG elements for the hardcore players so they can suffer through the game while giving the vast majority of other players the freedom to enjoy every aspect of the game. 

Stop acting like a spoiled brat. If you don't have the time to play an action-RPG, don't buy it. 

Modifié par Googlesaurus, 30 novembre 2010 - 06:12 .

[Vindicare175]

Googlesaurus wrote...

mass effect samurai wrote...

These last few comments were very interesting as I didn't even know there was a debate of class-based versus classless RPGs.  My solution is ridiculously simple - offer both! 

The hardcore RPGers can take out the dice and roll them and input the value thus determining the damage dealt - they'll spent 3,000 hours per playthrough and of course, they should never, ever be allowed to change classes.  In fact, I second that Bioware prevent those players from changing classes even when starting a new game - the choice should be final and the player should be stuck with it for life - as you said, changing classes is absurd if you wish to call yourself a true RPGer, guys! I think you'll agree with me that all this cinematic storytelling also detracts from a pure RPG experience and the hardcore players should probably be treated to a text-based story that they can read instead.  Do you guys even need the 3D combat or does that feel too much like a FPS?  If you feel slighted, perhaps we can ask Bioware to strip that part out too.

For the rest of us, gamers, who like action games with RPG elements (the vast majority of players who fund the development of the game and pay the salaries of Bioware staff) and who wish to get the full experience of the game, Bioware should be so kind as to allow us to change our class. We also do NOT mind the cinematic feel and 3D combat so please keep that for us.

I believe we have reached a consensus.  

Hopefully, Bioware is listening and can enforce the strict RPG elements for the hardcore players so they can suffer through the game while giving the vast majority of other players the freedom to enjoy every aspect of the game. 

Stop acting like a spoiled brat. If you don't have the time to play an action-RPG, don't buy it. 

Agreed 100% i also love how he said "I'm a father with kids (probably twice as old as most of you)" uh huh i for instance am 20 so your kids are 40? so what everyone here is like 10 years old huh? I'm sure there are alot of gamers in all sorts of different age groups so you can't target a entire forum group as being young/immature just cause you don't like what we are saying.

And how do we not deserve to have them improve the games ? thats incredibly stupid.

Modifié par Vindicare175, 30 novembre 2010 - 06:31 .

[mcsupersport]

This game is a 30+ - hour game, with DLC and depending on playstyle. Playing one tenth of the game is not a huge investment to determine what play style you like. I just got finished doing a character run through ME1, to bring into ME2, at 48 hours invested to get a level 60 with all the correct endings. So when I take her through ME2 multiple times with multiple classes and bonus weapons I will have 100-150 hours in the character. This is why I buy Bioware games, I don't spend 60 dollars and play 10 hours and throw the game in a bin to never play again. These games are my escape and place to blow off a bit of steam. It may take me months to run through all the times, but the game is worth it, and so is my sanity.



Just because you want to switch around every-time you feel like it doesn't make it better or right. I personally agree with all the people that say being able to do so would weaken the story, and lessen the game. If you don't like Vanguard, then restart and play something else. I can't remember how many times I restarted Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 before figuring out what I liked. I did some of the same with ME1 before ending up playing them all over the years. The games produced by Bioware lend themselves well to multiple plays so I get full value from them and enjoy them immensely.





Oh, by the way, I am a 39 year old father of two, one boy and one girl ages 6 and 3. You can find the time if you really want too, even at an hour at a time.

[Vindicare175]

mcsupersport wrote...

This game is a 30+ - hour game, with DLC and depending on playstyle. Playing one tenth of the game is not a huge investment to determine what play style you like. I just got finished doing a character run through ME1, to bring into ME2, at 48 hours invested to get a level 60 with all the correct endings. So when I take her through ME2 multiple times with multiple classes and bonus weapons I will have 100-150 hours in the character. This is why I buy Bioware games, I don't spend 60 dollars and play 10 hours and throw the game in a bin to never play again. These games are my escape and place to blow off a bit of steam. It may take me months to run through all the times, but the game is worth it, and so is my sanity.

Just because you want to switch around every-time you feel like it doesn't make it better or right. I personally agree with all the people that say being able to do so would weaken the story, and lessen the game. If you don't like Vanguard, then restart and play something else. I can't remember how many times I restarted Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 before figuring out what I liked. I did some of the same with ME1 before ending up playing them all over the years. The games produced by Bioware lend themselves well to multiple plays so I get full value from them and enjoy them immensely.


Oh, by the way, I am a 39 year old father of two, one boy and one girl ages 6 and 3. You can find the time if you really want too, even at an hour at a time.

 Agreed I too cannot count how many times I've restarted in Dragon Age cause I want to play something else thats why I have multiple saves going so i can play what i want when I feel like it.

[Wompoo]

Being able to switches classes at will is "not" in the spirit of rpgs or most games. Every class brings different strengths to a game, and provides variety in play and their own challenges. This swap at will mentality is a Y Gen attitude to life, where everything must come easy and without effort. This is one thing I sincerely hope BW never ever adds to their games.

[Mocker22]

Sometimes it is hard to remember that Mass Effect IS still an RPG. I understand that the game mechanics are of a shooter. but the point is to create a personalized chaacter and play through an amazing storyline. I am in the camp of changing classes being ridiculous. What, did the Soldier shepard undergo emergency Ezo exposure and brain surgery and have 20 years of training implanted into his brain?



One of the things that I find most immersive about Mass Effect. I don't want to launch a physics debate, but Bioware did an excellent job of making the Mass Effect universe seem very plausible and very thoughout and discribed.



I do personally add some limitations t keep the game more realistic in my opinion. Bonus powers must be plausible, meaning no biotics on a non biotic character etc. I also rarely respec , although sometimes I will decide I made a poor choice, and I WILL NOT respec just for secific missions. The one exception to that is if Im trying a level 30 Insanity playthrough with certain classes.

[mass effect samurai]

mcsupersport wrote...


Oh, by the way, I am a 39 year old father of two, one boy and one girl ages 6 and 3. You can find the time if you really want too, even at an hour at a time.

Sorrry there are way too many games out there that are ME2's equal like Red Dead Redemption, Assassin's Creed, Dragon Age, Bioshock to name a few that I would also like to play.  I don't believe players should be forced to replay the same game over and over again.  My 1st playthrough took 50 hours which is plenty.  

I now see why the Mass Effect masters on this forum would take offense because it does take away some of your personal achievement - after all, why should every player out there enjoy more than one class in a single game when you're willing to play through the whole game 6 times to do that? It strips away some of your bragging rights and uniqueness in the ME gaming universe.

I hear you and I sympathize but that's something you should be willing to give up for the greater good.  You can still earn your glory the old-fashioned by sticking to a class and Bioware could even offer a special achievement for doing so - let's just hope they don't call it "the stickler".

Modifié par mass effect samurai, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:47 .

[mass effect samurai]

Brock22 wrote...

I am in the camp of changing classes being ridiculous. What, did the Soldier shepard undergo emergency Ezo exposure and brain surgery and have 20 years of training implanted into his brain?

I do personally add some limitations t keep the game more realistic in my opinion.

I think you are a hypocrite if you say that you want more realism. 

What about the arsenal that Shepard carries?  As a vanguard he is carrying 5 weapons including a 200-pound heavy weapon - he probably couldn't run or fire a bullet without having to take all his weapons off first.

What about the enemies dropping ammo that is compatible with your weapon?  

What about a circle that allows you to pause combat and make decisions?  Why don't troops in Iraq do that during combat and create a singularity?

What about your squadmates or you never dying from friendly fire?

What about being able to load a game after dying?  How on earth is that realistic?  The dude died!!!  The game should end and you should have to play from the beginning.

You want realism, I don't think any of us want realism in a game.

[mass effect samurai]

You can see the differences between us - I am a super thorough player, I don't play 60% of the game, I play 100% of the game and it takes 50+ hours to play through so, yes, switching classes is absolutely critical for me as I can only afford to play games once. 
I'm sure someone with a pea-sized brain is now going to suggest that I only complete half the missions per playthrough so that I can replay with a different class.  I'll preempt the comment and say that it's a moronic suggestion to tell me that I should play half the game.
To the folks who keep talking about a lessened experience How on earth would playing 25 hours as an Adept and another 25 hours as a Vanguard lessen the game? 
This is a game and it was created for players to enjoy.   I and many others would have enjoyed ME2 twice as much had I been able to play as a different class.  Every other comment or argument about RPG canon is totally irrelevant to this discussion. 
Why would you deny me and other players the full enjoyment of the game by adding a feature that does no harm to you?  That was the original point and noone has made a valid argument against it.  You just need to be strong and stick with your class.  If you're weak and you can't resist the temptation to switch, then all the more reason for Bioware to add that to the game to tempt the weak ones.  

This is a game about choices and the biggest choice is the class you choose - you should be able to change it.  

[Kronner]

Should you also be able to change your face? Gender? Where do you draw the line. What are you doing for 50 hours anyway? Changing class mid-game is just stupid idea.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

I'm a completionist too... When I got the game I decided to play through it at least 6 times because I feel that each class offers a different experience and that each experience would be incomplete without finishing each playthrough in full. I'm 2/3s of my way through this right now and I've never once felt the need to switch classes in the middle of a campaign.

As it's been said, ME2 already gives a lot more freedom then most comparable games, in terms of character re-spec'ing. Also, completionists approach games the way they do because they feel that certain games are worth putting the time into to get the full experience out of them... I don't understand why you are so adamant in saying that you are a ME2 completionist if clearly you are not enjoying the game enough to play through the campaign more than once.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 30 novembre 2010 - 04:06 .

[SupidSeep]

mass effect samurai wrote...

This is a game about choices and the biggest choice is the class you choose - you should be able to change it.  

This is a game about choices and consequences.  Why you can't live with the consequences due to your choices is beyond me ...

[mass effect samurai]

Kronner wrote...

Should you also be able to change your face? Gender? Where do you draw the line. What are you doing for 50 hours anyway? Changing class mid-game is just stupid idea.

This is the same as Schumacher saying that F1 game simulators are stupid.  Of course they are stupid for him as he drives F1 cars all day long.  You play ME2 all day long for years....

This is the first good point you've raised.  Why should you not be able to change your face or gender?  That should be more than possible in a universe where people can create singularities. 

Or do you and your lilliputian intellect disagree?

[Stazro]

Let's try not to offend anyone, shall we.



From the pragmatic side I have to say: Get over it. It's not how games are designed and that's something that won't change. You say you want to play 100 % of the game. I hate to break it to you, but that's just not possible in one playthrough anyway. The game isn't designed for that.

You say you can't afford to play a game more than once, well I can't afford to buy a game to just play it once.

[Ahglock]

He is just a troll folks, ignore and report him.

[Praetor Knight]

Regarding being a completionist, the only achievement I'm missing is the Warp one of ME2, this is on the 360 for both ME games combined, I've probably spent months playing 3-5 hours at a time sometimes, other times 1 hour at a time.

Either way a great game like this can getting a tad addicting, but it's great to escape reality every now and then into something believable like the ME Universe, for example Fallout or Oblivion is pretty much all fun fantasy to me.

[Mocker22]

It sounds to me like the OP doesn't like RPGs for what they are and was looking for a futuritic sooter. Why not try Bioshock. SOOOO many people now think that games like Titans quest and diablo 2 are RPGS. THEY ARE NOT. They are hack and slash, its very dfferent IMO. I can just imagine the OP trying to get through a good BGII playthrough yikes. "omg everyone keeps killing me, why doesn't it scale to my level 7"



You should be aware that bioware has sated many times they want and expect people to play the game multple times because each expirirence will be significantly dfferent. Because of class, squadmaes, paragon vs renegade, different romance options etc. Also how would you even know if you like a class? You say 3 hours is an eternity but it takes me 10+ to even fully realize a classes potential and decide if it fits me. How wuld you even know how to spec or how to play your character. Many of the best class abilities have a learning curve to be sure. Uneducated charging is a great way to condemn a Vanguard forever.

[Mocker22]

Stazro wrote...

Let's try not to offend anyone, shall we.

From the pragmatic side I have to say: Get over it. It's not how games are designed and that's something that won't change. You say you want to play 100 % of the game. I hate to break it to you, but that's just not possible in one playthrough anyway. The game isn't designed for that.
You say you can't afford to play a game more than once, well I can't afford to buy a game to just play it once.

Agree completely. I get EXTREMELY upset if i spend $50-60 on a game and only get 1 playthrough. Bioware games, more then any other company, I have gtten my monies worth 100x over.

[mass effect samurai]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

I'm a completionist too... When I got the game I decided to play through it at least 6 times because I feel that each class offers a different experience and that each experience would be incomplete without finishing each playthrough in full. I'm 2/3s of my way through this right now and I've never once felt the need to switch classes in the middle of a campaign.

As it's been said, ME2 already gives a lot more freedom then most comparable games, in terms of character re-spec'ing. Also, completionists approach games the way they do because they feel that certain games are worth putting the time into to get the full experience out of them... I don't understand why you are so adamant in saying that you are a ME2 completionist if clearly you are not enjoying the game enough to play through the campaign more than once.

I believe that inadvertently you've validated every single one of my points.  I rest my case.

[mass effect samurai]

Brock22 wrote...

Stazro wrote...

Let's try not to offend anyone, shall we.

From the pragmatic side I have to say: Get over it. It's not how games are designed and that's something that won't change. You say you want to play 100 % of the game. I hate to break it to you, but that's just not possible in one playthrough anyway. The game isn't designed for that.
You say you can't afford to play a game more than once, well I can't afford to buy a game to just play it once.

Agree completely. I get EXTREMELY upset if i spend $50-60 on a game and only get 1 playthrough. Bioware games, more then any other company, I have gtten my monies worth 100x over.

But you're willing pay $50 to watch a movie with your family that only lasts 2 hours and you can only see once?   

Do you see any logic to that?  

Some games only offer 10 hours of gameplay compared to 50 for ME2 so in the 50 hours.  You should able to experience 100% of the game in 50 hours - not being able to do so is poor design.  Being able to experience only 1/6 of the classes is horrible design.  Logic dictates that, not me!

Can someone PLEASE make a valid argument as to why they shouldn't offer that other than your personal opinion which is biased by the fact that you're one of the hundred people on the planet that have played the game several times and played with all classes?  I'm willing to bet that even Bioware staff (and their testers) have played the game less times than most of you!

Modifié par mass effect samurai, 30 novembre 2010 - 05:00 .

[Locutus_of_BORG]

mass effect samurai wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

I'm a completionist too... When I got the game I decided to play through it at least 6 times because I feel that each class offers a different experience and that each experience would be incomplete without finishing each playthrough in full. I'm 2/3s of my way through this right now and I've never once felt the need to switch classes in the middle of a campaign.

As it's been said, ME2 already gives a lot more freedom then most comparable games, in terms of character re-spec'ing. Also, completionists approach games the way they do because they feel that certain games are worth putting the time into to get the full experience out of them... I don't understand why you are so adamant in saying that you are a ME2 completionist if clearly you are not enjoying the game enough to play through the campaign more than once.

I believe that inadvertently you've validated every single one of my points.  I rest my case.

^Read it again. I did no such thing.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 30 novembre 2010 - 05:01 .

[Vindicare175]

Its not gonna happen anytime in the near future that you'll be able to switch classes mid-game , and as someone as already stated Bioware games were MEAN'T to be played numerous times you don't just play mass effect once and toss it aside you play it over and over to try out a different class / gender try different renegade/paragon options etc.

[mass effect samurai]

Brock22 wrote...

It sounds to me like the OP doesn't like RPGs for what they are and was looking for a futuritic sooter. Why not try Bioshock. SOOOO many people now think that games like Titans quest and diablo 2 are RPGS. THEY ARE NOT. They are hack and slash, its very dfferent IMO. I can just imagine the OP trying to get through a good BGII playthrough yikes. "omg everyone keeps killing me, why doesn't it scale to my level 7"

You should be aware that bioware has sated many times they want and expect people to play the game multple times because each expirirence will be significantly dfferent. Because of class, squadmaes, paragon vs renegade, different romance options etc. Also how would you even know if you like a class? You say 3 hours is an eternity but it takes me 10+ to even fully realize a classes potential and decide if it fits me. How wuld you even know how to spec or how to play your character. Many of the best class abilities have a learning curve to be sure. Uneducated charging is a great way to condemn a Vanguard forever.

Actually I only play paragon, I wish there was a middle of the road option - you can either be an angel or the devil.  Well, that's not too realistic.  With every Bioware game I only have one option that matches my character.  The choices have become irrelevant except for romance.  I also prefer Fable's choices where there's no right or wrong - just your personal preference.  Bioware, please take heed and try to expand the morality choices for ME3 - the crystal clear good or bad is just not enough. 

[Vindicare175]

mass effect samurai wrote...

Brock22 wrote...

It sounds to me like the OP doesn't like RPGs for what they are and was looking for a futuritic sooter. Why not try Bioshock. SOOOO many people now think that games like Titans quest and diablo 2 are RPGS. THEY ARE NOT. They are hack and slash, its very dfferent IMO. I can just imagine the OP trying to get through a good BGII playthrough yikes. "omg everyone keeps killing me, why doesn't it scale to my level 7"

You should be aware that bioware has sated many times they want and expect people to play the game multple times because each expirirence will be significantly dfferent. Because of class, squadmaes, paragon vs renegade, different romance options etc. Also how would you even know if you like a class? You say 3 hours is an eternity but it takes me 10+ to even fully realize a classes potential and decide if it fits me. How wuld you even know how to spec or how to play your character. Many of the best class abilities have a learning curve to be sure. Uneducated charging is a great way to condemn a Vanguard forever.

Actually I only play paragon, I wish there was a middle of the road option - you can either be an angel or the devil.  Well, that's not too realistic.  With every Bioware game I only have one option that matches my character.  The choices have become irrelevant except for romance.  I also prefer Fable's choices where there's no right or wrong - just your personal preference.  Bioware, please take heed and try to expand the morality choices for ME3 - the crystal clear good or bad is just not enough. 

Wrong , in ME / ME2 you can be a Neutral type of character as well.

In Fable it  IS Evil or Good there is no neutral every quest gives you ether 1 way to do it or a good / evil options ie Kill the peasant or Save Him type of deal.

Modifié par Vindicare175, 30 novembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[mass effect samurai]

Neutral has zero impact so it's not really not a viable option.