44 réponses à ce sujet

[Zaxares]

I almost always pick Throw Field. I use Throw more as a crowd control ability than a damaging one, and having Throw Field, Pull Field and Singularity on an Adept makes Husk battle utterly hilarious. XD

[miltos33]

Throw doesn't have to be evolved to Heavy Throw to knock targets off ledges for automatic kills. It does a pretty good job anyway. On the other hand, Throw Field can give you better crowd control.

[khevan]

B1NARY C0DE wrote...

khevan wrote...

B1NARY C0DE wrote...

Ahglock wrote...

kstarler wrote...

When playing an Adept, I use Heavy Throw, because I already have Pull Field and Singularity (and, in my opinion, it's more fun). As a Sentinel, I use Throw Field, because the other two abilities aren't available for husks/CC. And I too would like to see greater physics damage. At the very least, 1200 newtons of force should break some bones and force an enemy out of the fight, if not kill them outright. Especially if you're throwing them into a wall/crate/etc. But even if it doesn't, throwing guys off balconies and bridges is still plenty fun for me.

Actually 1200 newtons of force unless focussed into a really small point wont do crap on its own.  I had a thread about this a bit ago asking for science types, but punches easily get into 5,000+ newtons of force range, a tackle from a linebacker 10's of thousands of newtons of force.  They could have added a 0 and it would still be unimpressive.  The only "explanation" that makes it work to some degree is the idea that before the hit push reduces the mass of the target down quite a bit so the target goes flying across the room.

or it is a constant force on the target not a quick strike 

1200 Newtons of force in a constant push isn't that impressive either.  Think of the force behind a punch, and make it a constant force.  Would it throw you across the room?  No.  Might knock you down, might not, depending on your balance, but it won't throw you into orbit.  And that's in the 5000+ newton range, not 1200.   The numbers just seem skewed somehow.

So you are saying if a constant force of 2646lbs hit you entire body you would remain standing indefinitely. 

khevan wrote...
Edit:  Just for some verification, I found a website talking about whiplash, and the forces involved.  It says that soft tissue damage can occur at forces as low as 1200 Newtons in a car crash.  That sounds impressive, but then it says that 1500 newtons of force was created in a car crash at 8 miles per hour.  That's not a whole lotta force, certainly not enough to give the effects we see in-game.

Linkage to the site:  http://www.wowchirop...-back-pain.html

Again you're talking about a quick hit not a constant force.  Lets see you try and stand in one place when a car is trying to push you at 8mph. 

Btw I'm just bored I just need something to do so why not argue on the internet. 

Heh, no worries.  As long as it don't get personal, arguing on the internet is a fun (if ultimately useless) pasttime.

The force equivalent to a car going 8 miles an hour would knock a person off their feet, push them along at 8 miles an hour....which is a fairly slow run.  Throw as shown in game sends a person flying at many times that speed, so it would require a much higher constant force, or an even higher momentary force.  We all see what throw does in game, so that's without question.  Thus, the numbers are off.  That was my only real point.

[Knoll Argonar]

I always thought that the cool thing about mass effect fields is that you're able not only to create forces from a distance but also modifying MASS in the process.

That means that 1200 N maybe wouldn't throw away someone with 80 Kilograms (sorry for my english and the units I use, i'm spanish), but hell yeah it would space a nearly 1 Kg body away.

F = m.a FTW
And 1200 m/s^2 of effective acceleration is A LOT.

Anyway, back to the topic, I level Throw to Throw Field to my allies, but my Adept uses Heavy Throw. Pull does the crowd fighting well enought.

Modifié par Knoll Argonar, 05 décembre 2010 - 12:45 .

[khevan]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

I always thought that the cool thing about mass effect fields is that you're able not only to create forces from a distance but also modifying MASS in the process.

That means that 1200 N maybe wouldn't throw away someone with 80 Kilograms (sorry for my english and the units I use, i'm spanish), but hell yeah it would space a nearly 1 Kg body away.

F = m.a FTW
And 1200 m/s^2 of effective acceleration is A LOT.

Anyway, back to the topic, I level Throw to Throw Field to my allies, but my Adept uses Heavy Throw. Pull does the crowd fighting well enought.

While you are correct with the idea that a 1200 N force would throw a 1KG body a fair distance, the in-game explanation for the Throw power makes no mention of a mass reducing effect on the target.  It's supposed to be just a strong biotic "push."  I just think it's an oversight by the writers of the skill descriptions.  Instead of trying to reconcile the discrepancy using in-game lore, I just dismiss it as a "Whoops!"  No big deal, but it is true that the numbers for the force of a biotic throw are off.  *shrug*

[Ahglock]

khevan wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

I always thought that the cool thing about mass effect fields is that you're able not only to create forces from a distance but also modifying MASS in the process.

That means that 1200 N maybe wouldn't throw away someone with 80 Kilograms (sorry for my english and the units I use, i'm spanish), but hell yeah it would space a nearly 1 Kg body away.

F = m.a FTW
And 1200 m/s^2 of effective acceleration is A LOT.

Anyway, back to the topic, I level Throw to Throw Field to my allies, but my Adept uses Heavy Throw. Pull does the crowd fighting well enought.

While you are correct with the idea that a 1200 N force would throw a 1KG body a fair distance, the in-game explanation for the Throw power makes no mention of a mass reducing effect on the target.  It's supposed to be just a strong biotic "push."  I just think it's an oversight by the writers of the skill descriptions.  Instead of trying to reconcile the discrepancy using in-game lore, I just dismiss it as a "Whoops!"  No big deal, but it is true that the numbers for the force of a biotic throw are off.  *shrug*

True.  I just kind of want a change for ME3 where either they bump the numbers quite a bit or they include language about a mass reducing field so the weak sauce force really should throw them like in the game.   

[khevan]

Ahglock wrote...

True.  I just kind of want a change for ME3 where either they bump the numbers quite a bit or they include language about a mass reducing field so the weak sauce force really should throw them like in the game.   

While it'd be nice for the skill description to match in-game observation, I certainly wouldn't care enough to ragequit if it isn't corrected.  It's a minor inconsistancy, and as such, easily ignorable by myself.  I would rather the writers do a better job with ME3's story than worrying about tiny details like this.

BTW, I'm not arguing against having this fixed, by any means, nor am I suggesting that you (or anyone else) would be overly upset if this weren't fixed.  Just wanted to make that clear, so as to not insult anyone unintentionally.

[Knoll Argonar]

But a Mass Effect Field is a Mass Effect Field. It's not "the Force", not a biotic "push" either. Mass effect fields directly affects mass, it's implied on the concept. As it is said in the Codex: "Negative charge decreases mass, positive charge increases it".

Why can "pull" elevate people? Because it reduces it's mass so gravity can't affect it. Slam? It does what pull does and then increases mass so enemies crash just for gravity. Singularity? It creates a vortex with it's own gravity over it.

Throw works the same way, but it also throws away people with a 500, 800, 1200N or whatever force.



That said, there are quite a few things from the Codex that have to be updated: the council entries are the same as in ME1, for example, and we know THAT is not possible on ME2.

[incinerator950]

I go with Heavy Throw.



Then again, I only bother using throw when my life depends on it, or I feel like bowling Husks.

[Tony Gunslinger]

I'm still unclear about newtons, but if we assume that 1200 N can do some serious damage if the target has been affected by an ME field, does that mean that if I use Shockwave, Charge, or Concusive Shot on my target, they get affected by an ME field as well?

[Praetor Knight]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

I'm still unclear about newtons, but if we assume that 1200 N can do some serious damage if the target has been affected by an ME field, does that mean that if I use Shockwave, Charge, or Concusive Shot on my target, they get affected by an ME field as well?

The listed newtons feel a bit underwhelming when seen in action (Dwight Freeney's Quarterback hits/sacks can generate 12,000+ newton force for example),

But to answer your question, Yes, the ME fields like pull, singularity, and slam amplify Throw, Shockwave and Concussive Shot and Charge.

[Tony Gunslinger]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

The listed newtons feel a bit underwhelming when seen in action (Dwight Freeney's Quarterback hits/sacks can generate 12,000+ newton force for example),

But to answer your question, Yes, the ME fields like pull, singularity, and slam amplify Throw, Shockwave and Concussive Shot and Charge.

Right, but my question was (er, trying to be clearer this time): does Shockwave, Concussive Shot and Charge generate an ME field of their own? Concussive Shot isn't even a biotic power, and its 600 newtons is less than a Throw. I've been reading the posts about how a punch is roughly 5000 newtons, and it seems to me that the quicker the duration for the force applied, the more powerful it is, but I'm still not clear about the whole thing. Does 600 newtons applied at .5 secs is better, equal, or worse than 1200 newtons in 1 sec?

Also, I can understand generating ME fields around the target from Throw / Pull / Singularity etc, but powers like Charge and Shockwave only produces pure physical force, and I can't imagine that they actually generate ME fields at a target. It makes sense that Charge would generate an ME field around the caster to alter his/her own mass to accelerate, but then upon impact, does that ME field immediately resets the caster's mass and then apply mass reduction on the target? And Shockwave, I have no idea how it can generate ME fields whatsoever. Just wondering out loud.

[Bozorgmehr]

I think it's far easier. It's about the acceleration (Bioware used Force taking into account the target's mass). Thus an enemy (120 Kg) hit by Heavy Throw (1200 N) will be accelerated 10 m/s; which is pretty good

[Tony Gunslinger]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

I think it's far easier. It's about the acceleration (Bioware used Force taking into account the target's mass). Thus an enemy (120 Kg) hit by Heavy Throw (1200 N) will be accelerated 10 m/s; which is pretty good

That does make sense. This why I got a C in physics . If that's the case, then I wouldn't have to believe Throw would need to generate any ME field, as well as other physical powers in the game for that matter.

[Praetor Knight]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Right, but my question was (er, trying to be clearer this time): does Shockwave, Concussive Shot and Charge generate an ME field of their own? Concussive Shot isn't even a biotic power, and its 600 newtons is less than a Throw. I've been reading the posts about how a punch is roughly 5000 newtons, and it seems to me that the quicker the duration for the force applied, the more powerful it is, but I'm still not clear about the whole thing. Does 600 newtons applied at .5 secs is better, equal, or worse than 1200 newtons in 1 sec?

Oh, I think I get what you want to know (I hope ).

Concussive Shot does not create an ME field, but it could be compared to a 40mm grenade, which is a low-velocity projectile, so the Newton force could be fine (soldiers have survived getting hit by 40mm training rounds in Ft. Bragg.) So I guess you can say that the Concussive Shot explodes on impact, emitting a concussive wave of energy.

But with the biotic powers you mention, shockwave and charge do seem to create an ME field, but the field is pushing against the target, so it is an expanding/repulsive force.

So what is missing in the equation is the rate of acceleration as Bozorgmehr mentioned above.

Also, I can understand generating ME fields around the target from Throw / Pull / Singularity etc, but powers like Charge and Shockwave only produces pure physical force, and I can't imagine that they actually generate ME fields at a target. It makes sense that Charge would generate an ME field around the caster to alter his/her own mass to accelerate, but then upon impact, does that ME field immediately resets the caster's mass and then apply mass reduction on the target? And Shockwave, I have no idea how it can generate ME fields whatsoever. Just wondering out loud.

Going by the Laws of Conservation (like mass-energy), I understand that the caster is transfering his/her energy to the target, so as you say (underlined above), the ME field is modifying how force is being applied to the target, so that caster does not feel much, but the target feels a magnified effect.

But it might not necessarily be a mass reduction, because the target can fly a good distance, the key is how much energy is being transfered to the target, and how fast.

[Tony Gunslinger]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Right, but my question was (er, trying to be clearer this time): does Shockwave, Concussive Shot and Charge generate an ME field of their own? Concussive Shot isn't even a biotic power, and its 600 newtons is less than a Throw. I've been reading the posts about how a punch is roughly 5000 newtons, and it seems to me that the quicker the duration for the force applied, the more powerful it is, but I'm still not clear about the whole thing. Does 600 newtons applied at .5 secs is better, equal, or worse than 1200 newtons in 1 sec?

Oh, I think I get what you want to know (I hope ).

Concussive Shot does not create an ME field, but it could be compared to a 40mm grenade, which is a low-velocity projectile, so the Newton force could be fine (soldiers have survived getting hit by 40mm training rounds in Ft. Bragg.) So I guess you can say that the Concussive Shot explodes on impact, emitting a concussive wave of energy.

But with the biotic powers you mention, shockwave and charge do seem to create an ME field, but the field is pushing against the target, so it is an expanding/repulsive force.

So what is missing in the equation is the rate of acceleration as Bozorgmehr mentioned above.

Also, I can understand generating ME fields around the target from Throw / Pull / Singularity etc, but powers like Charge and Shockwave only produces pure physical force, and I can't imagine that they actually generate ME fields at a target. It makes sense that Charge would generate an ME field around the caster to alter his/her own mass to accelerate, but then upon impact, does that ME field immediately resets the caster's mass and then apply mass reduction on the target? And Shockwave, I have no idea how it can generate ME fields whatsoever. Just wondering out loud.

Going by the Laws of Conservation (like mass-energy), I understand that the caster is transfering his/her energy to the target, so as you say (underlined above), the ME field is modifying how force is being applied to the target, so that caster does not feel much, but the target feels a magnified effect.

But it might not necessarily be a mass reduction, because the target can fly a good distance, the key is how much energy is being transfered to the target, and how fast.

Thank you, I'm beginning to understand my own confusion:D. ME fields changes mass, not force (well, not directly), in which I got mixed up when I read about newtons in those powers.

[Praetor Knight]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Thank you, I'm beginning to understand my own confusion:D. ME fields changes mass, not force (well, not directly), in which I got mixed up when I read about newtons in those powers.

You're welcome. I'm happy to help .

[SirValeq]

Does Throw stagger protected enemies?

AoE staggers are good, no?

[thisisme8]

iLikeBWgames wrote...

Does Throw stagger protected enemies?
AoE staggers are good, no?

Yes.

[Scrith]

Haha, its rather amusing this thread turned into a physics discussion. But I'll go with the theory that the mass effect field of the throw makes the object weightless. Look at Pull, for example. the victim is unaffected by gravtiy.

I believe the throw reduces the object's mass, accerlerates it to velocity with the 1200 newtons then releases it.