82 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaron Oberyn]

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who saw it this way.



Take notes Bioware. You - Yes YOU SIR/MA'AM! You need to read this!



-Polite

[Ballz Noble]

I have a feeling the reapers will attack earth. That will be scary!

[praetor_alpha]

Ballz Noble wrote...

I have a feeling the reapers will attack earth. That will be scary!

To me, that won't be scary, but expected.

[PARAGON87]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Seriously, though, think about it.  They are capable of mind control.  They are each made of millions of dead sentient beings fused with cold machinery.  They are a mile long and have weapons that can cut through kinetic barriers like a hot knife through butter.  They have the power to twist living, thinking creatures into grotesque, mindless monsters.  They are perhaps billions of years old, hyper-intelligent, and have a thought process that is entirely alien to us.  Their motives and origins are unknown.  They are gods of destruction, and they have been subtly guiding us towards their desired end since we first reached the starts.

Now, why the hell am I not scared to death of these guys?

Now on top of that thow in the sheer firepower of these things.  Throw in their numbers.  Throw in the fact that they have the power to pretty much own every fleet ever constructed with or without their crazy techno voodoo.

Holy crap, right?  Problem is, playing these games hasn't made me feel that so far.  The epic level of hell these babies can raise has only been hinted at.

You brought up the main points of why the whole Shepard-Sovereign convo and the Shepard-Vigil convo nearly gave me nightmares, and it still gives me chills on each subsequent playthrough of ME1.

But ME2 changed that, now the focus shifted towards the Collectors, and I didn't fear really the Reapers anymore, I started to fear the complacancy and ignorance of all my friends in the story around me, mainly the Alliance and Council races.  

I hope that this fear is rekindled in ME3, like how a missing data cache of a Prothean camera left running during the Reaper onslaught is found, and the true horror of a Reaper invasion is revealed to all in frightening detail.

Then the turian councellor will realize that it would take more than airquotes to stop the Reapers from coming.

[dude527]

I just think we need the Reapers, period. I didn't feel much Reaper in Mass Effect 2. Harbinger was always present on the battlefield, but did Shepard ever acknowledge or wonder as to what the f*** Harbinger was in, for instance, character conversations? No. Harbinger failed as a Reaper. It was randomly introduced to taunt Shepard, and never concluded or revealed properly. Besides the dead Reaper, there were none in Mass Effect 2, as far as I'm concerned. It was all about the faceless, not-intimidating Collectors and their connection with the Reapers, yet not directly about either parties. What Mass Effect 2 needed, in my eyes, was a plot... Let's be honest: That game was 15% finding a way through the Omega 4 relay, 80% squad-building, and 2% random exploration, 2% preparing to enter the suicide mission, and 1% sex with Miranda.



All I'm trying to say was that Mass Effect 2 was really about our squad. As a direct result, the main narrative suffered; you know your objective pretty much by the end of Freedom's Progress: To find a way through the Omega 4 relay and stop the Collectors. The fact that the Collectors were actually the Protheans repurposed for Reaper use was a nice twist, but it never had any impact on the narrative as, again, the game was about stopping the Collectors, not their masters. The focus on our squad eliminated our chance to have Mass Effect-level storytelling and an antagonist worth beating. The recruitment and loyalty missions were awesome, but it'd be amazing to have that, on top of the storytelling of Mass Effect. Tell a real story, not one only there to give us a reason to recruit a squad.

[Commander Steve]

i think it needs to be scary simply because it brings out those BA moments alot more. the horrifying reapers close in on earth, all defense crush, the only sound being the cold hum of their engines and the dreadful noise of their mass accelerators firing up, all the while harbinger coldly proclaims "the cycle will continue." then on all the radio frequencys, you here... "no" THEN BAM normandy flies in with krogan/quarian/rachni fleet and que "the end run" track. that would be the greatest freeking ending of any video game for all time. they need to make the enemy scary like that just to bring it up. i mean me 2, the suicide mission was tense, and everytime one of those scripted moments came up i was dam sure i was going to lose somebody. but that was just tension. the reapers need to feel undefeatable, that final end, like trying to fite against god to stop the apocalypse, like you KNOW your going to lose before you realize oh wait im shepard. and yes i too was pissed when they abandoned sovreigns cold indifference for harbingers ASSUMING CONTROL WRARRRRR LOOK AT MEE IMM REAPER PRESERVE BODY HURT YOU WRARRRR!!!!

[FoxShadowblade]

dude527 wrote...

 and 1% sex with Miranda.

Hey, stop complaining, that's the best part.

On a more serious note, Mass Effect 2(While it had a plot, though it was a step down from "SAVE THE GALAXY SHEPARD" Plot of ME1), is much like every other second step in a trilogy. It explored less of how you can save the galaxy and more on character and relationship development. ME1 had a great cast, don't get me wrong, but you talked to them meaningfully...five times, if your lucky.

ME2 Introduced interesting characters with backstories that spanned centuries or even decades and let you talk to them, repeatedly. I have played ME1 through 11 times(6 classes, 1 renegade soldier, and achievements), and not once did I play it for the characters, merely to get to the second one. I've played ME2..hell, 20-25 times to discover EVERYTHING about EVERY squadmate. And let's face it, your up against a suicide mission, a plot device that never fails to entertain.

Call me obsessed, I enjoyed the character developement, made the sequel much more real and enjoyable for me. The first one lacked the attachment of the second, but the plot itself was..a bit more interesting. I'm HOPING BioWare will somehow blend both and make the third the 'epic conclusion' they have promised.

[Lunatic LK47]

mrsph wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Have you read Retribution?

Yeah, it was horrifically bad.

If you're talking about the novel as a whole, I wholeheartedly agree.

[dude527]

FoxShadowblade wrote...

dude527 wrote...

 and 1% sex with Miranda.

Hey, stop complaining, that's the best part.

On a more serious note, Mass Effect 2(While it had a plot, though it was a step down from "SAVE THE GALAXY SHEPARD" Plot of ME1), is much like every other second step in a trilogy. It explored less of how you can save the galaxy and more on character and relationship development. ME1 had a great cast, don't get me wrong, but you talked to them meaningfully...five times, if your lucky.

ME2 Introduced interesting characters with backstories that spanned centuries or even decades and let you talk to them, repeatedly. I have played ME1 through 11 times(6 classes, 1 renegade soldier, and achievements), and not once did I play it for the characters, merely to get to the second one. I've played ME2..hell, 20-25 times to discover EVERYTHING about EVERY squadmate. And let's face it, your up against a suicide mission, a plot device that never fails to entertain.

Call me obsessed, I enjoyed the character developement, made the sequel much more real and enjoyable for me. The first one lacked the attachment of the second, but the plot itself was..a bit more interesting. I'm HOPING BioWare will somehow blend both and make the third the 'epic conclusion' they have promised.

This is EXACTLY what I was saying.  I, however, preferred the storytelling of Mass Effect to the characters of Mass Effect 2.  I mean hell, in the character development department, Mass Effect 2 is probably the best game I have ever played.  However, the only thing I didn't enjoy is how that close-knit squad bond cost us a decent plotline.  You literally only have five missions directly relating to the main plot (I could be counting wrong... Freedom's Progress, Horizon, derelict Collector ship, dead Reaper, suicide mission).  And let's face it: From the end of Freedom's Progress, when you meet the Collectors, you can gauge the other five missions pretty easily: Horizon, the Collector ship, and the dead Reaper are all "means-to-an-end" missions, in that rather than being self-contained, interesting ventures, they were all about figuring out a way through the Omega 4 Relay, something we knew we were supposed to do from the end of Freedom's Progress.  It's all just very phoned in and not expanded very clearly: Who is Harbinger?  What is with this "Human-Reaper"?  How does this bring us any closer to stopping the Reapers?  It's uninteresting, brief, and predictable.  I enjoyed the atmosphere and pacing, but hated the brevity.  And all this simply to let us have a close-knit squad.  At the very least it succeeded in giving us our amazing squad, but my only problem with that is that they can almost all be killed, yet carrying the profile over to Mass Effect 3 will still be possible, implying none of this squad will be in that game (implying, not verifying).

I guess my point here is that the reason the Reapers weren't scary is that, as established, the game is about our squad: Assembling them, preparing them, and then possibly watching them die.  This eliminated any use of an antagonist or main plot aside from our brief five missions.  I think if the main story was a bit more involved - Harbinger being an actual main antagonist, and not simply a battlefield annoyance - he could have been intimidating.

[Lunatic LK47]

dude527 wrote...
This is EXACTLY what I was saying.  I, however, preferred the storytelling of Mass Effect to the characters of Mass Effect 2.  I mean hell, in the character development department, Mass Effect 2 is probably the best game I have ever played.  However, the only thing I didn't enjoy is how that close-knit squad bond cost us a decent plotline.  You literally only have five missions directly relating to the main plot (I could be counting wrong... Freedom's Progress, Horizon, derelict Collector ship, dead Reaper, suicide mission).  And let's face it: From the end of Freedom's Progress, when you meet the Collectors, you can gauge the other five missions pretty easily: Horizon, the Collector ship, and the dead Reaper are all "means-to-an-end" missions, in that rather than being self-contained, interesting ventures, they were all about figuring out a way through the Omega 4 Relay, something we knew we were supposed to do from the end of Freedom's Progress.  It's all just very phoned in and not expanded very clearly: Who is Harbinger?  What is with this "Human-Reaper"?  How does this bring us any closer to stopping the Reapers?  It's uninteresting, brief, and predictable.  I enjoyed the atmosphere and pacing, but hated the brevity.  And all this simply to let us have a close-knit squad.  At the very least it succeeded in giving us our amazing squad, but my only problem with that is that they can almost all be killed, yet carrying the profile over to Mass Effect 3 will still be possible, implying none of this squad will be in that game (implying, not verifying).

I guess my point here is that the reason the Reapers weren't scary is that, as established, the game is about our squad: Assembling them, preparing them, and then possibly watching them die.  This eliminated any use of an antagonist or main plot aside from our brief five missions.  I think if the main story was a bit more involved - Harbinger being an actual main antagonist, and not simply a battlefield annoyance - he could have been intimidating.

I'm partially disappointed myself, but on the other hand, if this was the only way we could actually get squadmates we care about, I'll go for it. You can have the best plot in the world, but if you don't like any of the characters at all, the story is just going to fall flat on its face.

[Sinapus]

Maybe Harbinger got the job because he drew the shortest straw or the other Reapers wanted him distracted?

[AdmiralCheez]

Too much stuff in here I agree with to quote. Yes, ME2 was awesome and perhaps the most personal, moving game I've ever played. And yes, I love the entire crew to pieces, but I desperately wish the main plot had been an ounce stronger. If ME3 can keep the level of character development as high as it was in ME2 and whip up an epic plot to go with it, I will gladly declare it the Best Game Ever. It'd be like playing ME1 and 2, minus all the bits that sucked, at the same time. Hellz yeah!



But remember, kids! An epic plot requires an epic villain, one that that actively f*cks your sh*t up, creating a sense of fear and urgency that keeps the story rolling.



And dude527, every time you mention none of the ME2 squad coming back, I die a little inside. :c

[AdmiralCheez]

Sinapus wrote...

Maybe Harbinger got the job because he drew the shortest straw or the other Reapers wanted him distracted?

Yeah, maybe he was the village idiot or something and they were looking for a way to get rid of him.

"Hey, Harbinger!  That Commander Shepard thinks he's so tough!  Why don't you show him who's boss?"

[The Good Shephard]

I'll admit, Reapers did have a more terrifying vibe in ME1 (probably because we didn't know much other than they're big, ancient, and are oh-so-fond of galactic extinctions).

ME2 seemed to reveal more of what they were and their capabilities, thus removing much of the fear. Not that we still understand them fully, but a clear picture seems to be forming.

Still, these new discoveries have some terrifying potential for ME3. For example, how we view the world through our Shepard's perspective. One of my favorite moments in Overlord was the Matrix-esque connection, allowing Shepard to view the world as David does. It was cool, trippy, and a little unerving at times.

This might just be me, but the process by which Cerberus revived Shepard may have enabled this experience. For all we know they may have used a little Reaper tech in the process.

Now, if David could alter Shepard's sensory perception, who's to say the Reapers may not catch wise? Maybe something happens early in ME3 and everything after that seems a little... off.

Characters you thought dead start appearing and interacting with the world. Subtle signs and sounds keep appearing and disappearing. You enter entire sequences of paranoid introspection, wondering what that voice is saying exactly? 

I guess what I'm saying is that one method to hammer home the terror of their beings is to show how they can defeat you without having to actually defeat you.      
  

[Swerodent]

I think that Bioware should take notes from Amnesia - The Dark Descent. That game scares me ****less.



A big part of it is that there is no way to fight the monster, you gotta run, fast! Now this wouldn´t work for ME3 since Shep is "awesome-super-commando". But how about being hunted by the reapers and you currently have no way of fighting back? Shep must stay one step ahead of death until she/he can find some way to stop them.



And that solution better not be a bigger gun...

[Nixyss]

Swerodent wrote...

I think that Bioware should take notes from Amnesia - The Dark Descent. That game scares me ****less.

A big part of it is that there is no way to fight the monster, you gotta run, fast! Now this wouldn´t work for ME3 since Shep is "awesome-super-commando". But how about being hunted by the reapers and you currently have no way of fighting back? Shep must stay one step ahead of death until she/he can find some way to stop them.

And that solution better not be a bigger gun...

ME is  based on choices and using Swerodent's logic its not to hard to get the fear back into the player. The plot just needs something bad to happen, I mean real bad. Like second hour of the the game you have the choice to confront a reaper or reapers....or spend a bunch of time building strength or reserching a new tactic or whatever. Now that most of us are desesitized to the reapers as being much of a threat a lot of us will just choose to attack right away...thinking we will save more lives blah blah blah i am a super human guy/girl with a BA ship that is indestructable. Then you find out you were wrong about those two things squadmates die terrible things happen you feel very insecure and powerless. The only chocie now would be to run and try to rebuild your strength while the reapers kill everything. ME has a tendency to make you belive that you are invincible especially in the ME2. You never really feel threatend directly you are far too powerfull. But in this case becasue of your arrogance billions of people die and the galaxy has become a much more lonely place. Not only that but you know if the reapers find you its game over.....long story short they just need to make good on a frew of there promises.

[Pedro Costa]

Sovereign was much more intimidating. It was a real foe, a heartless superior existence who didn't give a crap about the lower life forms, such as Shepard. His conversations were always menacing and short, again as I expected of a foe who didn't care about the lesser beings it was going to destroy...

One who said their reasons couldn't be understood by our intelligence, and which I bought into. They were cybernetic, they're bound by logic and we are more bound to our emotions, they lived for millions and millions of years already, therefore their knowledge should be uncomprehensively superior...



...And in comes Harbinger. With its ridiculous dialogues, and the Reaper's motives no longer are incomprehensible, they are instead predictable.

Every time I saw Harbinger on the field I didn't feel intimidated, I felt like laughing. "I know you feel this!"... yeah, so what? I still cleared the field of your minions and kicked your ass more times than the ones I got hit.

"We are your salvation through destruction"... wow, is that what Sovereign thought I couldn't comprehend? Is that the reasoning of a collective who lived on for billions of years? ...disappointing



They are now generic villain with good intentions # 68274957, their threat level came down quite a lot of notches.



Still, have to admit, the dead Reaper... kept me on my toes.

[Aigyl]

I think Harbinger was meant to be scary by combining his constant attacks with Sovereign's taunts. I mean, how could you mess up with Sovereign-style intimidates? "You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."

Harbinger was meant to be this alien god-like enemy you could never destroy. No matter what you did, no matter how many times you killed him, he would just keep coming again, and again, and again. He was inevitable. Throw some Sovereign into the mix and what could go wrong?

"ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL"

"I KNOW YOU FEEL THIS"

I liked his "Salvation through destruction" line though, I thought that was a pretty cool Harby moment. The Dead Reaper was creepy at the start before it turned into a zombie shootout at least. Dead Gods can still dream...

[CaptainZaysh]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

I'm partially disappointed myself, but on the other hand, if this was the only way we could actually get squadmates we care about, I'll go for it. You can have the best plot in the world, but if you don't like any of the characters at all, the story is just going to fall flat on its face.

You're looking at it wrong.  Plot is character, character is plot.  Characters should develop in response to the events of the main plot, not through expository dialogue.

[Trackrtar]

Harbinger's final monologue right before he leaves the collectors to die is far more terrifying than anything else he said during the game. He sounded a lot like Sovereign then.

[Luigitornado]

Yeah sure, the more menacing the better.



Seeing all the Reapers at the end was pretty ominous. Seeing people being processed at the Collectors' base was pretty disturbing. Boarding the dead Reaper, and listening to the logs was pretty f'd up.



I feels like this was the middle act of a great movie...because it was. ME established the threat of Sovereign and the immediate return of the Reapers, which was dealt with. ME2 took a break from a direct Reaper threat, and established the threat of the Collectors abducting human colonies, which was dealt with. Now we are left with ME3...which might be another "stop the Reapers return...", OR they will return with a climax of some huge galactic battle with mass causalities. One thing is for sure, ME2 was setting up the return of the Reapers and the cycle of death they are pursuing.

[CPT Eightball]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Well Sovereign was really terrifying in ME1 and made the reapers look almost invincible. Harbinger in ME2 made the reapers look less menacing and stupid with his idiotic taunts. But i got to admit that the dead reaper to me was still pretty scary seeing how it can still brainwash and indoctrinate the scientists after being dead for 37 million years.

I've said this before, and I gotta say it again. Bioware needs better writers. Mass Effect 2 had some rather annoying/ retarded scripting that lead to an 'annyoing' Reaper rather than a menacing one.
Hopefully this will be rectified in Mass Effect 3.

They need to bring to light the fact that when Shepard killed the 3 reapers, it was all due to special circumstance.

1. The reaper 'jumped into' Saren > Saren's death = Sovereign's death (not only that, but it was surrounded by the entire Citadel fleet)
2. The reaper floating just outside the brown dwarf had a gaping hole through it already
3. The reaper at the Collector base wasn't even fully built


What's going to happen when you have to face off against a fully functional reaper? one that isn't being rushed? one that isn't being attacked by the fleet? one that is bigger than Sovereign?

[Dean_the_Young]

If every Harbinger was a boss in and of itself, rather than a glorified lieutenant-level enemy with unique battlecries and a total 'shoot me now for the next four seconds' pause, he would have been far more intimidating. Especially if he sometimes switched to another Collector for flanking advantage, and moved even faster.