82 réponses à ce sujet

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^I don't think the dispute is whether Shep killed Reapers through special circumstances or not. I think it's the fact that full-strength Reapers such as Sov. and Harb. basically allow themselves to be either outwitted (Sovereign) or defeated outright (Harbringer) by basically a single man. In this case, Sovereign's case might be arguable, but Harbringer's is not, as Harbringer actually engages (repeatedly) in mano-a-mano combat with Sheppard and loses every time. This was kind of a mistake on BW's part in ME2, because it makes it seem like Reapers are actually kind of stupid.

In the case of Harbringer in ME2, it probably would've been wiser to clarify whether Shep was really fighting Harbringer, or just the Collector General (under orders from Harbringer). If it was the General himself, then at least the strategic/tactical deficiency could be hand-waved more easily.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 30 novembre 2010 - 03:39 .

[onelifecrisis]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

^I don't think the dispute is whether Shep killed Reapers through special circumstances or not. I think it's the fact that full-strength Reapers such as Sov. and Harb. basically allow themselves to be either outwitted (Sovereign) or defeated outright (Harbringer) by basically a single man. In this case, Sovereign's case might be arguable, but Harbringer's is not, as Harbringer actually engages (repeatedly) in mano-a-mano combat with Sheppard and loses every time.

Harbinger engages Shepard by possessing a Collector. The Collectors are Protheans that have been repurposed for slave labour, not for combat. Harbinger is using a tool that wasn't designed for the job he's using it for.

[hitorihanzo]

"Trollbringer?" Rofl because it's accurate. That guy just kept talking, even though I kept dropping his Avatar like a bad habit. Hell, Heavy Mechs were scarier than Harbinger was. Sovereign on the other hand, radiated superiority and power. Remember talking to him on Virmire, and after he gets tired of you flapping your gums, blows out the windows in the room, from space? THAT was scary. The Derelict Reaper was terrifying.



I hope Mass Effect 3 can portray an overarching tone of fear. This is the climax of the story. I don't want to be fighting Mercs for the majority of the game.

[Remus Artega]

onelifecrisis wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

^I don't think the dispute is whether Shep killed Reapers through special circumstances or not. I think it's the fact that full-strength Reapers such as Sov. and Harb. basically allow themselves to be either outwitted (Sovereign) or defeated outright (Harbringer) by basically a single man. In this case, Sovereign's case might be arguable, but Harbringer's is not, as Harbringer actually engages (repeatedly) in mano-a-mano combat with Sheppard and loses every time.

Harbinger engages Shepard by possessing a Collector. The Collectors are Protheans that have been repurposed for slave labour, not for combat. Harbinger is using a tool that wasn't designed for the job he's using it for.

Which makes Harbinger an complete idiot...he should not have been implemented in the game in the first place...
Collectors should have been doing all this simply because they were crafted that way so they should fight as an act of self-preservation, and not as someones brainless puppets, to fulfill their initial purpose...

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Remus Artega wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

^I don't think the dispute is whether Shep killed Reapers through special circumstances or not. I think it's the fact that full-strength Reapers such as Sov. and Harb. basically allow themselves to be either outwitted (Sovereign) or defeated outright (Harbringer) by basically a single man. In this case, Sovereign's case might be arguable, but Harbringer's is not, as Harbringer actually engages (repeatedly) in mano-a-mano combat with Sheppard and loses every time.

Harbinger engages Shepard by possessing a Collector. The Collectors are Protheans that have been repurposed for slave labour, not for combat. Harbinger is using a tool that wasn't designed for the job he's using it for.

Which makes Harbinger an complete idiot...he should not have been implemented in the game in the first place...
Collectors should have been doing all this simply because they were crafted that way so they should fight as an act of self-preservation, and not as someones brainless puppets, to fulfill their initial purpose...

That is pretty much the point I was getting at. The bottom line is, the Reapers got to repurpose the Protheans however they liked, to serve whatever purposes they liked, but apparently did a bad job of it, which reflects badly on them. Obviously combat was one of those purposes, because that was the most prominent role the Collectors played in ME2.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 30 novembre 2010 - 05:39 .

[Remus Artega]

With this the Reapers will be taken more seriously and without any loss on their scariness...thinking look what they manage to do to this highly developed beings..they serve them on their own FREE will...

One analogy comes to my mind... woman that is trying to defend herself from the thug(Shepard) by tossing plates (totally useless things aka Collectors) on him...

Modifié par Remus Artega, 30 novembre 2010 - 05:41 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Sovereign was scary.

What Vigil and Ilos showed was scary.



Harbinger and the Collector base was just ridiculous.

ME2 ruined the Reapers for me, they were far more scary when they were unknown monsters, instead of silly one-liner spouting squids who fail at everything.



Hopefully ME3 makes them scary again.

[Mister Mida]

ME Reaper (only AI and tech et all) > ME2 Reaper (milkshake and tech et all).

If the Reapers are going all 'War of the Worlds' (even the remake) style (without the whole sucking fluid out of organics thing) in ME3, I'll be happier than I am now.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 30 novembre 2010 - 05:47 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

I'm not going to lie, they were scary in ME1 when ME2 wasn't out yet. But now in ME2 they seem like a bunch of floating Darth Vaders. You can't deny that in ME1 Sovereign freaked you out. He was the only one we've seen and he was frightening by the way he spoke, and how he described the reapers and their cycle. With Harbinger, it's just like "Oh, it's just another bad guy. We'll beat him. Whatever."

-Polite

My theory is Harbinger suffered from two unfortunate issues, albeit one was less the fault of Bioware and simply a lack of foresight. That one in particular would be "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL!" Any creditability Harbinger may have possessed as a legitimate terror was lost the moment this phrase was repeated because once you become associated with a meme... there is little hope of redemption.

The second fall back is Harbinger, much akin to the Human-Reaper, was easily defeated multiple times. Yes, he may have been in control of an arbitrary Collector, however this still heavliy diminishes his impact. I frequently found myself saying, "Yeah, yeah. I'll kill you in a minute" more often than not irritated and never once intimidated. By comparison, Sovereign was built to be nigh indestructible and immensely powerful. Mass Effect conveyed this relatively well in both minor and major variations. Minor examples would we the Salarian squad that had become indoctrinated. Their description of the ordeal, the faint whispers, the Salarian screaming "Let me out!" It all presented the severity of Sovereign's will. The major depiction is obvious the Battle of the Citadel, wherein Sovereign nearly obliterated the entire Citadel vanguard with little effort and depending on your decision either decimated the remainder or did sizable damage to the Alliance. It took literally everything available to defeat Sovereign and even then his mutation of Saren was likely a contributing factor.

In the end, Sovereign had numerous angles explored to give the illusion it was an indestructible monstrosity, wherein Harbinger was defeated a handful of times and best remembered for ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL! Sorry Hary, you just are never going to be capable of living that one down.

If Bioware desires a frightening angle. They need to revive Mass Effect and gain inspiration. A definite necessity would be originality, as we already have witnessed Sovereign's power and while some elements can certainly be similar. An identical character would be worse. One potential angle to explore is indoctrination of one of your squad. Leave it to hidden choices that are relatively obscure - the less we are expecting, the greater the impact - and you have the basis for something awe inspiring. If they did it to Garrus... man, that has so fantastic potential from a story perspective. Admittedly, the Garrus love in me would be crying "NO, NOT SPACE BATMAN!" however such is the point.

Edit: Oh and do not even get me started on Baby Reapeminator. Seriously, Bioware. What happened there?

Modifié par Bourne Endeavor, 30 novembre 2010 - 06:03 .

[Talthanar]

Bioware: Go play System Shock 2 then Deadspace. Take what you learn and put it in ME3. Great games, ****** poor conversations. Reapers are silly now much like everyone else has said. Sovvy was quite scary and intimidating. Harby..well he sounds like the little Reaper that everyone beats the crap out of.



How to make ME3 good scary in the beginning:



Start of game: High ranking people of various species here (going to stick with 3 to keep this short). Big holo-screen similar to beginning of ME2 showing the galaxy. Red dots = reapers blue/green/orange/other color of the rainbow or some mix thereof representing Citadel/Cerberus forces. Red obviously dominates the screen. Clusters of dots disappear as the red rolls further into our galaxy.



Start conversations here:



High ranking random dude/dudette 1: As we can all see this isn't going well. The Reapers are forcing us to one location to easier wipe us out.



HRRD/D2: Yes a classic strategy. Blah blah blah. At this rate we're going to be wiped out in blah blah blah. (TBD by Bioware)



HRRD/D3: Blah blah blah. How are the spectres doing in finding a way to stop the Reapers?



HRRD/D1: We haven't heard anything back yet. We have <name here> searching this location <pops up on map>. Shepard is somewhere in this place <pops up on map>. <Name here> is in the <blank cluster> here. <pops up on map>.



HRRD/D3: I hope they find something soon <more gloom and doom here>.



Scene fades out to Normandy SR2 exterior in space over planet doing flyby.



Shep: Joker, are we there yet?



Joker: Ask me that again and I'll...



Shep: Just give me an answer.



Joker: Right. Ready whenever you are commander.



Scene changes to inside Normandy SR2. Shep in armor packing trademark Alliance POS AR looking like a badass with <insert two squaddies here looking equally badass and maybe a touch attractive too if one is female>.



S: We know why we're here lets get in and out quickly to move to the next planet.



Random Squaddie1: Right boss.



Random Squaddie2: Ready to depart.



insert loading screen to planet here.



show whatever the flying box with legs was here landing.



Game Start!



What player doesn't know at this time is there is a time limit to beat the game (in game time). Real time max should (imo) be around 50 hours. This should hopefully cut down on useless travel or encourage the creation of new technologies to improve speed between systems or the like. (go play Star Control 2 for further questions.) During the game we receive updates as to how thing are going. Also at times we can find ways to deter the reapers to buy more time to achieve final goal of their destruction(?). These ways may include but are not limited to: alliances with other races to fight the big baddies, maybe creation of nasty space anomalies to reclaim chunks of map (eg black hole in a reaper wing's face), or many other various and creative ways to slow an advance.



after enough upgradeage Normandy goes from a humble and speedy frigate to a mac-daddy pimped out Destroyer of Galaxies to take on the Reapers head to head. This is the only way to win the game with the happy ending. Go in without the Anti-Indoctrination hull plating, crew gets indoctrinated, turns, and SR2 gets hosed by Citadel forces which then get mauled by Reapers. Forget the Planet Breaker Rail Gun, go fight Reapers, get hosed cause ya can't crack their hulls. Take too long, Reapers mop up Citadel forces, Normandy puts up a gallant final stand which they lose. Reapers Win.



To make things fair the big necessities will be easily found (plot related). The holding of the Reapers however will be a bit more off the ever proverbial beaten path.

[Luigitornado]

Remus Artega wrote...

With this the Reapers will be taken more seriously and without any loss on their scariness...thinking look what they manage to do to this highly developed beings..they serve them on their own FREE will...

One analogy comes to my mind... woman that is trying to defend herself from the thug(Shepard) by tossing plates (totally useless things aka Collectors) on him...

I don't think the Collectors were created to destroy Shepard, just as a plate is not created for throwing.

[Remus Artega]

Luigitornado wrote...

Remus Artega wrote...

With this the Reapers will be taken more seriously and without any loss on their scariness...thinking look what they manage to do to this highly developed beings..they serve them on their own FREE will...

One analogy comes to my mind... woman that is trying to defend herself from the thug(Shepard) by tossing plates (totally useless things aka Collectors) on him...

I don't think the Collectors were created to destroy Shepard, just as a plate is not created for throwing.

Read it again...that's what I wrote 

[Luigitornado]

Yeah okay. Read it the first time as if you were making fun of the Reapers' "weapon" of choice.

[FoxShadowblade]

dude527 wrote...

This is EXACTLY what I was saying.  I, however, preferred the storytelling of Mass Effect to the characters of Mass Effect 2.  I mean hell, in the character development department, Mass Effect 2 is probably the best game I have ever played.  However, the only thing I didn't enjoy is how that close-knit squad bond cost us a decent plotline.  You literally only have five missions directly relating to the main plot (I could be counting wrong... Freedom's Progress, Horizon, derelict Collector ship, dead Reaper, suicide mission).  And let's face it: From the end of Freedom's Progress, when you meet the Collectors, you can gauge the other five missions pretty easily: Horizon, the Collector ship, and the dead Reaper are all "means-to-an-end" missions, in that rather than being self-contained, interesting ventures, they were all about figuring out a way through the Omega 4 Relay, something we knew we were supposed to do from the end of Freedom's Progress.  It's all just very phoned in and not expanded very clearly: Who is Harbinger?  What is with this "Human-Reaper"?  How does this bring us any closer to stopping the Reapers?  It's uninteresting, brief, and predictable.  I enjoyed the atmosphere and pacing, but hated the brevity.  And all this simply to let us have a close-knit squad.  At the very least it succeeded in giving us our amazing squad, but my only problem with that is that they can almost all be killed, yet carrying the profile over to Mass Effect 3 will still be possible, implying none of this squad will be in that game (implying, not verifying).

I guess my point here is that the reason the Reapers weren't scary is that, as established, the game is about our squad: Assembling them, preparing them, and then possibly watching them die.  This eliminated any use of an antagonist or main plot aside from our brief five missions.  I think if the main story was a bit more involved - Harbinger being an actual main antagonist, and not simply a battlefield annoyance - he could have been intimidating.

You make a good point there, they lack a decent plotline in the second for the sake of development.

And I have no idea how they plan to use the characters in the third one. Obviously, Ash/Kaidan are back, Liara has been finalized, Wrex might join/stay on Tuchanka. Tali and Garrus(And all ME2 squadmates)...I don't know how they are going to do that. Perhaps if some die, you get what didn't die. The max number of squadmates left and Shepard living is two, I believe. Or BioWare will be lame and cut out the characters you just spent FOREVER with and getting to know, and beloved ones like Tali and Garrus.(which would be a bad move, all together)

Yes it seems like they didn't want you to focus on the Reapers in this one, Harbinger was just..meh. "Oh Shepard get angry and yet don't reply and my well-scripted taunts!" -warp-

If him joining the battle might trigger a dialogue or something, much like the conversation with Sovereign on Virmire, it might actually have had a fear effect. But, then again, Reapers always pretty much insult how lesser we are and how doomed we are, or how much better they are. Could get dull after awhile.

Collectors I found interesting, especially after they are revealed as Protheans. They aren't scary at all, but you kind of pity them.(Check out when Harbinger releases control of the C.General) It was an enemy to be interested in, I gotta give BioWare thumbs up for that.

[Sailears]

I've nothing to add (you guys have covered all the important points) other than to "voice" my ageement: the reapers have been trivialised, though not beyond repair.

Actually come to think of it, it began with the Sovereign/Saren boss fight on the citadel. Everything leading up to that was quite intimidating (especially the interaction on Virmire), but that fight was a little comical. Add to that the whole image of the reapers in ME2, and although dangerous they no longer have that image of being "beyond our comprehension".

I think Polite said it best:

PoliteAssasin wrote...

I'm not going to lie, they were scary in ME1 when ME2 wasn't out yet. But now in ME2 they seem like a bunch of floating Darth Vaders. You can't deny that in ME1 Sovereign freaked you out. He was the only one we've seen and he was frightening by the way he spoke, and how he described the reapers and their cycle. With Harbinger, it's just like "Oh, it's just another bad guy. We'll beat him. Whatever."

-Polite

I do hope Bioware will take things a little more seriously in further DLC and ME3, and do justice to the once terrifying entities they created.

[Kasen]

I have to agree with that, Harbinger just didn't strike the same chord that Sovereign did. Now if we open up ME3 with the Reapers tearing the galaxy limb from limb or otherwise showing us why they've been so successful for millions of years, that could change things...

[Lunatic LK47]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

You're looking at it wrong.  Plot is character, character is plot.  Characters should develop in response to the events of the main plot, not through expository dialogue.

I could not get into Citizen Kane mainly because I did not find myself remotely caring about anyone, despite the movie being a "cinematic masterpiece" from a technical standpoint. How is ME1 exactly much different in the expository dialogue department?

Ashley: "Thanks for saving me on your first mission Commander. I strongly dislike aliens because Grand-dad is blacklisted."

Kaidan: "I have a lot of head-aches because of shady biotic conspiracies, got rejected by a girl I liked because I killed a Turian jack-ass."

Garrus: "I know Saren's bad, but bureaucracy is preventing me from doing my job, and it costed me a prime suspect before that."

Wrex: "I found a worthy warrior to fight beside, since I'm too jaded to help my people because my Dad was a moron."

Tali: "You're welcome for the evidence against Saren. All I have is to talk about my people and my Pilgrimage?"

Liara: "I luv learning about Protheans and am secretly obsessed with you."

As it is, you get little less than a five-setence paragraph maximum about their likes and dislikes, and that's about it, not the individuals themselves.  Hell, the last time I found the characters showing any type of fear were the conversations post-Virmire. Sure, while the ME1 characters were likeable in their own right, their development only lasted five conversations onboard the Normandy, and that's about it.  Hell, even Virmire was "Pick whoever you wanted to keep and just leave the other in the dust" despite the dramatic effect of it.

[onelifecrisis]

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

PoliteAssasin wrote...

I'm not going to lie, they were scary in ME1 when ME2 wasn't out yet. But now in ME2 they seem like a bunch of floating Darth Vaders. You can't deny that in ME1 Sovereign freaked you out. He was the only one we've seen and he was frightening by the way he spoke, and how he described the reapers and their cycle. With Harbinger, it's just like "Oh, it's just another bad guy. We'll beat him. Whatever."

-Polite

My theory is Harbinger suffered from two unfortunate issues, albeit one was less the fault of Bioware and simply a lack of foresight. That one in particular would be "ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL!" Any creditability Harbinger may have possessed as a legitimate terror was lost the moment this phrase was repeated because once you become associated with a meme... there is little hope of redemption.

For me "I KNOW YOU FEEL THIS" was the worst. I know BW love innuendo, but having the antagonist spouting it was a terrible idea. In any case I agree that a baddie who repeats the same dialogue over and over is a stupid idea.

Bourne Endeavor wrote...

The second fall back is Harbinger, much akin to the Human-Reaper, was easily defeated multiple times. Yes, he may have been in control of an arbitrary Collector, however this still heavliy diminishes his impact. I frequently found myself saying, "Yeah, yeah. I'll kill you in a minute" more often than not irritated and never once intimidated.

Your opinion seems to be shared by several posters, but I still don't get it. Fighting a possessed Collector =/= fighting Harbinger. It's not like Shepard was in space going toe to toe with a reaper. I agree that the dialogue was terrible, but Shepard's ability to defeat a possessed labor drone with no mind of its own did not, for me, diminish the threat of the reapers. To say that it does is like saying "I am strong enough to break Mike Tyson's toothpicks. Every toothpick he discards, I can break it. Therefore I am not scared of Mike Tyson."

Modifié par onelifecrisis, 01 décembre 2010 - 12:38 .

[1upD]

Overlord wasn't truly 'scary', but I think it got the atmosphere just right. I don't think it would be impossible to have future missions inside of reapers have effects similar to Dead Space or the Half Life mod Nightmare House to make them more intimidating, but it might not be right for the series. It's something to think about.

[Jonathan Shepard]

PoliteAssasin wrote...

I'm not going to lie, they were scary in ME1 when ME2 wasn't out yet. But now in ME2 they seem like a bunch of floating Darth Vaders. You can't deny that in ME1 Sovereign freaked you out. He was the only one we've seen and he was frightening by the way he spoke, and how he described the reapers and their cycle. With Harbinger, it's just like "Oh, it's just another bad guy. We'll beat him. Whatever."

-Polite

Exactly. 

[Destroy Raiden_]

So far the reapers are shaping up to be good on paper bad guys in practice they haven’t been so stellar.



So far they threaten



Harbinger talks smack constantly with little to back it up



They rely too much on husks that are a cross between a zombie and a shibito



They only seem to be capable of telling 2 ships what to do at a time



They’re taking the very slow route. If they where on land and I was waiting for them to show up and attack me I can’t help but thinking they’re taking the slow leaky boat from where ever they’re coming from. For guys who invented the mass relays you’d think they’d be capable of wormhole travel or something.



I’m not a movie writer here but honestly they should use the M rating for all its worth on 3. If I think of past games and movies with horror aspects the Shibito where scary from Siren because they’re people and zombie trapped in the same mind its kind of like watching an insane person they’ll cook, color (if a child), fix things but the minuet they understand a non shibito is close they’ll hunt you down and they still remember how to use guns and other weapons some still talk insanely to you its also rather disturbing that both you and they have what is known as a sight jack. Its basically you link minds with them and see through their eyes and hear through their ears so you can literally watch them hunt down and kill either you or the person you’re trying to protect that’s creepy. Also they can’t die you can only stun them sense the bloody rain keeps them going and eventually will turn you into one of them your characters through out the game are fighting to stay sane it’s a disturbing spiral down for all involved. Parts of The Happening also are geared to mental horror. The overriding of one’s self preservation goes a long way to horrifying if the Reapers could do this even in virus form I might start being impressed.



But on a technology scale they’ve shown very little. It takes next to nothing to blow up a collector laser ship so I’m not holding my breath over whatever new cannon fodder they send our way. I’m half wondering if they even upgraded that ship when they decided to use it? The reapers thanks to Sovereign show they have no weapons beyond ramming and the sound waves they emit if a ship could use the sound to destroy peoples minds that’d be a start but the dock workers on Eden Prime only wound up with hurt ears I don’t think even an ear drum was ruptured. So that’s not looking so good.



Harbinger is getting annoying Everytime he shows up he delivers the same 8 lines and every time he assumes control I just unload a clip or two and that’s it, if that’s how strong he is possessing people I’ve got nothing to worry about when I fight him one on one, infact I’m sure I’ll be disappointed. As far as bad guys the Mechs in MGS where challenging but they where 10 stories tall and could just squash you aside from launching surface to air missiles on you. Sepheroth was a challenge in FF7 and that was between 2 teams he was not an easy fight. I guess Harbinger needs more then one tactic to be applied when killing him. Terminator baby was shoot at the eyes and tubes and that was all! Not a huge feat my 10yr old nephew would get that killed easy.



I guess BW should use the M rating for war zones and battle situations show more and varied situations not just more blood and guts but for instance a reaper could slice someone in half or maybe they have an interesting way of murdering someone they want to make an example of. Grunt gives some gory accounts of what they do to Turians and Salarians show that on screen. So far Specter Girl and Saren have been the best bosses of the series.

[Giggles_Manically]

Harbinger is like a 12 year kid on a soda buzz calling you names on XBOX live.

Real scary.

[AdmiralCheez]

But on a technology scale they’ve shown very little. It takes next to nothing to blow up a collector laser ship so I’m not holding my breath over whatever new cannon fodder they send our way. I’m half wondering if they even upgraded that ship when they decided to use it? The reapers thanks to Sovereign show they have no weapons beyond ramming and the sound waves they emit if a ship could use the sound to destroy peoples minds that’d be a start but the dock workers on Eden Prime only wound up with hurt ears I don’t think even an ear drum was ruptured. So that’s not looking so good.

Actually, Sov shot lasers from his tentacles.  And that "sound" he emitted was the indoctrination signal.  It didn't actually make any noise at all; the effect was entirely mental.

Otherwise, you're right on the money.

[AdmiralCheez]

One potential angle to explore is indoctrination of one of your squad. Leave it to hidden choices that are relatively obscure - the less we are expecting, the greater the impact - and you have the basis for something awe inspiring. If they did it to Garrus... man, that has so fantastic potential from a story perspective. Admittedly, the Garrus love in me would be crying "NO, NOT SPACE BATMAN!" however such is the point.

If that happened, I would cry and rage forever.

Therefore, they should totally do it!  Awesome idea.

[Praetor Knight]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Harbinger is like a 12 year kid on a soda buzz calling you names on XBOX live.

Real scary.

That made me laugh, I'm surprised by how much trash taking they can do. I've watched my brother play multiplayer on different games, then I'd hear something through the headphones and be like  what did he just say?