132 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Who Duncan would support in Orzammar would probably depend on what opinion he'd come to of Harrowmont in previous dealings.



I think his choice in DR would depend on whether he thinks OGB might be useful against the darkspawn in the future, or is an unnecessary risk. Dying to kill Archdemons is fundamentally what the Grey Wardens exist for.

[Dean_the_Young]

I've never been too clear if it was ever clarified, but doesn't the Dark Ritual also sort of imply that anyone could kill the ArchDemon, and not just a Grey Warden? Whether it is or not, simply believing that could tip the balances: three/four wardens is still very few, and changing the fate of the Blight from hinging on four people to hinging on anyone getting a lucky blow could be decisive. Suddenly it won't all matter on one of the remaining Wardens being in the right place at the right time, only on the ArchDemon being in the wrong place at the wrong time.



Dying to kill Archdemons isn't what the Wardens exist for: ending Blights is. It's just that, until now, the only way they knew to do so was sacrifice.

[naledgeborn]

Jacks Smirking Revenge wrote...

Redcliffe: Kill Conner wouldn't risk a valuable party member to a demon nor would he risk going to the Circle and traveling back. Would probably save the village though.
Dalish: Kill werewolves. Would want troops tied to a treaty, and would not want to kill/lose the leader of those troops(Zathrian).
Mages: Side with Irving. Duncan thinks pretty highly of mages and their powers. Doubt he would let the Chantry shorten his resources if he could prevent it.
Orzammar: Bhelen and preserve Anvil. Anvil=Anti Darkspawn, and Bhelen seems more eager to help than Harrowmont.
Landsmeet: Conscript Loghain. Anora on the throne. Zero idea though what he would do with Alistair; marry, execute, exile? Not a clue. I imagine he wouldn't let Alistair get executed.
Final Battle: I think he would do the DR because it in theory in enables a greater chance of victory anyone can slay the Archdemon and it will perish just not the Grey Wardens.


Just my 2 cents.

Now the difference between Alistair vs Jory is that Alistair wasn't a coward Jory was. Alistair is a Grey Warden and Jory was only a recruit. I see no reason for Duncan to have Alistair executed. That would in no way contribute to killing the AD (it actually diminishes the chances). It's been said time and again that Duncan's weakness is newb GW. And Alistair's 'off with his head' reaction in the Landsmeet is in large part due to Duncan's death in the first place. If this played out and Loghain got conscripted would Alistair be pissed? fzuck yes.... will he go the the Free Marches and become a wandering drunkard, I don't think so. He'd probably be at the front lines in Denerim with Duncan and Loghain as a GW.

[jpdipity]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I've never been too clear if it was ever clarified, but doesn't the Dark Ritual also sort of imply that anyone could kill the ArchDemon, and not just a Grey Warden? Whether it is or not, simply believing that could tip the balances: three/four wardens is still very few, and changing the fate of the Blight from hinging on four people to hinging on anyone getting a lucky blow could be decisive. Suddenly it won't all matter on one of the remaining Wardens being in the right place at the right time, only on the ArchDemon being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Dying to kill Archdemons isn't what the Wardens exist for: ending Blights is. It's just that, until now, the only way they knew to do so was sacrifice.

Per Gaider:
"I remember our thinking at the time was that the Archdemon's essence had to enter a Grey Warden first-- and that the Dark Ritual would effectively "pull" the essence from the Grey Warden into the child. It didn't seem like it was important enough to explain (certainly even if that wasn't the case the player is probably the only person with the personal power to kill the Archdemon as it is), and Morrigan has a lot of explaining to cover.

Seeing as it was never mentioned, however, you can opt for whichever explanation you prefer."
http://social.biowar...ex/3119536&lf=8

[jpdipity]

Sacred Ashes - Duncan would not likely waste time searching for a myth.

Redcliffe - Save village.  Kill Connor, but I think he could be convinced to allow Isolde to sacrifice herself.  I think Duncan would help since he was there and served it his purpose (like in the Cousland castle).  Not to mention, it wastes more time for him to leave and come back than to simply help the village.  Killing the demon is the simpliest choice, but I think Duncan is compassionate enough that Isolde's pleas may sway him.  I don't think he cares whether the demon is vanquished or not; so, ultimately, it wouldn't matter to him if Isolde or Connor died as long as the issue was resolved quickly.

Orzammar - Bhelan is the only one who promised troops.  Harrowmont is whish-washy on being able to secure them.  Preserve the Anvil for the darkspawn-squishing Golems.

Save the Circle - Mages are of more use to Duncan than Templars.  Not to mention, Gregoir gives Duncan a hard time during the Mage Origin; so, I think Duncan would trust Irving as more of an ally than Gregoir.

Forest - Lift the Curse.  I think he would set out to kill the Werewolves, but Zathrain is unsure if killing Witherfang will actually lift the curse.  So, after hearing the Lady's plea, Duncan would seek out Zathrian to lift the curse instead of simply killing Witherfang.  He needs troops and if killing Witherfang failed, he would not get them from the Dalish.

Conscript Loghain, crown Anora and keep Alistair in Grey Wardens.  I believe that Fiona is Alistair's mother.  She did not want her son to be on the throne and Duncan was charged with watching over him.  So, I think Duncan would keep Alistair off the throne if he could.  I also don't think Alistair would have any problem with conscripting Loghain if Duncan survived.  Alistair would likely concede to Duncan's orders even if he didn't like them.

Dark Ritual.  I don't think that he'd believe that it would acutally work, but I think he'd do it to bed Morrigan.  Not to mention if it does work, it is a new alternative for future blights and how the Grey Wardens stop them.

Ultimate Sacrifice.  I don't think he'd get the chance.  I think Duncan would have done the Riordan thing and jumped on the back of the Archdemon and likely fall to his death.  He did it before and it worked - why not again?  If given the opportunity, he would do the ultimate sacrifice.  I also think he would leave Alistair at the gates if he could to keep him out of the main fight.

Modifié par jpdipity, 30 novembre 2010 - 08:53 .

[Sarah1281]

Dark Ritual. I don't think that he'd believe that it would acutally work, but I think he'd do it to bed Morrigan. Not to mention if it does work, it is a new alternative for future blights and how the Grey Wardens stop them.

Since when is Duncan that irresponsible? Really? He would do it because Morrigan is just that hot and he's desperate to get laid? And you're ignoring the fact that the OGB is a HUGE risk. For all we know, it will attract every darkspawn in sight the minute it's born and start a new Blight. A human child will be far harder to locate than a giant dragon. Why would sparing one life (and one life is all it would spare as anyone else but that final person would still die regardless of if the DR is born) be worth the risk of a new Blight rising up or whatever other worst case scenario a child with the soul of an old god could do? Duncan is perfectly willing to sacrifice people when need be.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Dark Ritual. I don't think that he'd believe that it would acutally work, but I think he'd do it to bed Morrigan. Not to mention if it does work, it is a new alternative for future blights and how the Grey Wardens stop them.

Since when is Duncan that irresponsible? Really? He would do it because Morrigan is just that hot and he's desperate to get laid? And you're ignoring the fact that the OGB is a HUGE risk. For all we know, it will attract every darkspawn in sight the minute it's born and start a new Blight. A human child will be far harder to locate than a giant dragon. Why would sparing one life (and one life is all it would spare as anyone else but that final person would still die regardless of if the DR is born) be worth the risk of a new Blight rising up or whatever other worst case scenario a child with the soul of an old god could do? Duncan is perfectly willing to sacrifice people when need be.

Archdemons have never been anything but dragons.  I figure Duncan will look at it pragmatically, saying, it probably won't work but if it does then it will save a Grey Warden's life (he has a soft spot for his recruits, remember) and they may be able to learn more about how to fight a Blight from the OGB.  I'm just betting he would be forward thinking on this one.  I admit it's nothing but a gut feeling and I could be wrong, who really knows?  I suppose the game writers could give us the most definitive take.

[Sarah1281]

Worrying about what would happen to this baby once it's born IS being forward-thinking. And do we know if the Archdemon, once killed by a non-Warden, enters another darkspawn and then shape-shifts into dragon form or if the Archdemon now looks like, say, a genlock? Duncan has a soft spot for his recruits but not to the point that he would take a needless risk like that. He killed Jory with little hesitation, after all, and since he would be intending to take the blow in the first place, it would be highly unnecessary. Riordan would also still be there if Duncan had been alive and between the two of them they had a decent chance of taking down the Archdemon. If Morrigan takes off with the child like she does in game (and disappears with it to a mirror universe) then it's not like they can study it either.

[rak72]

What Sarah said. Duncan is not a think with his wiener kind of guy (maybe in his youth, but he's all business now). He totally turns down Lady Cousland with no strings, there is no way he would get with Morrigan and risk whatever this OGB might be.

Modifié par rak72, 30 novembre 2010 - 09:51 .

[rak72]

Double post

Modifié par rak72, 30 novembre 2010 - 09:51 .

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Worrying about what would happen to this baby once it's born IS being forward-thinking. And do we know if the Archdemon, once killed by a non-Warden, enters another darkspawn and then shape-shifts into dragon form or if the Archdemon now looks like, say, a genlock? Duncan has a soft spot for his recruits but not to the point that he would take a needless risk like that. He killed Jory with little hesitation, after all, and since he would be intending to take the blow in the first place, it would be highly unnecessary. Riordan would also still be there if Duncan had been alive and between the two of them they had a decent chance of taking down the Archdemon. If Morrigan takes off with the child like she does in game (and disappears with it to a mirror universe) then it's not like they can study it either.

But that's the thing, a Grey Warden is still taking the killing blow no matter what.  So either the same thing will happen that always has- the AD is destroyed along with the Warden (so it's assumed)- or else Morrigan is right and the essence of the thing is changed.  No archdemon, no Blight.

[Tigress M]

Rykoth wrote...
In Orzamaar he would definitely support Harrowmont. Just play through the DN origin - he respects Endrin too much to screw his late wishes over.

My very first reaction to this was that you're absolutely right because he knows what happened to the DN.  But then, I thought, does he really?  He only knows what the DN told him, not whether or not it was the truth.  For his purposes, recruiting the DN into the Wardens, the truth didn't matter.

But, I think ejoslin is right:

ejoslin wrote...I think he would may support Harrowmont until he got to the point where harrowmont tells him, "I cannot promise to send you troops.  I'll put it before the assembly if you put me on the throne."  I think at that point, Duncan would seek out Bhelen and say, "i was spying on Harrowmont."

All bets are off if Harrowmont starts ****-footing around about the troops.  

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...
But that's the thing, a Grey Warden is still taking the killing blow no matter what.  So either the same thing will happen that always has- the AD is destroyed along with the Warden (so it's assumed)- or else Morrigan is right and the essence of the thing is changed.  No archdemon, no Blight.

I think that that's a false dichotomy. There's not just 'the ritual does nothing' or 'Morrigan is absolutely right and this baby won't come back to haunt any of us.' All that we know for sure is that the Blight will be over for now. Who knows what will happen once it's born/older? And while Duncan's main goal is to stop the Blight, this isn't a case of creating a potential future threat as the only way to stop the Blight now (Sin from FFX strikes me as a good example of this) but he would be creating a potential future threat to end the Blight and save just one life. Duncan does have a soft spot for his recruits but one life is simply not worth it and if Duncan killing Jory, allowing Eleanor to stay behind without even a token protest, the fact we're told if he could he would have written off all of Ferelden are any indicaiton then he's not going to risk a super-powerful evil OGB hellbent on destroying life as we know it to save one person. He's far more practical than that.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
But that's the thing, a Grey Warden is still taking the killing blow no matter what.  So either the same thing will happen that always has- the AD is destroyed along with the Warden (so it's assumed)- or else Morrigan is right and the essence of the thing is changed.  No archdemon, no Blight.

I think that that's a false dichotomy. There's not just 'the ritual does nothing' or 'Morrigan is absolutely right and this baby won't come back to haunt any of us.' All that we know for sure is that the Blight will be over for now. Who knows what will happen once it's born/older? And while Duncan's main goal is to stop the Blight, this isn't a case of creating a potential future threat as the only way to stop the Blight now (Sin from FFX strikes me as a good example of this) but he would be creating a potential future threat to end the Blight and save just one life. Duncan does have a soft spot for his recruits but one life is simply not worth it and if Duncan killing Jory, allowing Eleanor to stay behind without even a token protest, the fact we're told if he could he would have written off all of Ferelden are any indicaiton then he's not going to risk a super-powerful evil OGB hellbent on destroying life as we know it to save one person. He's far more practical than that.

Who knows what really happens in the normal case of a Warden dying?  Riordan admits they don't know how it works.  In any case, you're still following normal GW procedure.  A Warden takes the final blow.  If you believe Morrigan that having sex with her is going to prevent the usual from happening, then you're already acknowledging that you believe she can change things.

[Sarah1281]

Addai67 wrote...
Who knows what really happens in the normal case of a Warden dying?  Riordan admits they don't know how it works.  In any case, you're still following normal GW procedure.  A Warden takes the final blow.  If you believe Morrigan that having sex with her is going to prevent the usual from happening, then you're already acknowledging that you believe she can change things.

Of course I believe she can change things. If I (or Duncan) didn't think she could then there would be no need to make a decision here. The point is that there is really no guarentee that the change is for the better. Even if Morrigan has the best of intentions, we know Flemeth ,who is most assuredly not dead, wants to get her hands on the OGB (not to mention giving Morrigan the ritual in the first place) and she's hardly trustworthy. I always take the ritual anyway but I know how reckless that is. I think Duncan would be more responsible here and not risk all manner of problems the ritual could cause to save one person's life, especially when he fully intended to die soon anyway and would wantn to take the final blow.

[Addai]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Who knows what really happens in the normal case of a Warden dying?  Riordan admits they don't know how it works.  In any case, you're still following normal GW procedure.  A Warden takes the final blow.  If you believe Morrigan that having sex with her is going to prevent the usual from happening, then you're already acknowledging that you believe she can change things.

Of course I believe she can change things. If I (or Duncan) didn't think she could then there would be no need to make a decision here. The point is that there is really no guarentee that the change is for the better. Even if Morrigan has the best of intentions, we know Flemeth ,who is most assuredly not dead, wants to get her hands on the OGB (not to mention giving Morrigan the ritual in the first place) and she's hardly trustworthy. I always take the ritual anyway but I know how reckless that is. I think Duncan would be more responsible here and not risk all manner of problems the ritual could cause to save one person's life, especially when he fully intended to die soon anyway and would wantn to take the final blow.

And there's no guarantee that the change is for the worse, either.  You still do your duty as a Warden.

If you think he'd refuse the DR on principle, then you must think he would kill her in case she could succeed with another Warden.

[jpdipity]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Dark Ritual. I don't think that he'd believe that it would acutally work, but I think he'd do it to bed Morrigan. Not to mention if it does work, it is a new alternative for future blights and how the Grey Wardens stop them.

Since when is Duncan that irresponsible? Really? He would do it because Morrigan is just that hot and he's desperate to get laid? And you're ignoring the fact that the OGB is a HUGE risk. For all we know, it will attract every darkspawn in sight the minute it's born and start a new Blight. A human child will be far harder to locate than a giant dragon. Why would sparing one life (and one life is all it would spare as anyone else but that final person would still die regardless of if the DR is born) be worth the risk of a new Blight rising up or whatever other worst case scenario a child with the soul of an old god could do? Duncan is perfectly willing to sacrifice people when need be.

I am basing my opinion of Duncan and his desires on what was shown in "The Calling".  I don't know much about Duncan from the game - we see so little of him.  However, I have quite a bit of information about Duncan from "The Calling".  Perhaps he has grown up entirely - perhaps not so much. 

No one is perfectly responsible and no one is a perfect Grey Warden subscribing to the GW Ideal.  Duncan HAS to have some faults.  Jumping on Dragons and jumping on Maidens are the vices I have attributed to him based on his behavior in the book.  I choose to believe, for lack of evidence showing otherwise, he has become more responsible in some areas (as shown in the game), but still maintains some of his vices like sleeping around indiscriminately.  I could be way off, but I guess we'll never know...

Duncan was always a risk taker in the book; so, taking the conservative approach to the DR seems out of character to me even if he does it for reasons beyond what I stated.

[Sarah1281]

I am basing my opinion of Duncan and his desires on what was shown in "The Calling". I don't know much about Duncan from the game - we see so little of him. However, I have quite a bit of information about Duncan from "The Calling". Perhaps he has grown up entirely - perhaps not so much.

You mean the Duncan that had only recently been saved from the gallows? I think the 'I can give you weapons to save your fellow elves from being raped and murdered but it would mess with Warden neutrality if I got involved' Duncan from DA is a great deal older (two decades, remember) and more mature than he was back then.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that MOST PEOPLE are a great deal more responsible at 40 than at 20. Maybe 20-year-old Duncan would have slept with Morrigan because she offered but not 40-year-old Duncan. And there is a difference between taking a legitimate risk and potentially dooming all of Thedas (who knows what that baby is capable of or what Flemeth is capable of doing with it?) because he wants one person to live when he's shown himself capable of ruthlessly cutting down his recruits or letting people suffer/die out of pragmatism...or worse, because he can't talk Leliana into ****ing him.

Edit: I mean, seriously. There are a lot of frat guys in college who will do anything that moves and yet if you check back two decades later, they will likely have stopped this behavior because it's been two decades. And did you see how when the HNF tried to proposition Duncan, he got all awkward and said it wouldn't be appropriate for him to go into her room, even just to talk? 

Modifié par Sarah1281, 01 décembre 2010 - 12:41 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Perhaps I am missing something, but why might not Duncan try for both?



Sleep with Morrigan on the belief that a Grey Warden doesn't have to be the one to kill the ArchDemon in its most powerful form, thus increasing the chance of stopping the blight.



Keep a Warden with Morrigan, and kill Morrigan and the unborn child immediately once the ArchDemon is slain. Morrigan gets taken by surprise, the OGB is killed, and while it may still kill a Warden it's almost certainly easier/more likely to be able to kill Morrigan after anyone brings down the ArchDemon than just rely on one of three people both reaching and being able to slay the ArchDemon.