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[Giggles_Manically]

Zjarcal wrote...

Harrowmont is a competent politician?

Didnt you know!
Someone who supports infanticide, oppression, and someone who cant deal with a corrupt group of nobles is a model of kingship. 
Obviously. 

[Herr Uhl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Duncan didn't kill Jory because Jory knew too much. Duncan killed Jory because Jory drew a blade on him. Morrigan (and Flemeth) have known the Grey Warden secrets for decades (centuries) and haven't spread them about: there's no imminent threat.

He was also backing away. Unless Duncan is a complete social retard he would have seen that he wouldn't do anything unless provoked.

He killed him because "there is no turning back" at that point. Why is there no turning back at that point? Because they don't want the secret to be spread.

Edit: Allowing the secret to be spread would make it cease to be a secret.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 01 décembre 2010 - 05:46 .

[Sarah1281]

Wulfram wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Can someone please explain to me why so many people are sure that Duncan would give the throne of Orzammar to the 'maybe I can give you your troops if you somehow manage to make me king. Ideas would be appreciated because there's no sure way to get there' candidate over the 'We must unite to fight the fulcrum of true evil!' one?

Because Bhelen's a lieing bastard who is probably only telling you what you want to hear - and may well cause a civil war if he actually is serious, which is no good for fighting the blight.  

While Harrowmont is an experienced and competent politician, well suited to uniting Orzammar against the blight.

He would cause a civil war if he were serious? What are you talking about? 

Bhelen promises troops. Harrowmont promises to politely ask the Assembly, who appear to be hopelessly indecisive, if they can decide to send you troops before the Blight has killed everyone. I don't think Duncan would worry about what was best for the dwarves (although the epilogue strongly suggests that is Bhelen) so much as who will get him the troops he desperately needs since he doesn't think GWs should meddle in politics and would only be meddling to get his damn troops.

Harrowmont is a competent compromiser which does not really sound like that will get the troops needed as how can you really compromise on a thing like that? Only sending half the troops? Just the fact that Bhelen's faction is more aggressive and Harrowmont's more 'civilized' means that putting Bhelen on the throne is the best way to avoid a civil war as Harrowmont's side is too 'decent' to cause an outright rebellion, unlike Bhelen's side.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 01 décembre 2010 - 05:40 .

[Wulfram]

Bhelen's "RAHH!! All who disagree with me will die!" style of politics is liable to force people to oppose him, while Harrowmont is ideally suited to building a consensus for war.

Plus Harrowmont is an experienced general.

[Giggles_Manically]

Wulfram wrote...

Bhelen's "RAHH!! All who disagree with me will die!" style of politics is liable to force people to oppose him, while Harrowmont is ideally suited to building a consensus for war.

Plus Harrowmont is an experienced general.

Leaders of Bhelen's style is that Orzamar needs.
Harrowmont is too weak, and focused on mediation to ever help Orzamar.

He just does not have the ability to get people working toghther for very long.

Besides Bhelen has many troops who are experienced and loyal too him. 

[Sarah1281]

And? Harrowmont or Bhelen won't be personally leading the Blight troops so I don't see why that would figure into it. And Bhelen keeps the 'all who oppose me must die' thing quiet until he actually has the throne.

[Wulfram]

Even if not present on the battlefield, I'd rather have an experienced general than a kid leading my allies

The whole reason, as I understand it, that people have been arguing that Duncan would support Bhelen is because he doesn't make military intervention contingent on the assembly.  Given the constitutional status of Orzammar's monarchy, that is an attitude liable to produce a civil war

[Sarah1281]

And yet war doesn't break out when Bhelen completely dissolves the Assembly which there is a precedent for doing. I really don't think they're a constitutional monarchy at all since they can so easily be done away with.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Wulfram wrote...

Even if not present on the battlefield, I'd rather have an experienced general than a kid leading my allies

The whole reason, as I understand it, that people have been arguing that Duncan would support Bhelen is because he doesn't make military intervention contingent on the assembly.  Given the constitutional status of Orzammar's monarchy, that is an attitude liable to produce a civil war

Given Duncan's attitude that the Blight is all that matters, to possibility of civil war isn't his concern. Getting troops to fight the Blight is. Whoever can give them to him is who Duncan will support. And having played every origin, it's clear Duncan doesn't care who he offends or who he pisses off: he will get his Wardens and allies, one way or another.

Harrowmont waffles, Bhelen will deliver, whether anyone likes it or not. That is was Duncan cares about: the bottom line. What consequences to dwarven politics afterwards come secondary in his concerns.

[KnightofPhoenix]

If it was made clear that Bhelen intends to enlist the casteless in the army (which is not clear in game IIRC, unless the crier mentions it? It's hinted that Bhelen is going to make reforms, whether those reforms imply enlisting casteless is not clear, but I'll check it out in more detail when I get to Orzammar), then without a doubt Duncan would side with Bhelen.

But without this info, it's nuanced. On one hand, Harrowmont is experienced and is a general and Bhelen has no real experience. On the other hand, Harrowmont doesn't promise troops, he suggests taking it to the Assembly who just showed themselves incapable of forming a consensus, while Bhelen promises military intervention without wasting time with "cultured debate".

So I am leaning towards Duncan picking Bhelen (add to that Harrowmont's pathetic display of weakness in the commons and his inability to secure the loyalty of his champions in the provings), but it's not that clear really, he could go either way.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 décembre 2010 - 06:43 .

[Wulfram]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Even if not present on the battlefield, I'd rather have an experienced general than a kid leading my allies

The whole reason, as I understand it, that people have been arguing that Duncan would support Bhelen is because he doesn't make military intervention contingent on the assembly.  Given the constitutional status of Orzammar's monarchy, that is an attitude liable to produce a civil war

Given Duncan's attitude that the Blight is all that matters, to possibility of civil war isn't his concern. Getting troops to fight the Blight is. Whoever can give them to him is who Duncan will support. And having played every origin, it's clear Duncan doesn't care who he offends or who he pisses off: he will get his Wardens and allies, one way or another.

But if Bhelen is having a fight with the assembly, then you're in no better position than if Orzammar still doesn't have a King.  The troops will stay home while the internal difficulties are settled.

Harrowmont waffles, Bhelen will deliver, whether anyone likes it or not. That is was Duncan cares about: the bottom line. What consequences to dwarven politics afterwards come secondary in his concerns.

But the question is whether Bhelen is actually in a better position to deliver, or if it's just bluster and telling the Warden what he wants to hear, while Harrowmont is giving you a clear idea of the situation.  
In truth, I don't get the impression that honouring the treaty will be a difficult sell once they have a King, so it's probably not a major issue either way.

[ejoslin]

Harrowmont can't even get his own men to fight in a proving for him -- i doubt his ability to lead a country.

edit; or maybe i should put it THIS way -- Bhelen can get Harrowmont's most loyal men to turn their backs on Harrowmont (by pretty bad means, granted, but he can do that), whereas Harrowmont doesn't inspire enough loyalty of even his most dedicated men when the screws are put to them.

what Zevran says in Orzammar really does ring true -- How can Harrowmont be a king if he cannot even lead his own men?

Modifié par ejoslin, 01 décembre 2010 - 06:53 .

[Herr Uhl]

Why is this getting into the already beaten to death debate on whether Bhelen or Harrowmont is better?



I simply think that Duncan would go with Harrowmont as he keeps up the status quo, and he believes that wardens shouldn't meddle in politics.

[Wulfram]

Bhelen can't even succeed his father, despite being the only living son

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

Bhelen can't even succeed his father, despite being the only living son

Orzammar is not a hereditary monarchy, so it's not automatic that Bhelen has to inherit the throne. Especially since Endrin did not appoint him as his official succesor, because he is a senile idiot who exiled his son to prevent House Aeducan from being disgraced, while at the same time doesn't do anything to make sure the throne remains theirs (in addition to being a hypocrit, he had his brother killed as well).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 décembre 2010 - 07:02 .

[Sarah1281]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Bhelen can't even succeed his father, despite being the only living son

Orzammar is not a hereditary monarchy, so it's not automatic that Bhelen has to inherit the throne. Especially since Endrin did not appoint him as his official succesor, because he is a senile idiot who exiled his son to prevent House Aeducan from being disgraced, while at the same time doesn't do anything to make sure the throne remains theirs (in addition to being a hypocrit, he had his brother killed as well).

See, finding out that he ultimately rejected Bhelen after everything is why none of my DNs can ever forgive Endrin. I mean, the knowingly letting them become a scapegoat and becoming exiled and then admitting to that is bad enough but to make the whole thing utterly pointless? 

[ejoslin]

And i will add, Bhelen can get his men to fight for him, defend him, and Harrowmont cannot (the one scene you see where Harrowmont may be in actual physical danger, his men run away before Harrowmont even can get up from the ground).

And to turn your arugment around, it's actually Harrowmont who claims Endrin made him his heir, yet he can't get appointed king by the assembly.

Bhelen is not a nice men, but he is an effective leader.  You see the loyalty he inspires in his men, and the fear he inspires in the ones who oppose him. 

Modifié par ejoslin, 01 décembre 2010 - 07:07 .

[Wulfram]

The Aeducans have been ruling for centuries, so the failure of Bhelen to secure election is a significant failure on his part

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

The Aeducans have been ruling for centuries, so the failure of Bhelen to secure election is a significant failure on his part

See, you are looking at the glass as half empty.

Bhelen has no experience, according to the codex did nothing important and is very young, and yet he still managed to get half the Assembly to be with him, and is being much more aggressive against Harrowmont, who despite his experience and despite his claim of being apppointed by Endrin, can barely get half the Assembly to be with him, and barely any of his men to be really loyal to him (despite being a general).

[Wulfram]

Presumably there have been similarly inexperienced Aeducan candidates before.

Plus those reasons why the Assembly aren't supporting him are pretty good reasons for Duncan not to support him.

[ejoslin]

When playing a dwarf noble, you learn that what happened to you -- being exiled without a trial -- is against all laws and traditions. Harrowmont fought for you, but even with all the laws and traditions to back him (and you) up, Bhelen was able to get the assembly to go along with him.

I would say that's a good example of how effective the two are with the assembly.  It's why even my Dwarf Noble made Bhelen king.

Modifié par ejoslin, 01 décembre 2010 - 07:23 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wulfram wrote...

Presumably there have been similarly inexperienced Aeducan candidates before.

Where did you get this?

Wulfram wrote...
Plus those reasons why the Assembly aren't supporting him are pretty good reasons for Duncan not to support him.

Same can be said about Harrowmont, who also doesn't have the full support of the Assembly. And ther are other reasons why Duncan would not be enthusiastic about supporting him. 

[Sarah1281]

It seems to me that the reason that Harrowmont's support grows so much is that the Aeducans have been on the throne for nine generations. They see Harrowmont as an old, weak king. They put him on the throne and push the Aeducans off and then there's room for one of them to take the throne in a few years. The nobles just see this as the best chance to get the Aeducans off the throne, it's not about Bhelen or Harrowmont themselves.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sarah1281 wrote...

It seems to me that the reason that Harrowmont's support grows so much is that the Aeducans have been on the throne for nine generations. They see Harrowmont as an old, weak king. They put him on the throne and push the Aeducans off and then there's room for one of them to take the throne in a few years. The nobles just see this as the best chance to get the Aeducans off the throne, it's not about Bhelen or Harrowmont themselves.

Yep. As Hanz said, I am pretty sure it's some Noble Houses who pushed the poor sod as canditate, even when he doesn't seem to really want it.

Plus, Harrowmont being a compromiser (weak) means that the Assembly can control him, which is what many Deshyrs would want.