333 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Revya wrote...

The post by blackcanopus explains it all

Well, it certainly gives me a solid idea what to think of you - and blackcanopus.  Probably not the "explanation" you were trying to get across, though.

[Ziggeh]

Gleym wrote...

More like: If Pixar suddenly started making movies of Dreamworks quality, but still kept the Pixar label, it be 'not a Pixar movie'.

You already said that, I wasn't confused by it, I just disagree.

You're creating a vague, arbitrary and imaginary standard to hold things to that's exclusively based on your own personal preferences in order to make the claim that it's somehow an objective position and therefore holds more value.

[Revya]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Revya wrote...

The post by blackcanopus explains it all

Well, it certainly gives me a solid idea what to think of you - and blackcanopus.  Probably not the "explanation" you were trying to get across, though.

Haha, yeah well the post is still funny since it also sums up every thing that is happening.

All we can do is wait and see, still I wish there was less marketing bs and more concrete information.

[Maria Caliban]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Streamlining, in general, is making a game more accessible to satisfy a broader audience while alienating another, smaller one.

Streamlining mean no such thing. To streamline something is to alter its form or operation so that it's more efficient or economic.

A simple example is that on a mac I have to hold CTRL and click the mouse button for a 'right click' wherein on a PC, I can simply click the right mouse button. The PC's design is streamlined when it comes to button clicks because I can do the same thing with one hand that takes me two on a mac.

Another example, in Dragon Age: Origins PC, there's an action bar at the bottom of the screen. I can drag spells and abilities to it and then access them in a single click. In Dragon Age: Origins XBox, you can map four abilities/spells to controller but otherwise have to navigate a radial menu.

Presuming I have more than four apells/abilities per character, the PC's design is streamlined.

Now streamlining a design might make it more accessible to the majority and it might make it less desirable to a minority, but that's not a given.

[Revya]

In the end we still don't know how this streamline will effect the game since there is little new info about the PC version and all the previews of the game give us nothing new.



I do like the Pcgamer responses seems, I am not the only one hopping to get more info out of priwiews insted of the same old "This game rocks" articles.

[Archereon]

Maria Caliban wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Streamlining, in general, is making a game more accessible to satisfy a broader audience while alienating another, smaller one.

Streamlining mean no such thing. To streamline something is to alter its form or operation so that it's more efficient or economic.

A simple example is that on a mac I have to hold CTRL and click the mouse button for a 'right click' wherein on a PC, I can simply click the right mouse button. The PC's design is streamlined when it comes to button clicks because I can do the same thing with one hand that takes me two on a mac.

Another example, in Dragon Age: Origins PC, there's an action bar at the bottom of the screen. I can drag spells and abilities to it and then access them in a single click. In Dragon Age: Origins XBox, you can map four abilities/spells to controller but otherwise have to navigate a radial menu.

Presuming I have more than four apells/abilities per character, the PC's design is streamlined.

Now streamlining a design might make it more accessible to the majority and it might make it less desirable to a minority, but that's not a given.

Exactly.  Streamlining, in my opinion, is the removal of false difficulty, like bad interfaces.  However, streamlining is often used as a justification, to, pardon my colliloquism, dumb down a game.

[MIke_18]

Are you guys really defining what streamlining and simplifying means by looking up encyclopedias?



Look Bioware made the game dumber ok, it's not anything new and unexpected it is happening to every franchise around, they want to expand to casual audiences, they've said it themselves, jeez is it hard to understand this?

[Atakuma]

MIke_18 wrote...

Are you guys really defining what streamlining and simplifying means by looking up encyclopedias?

It's a lot better than pulling it out of your ass, which is a method you seem quite fond of.

[MIke_18]

We all know what streamlining means ok?

It's going from Morrowind to Oblivion, from Fallout 2 to Fallout 3, From Deus Ex to Deus Ex 2?

Bioware are not really hiding the fact that they want the people who like Fable and GOW to buy DA II too, why are people denying that it's dumbed down?

Modifié par MIke_18, 02 décembre 2010 - 02:08 .

[Piecake]

Atakuma wrote...

MIke_18 wrote...

Are you guys really defining what streamlining and simplifying means by looking up encyclopedias?

It's a lot better than pulling it out of your ass, which is a method you seem quite fond of.

It seems like his definition of streamlined is every change made in DA2 because that is the only way that his comment that the new party approval system in DA2 makes sense

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Oh man, my head started to hurt just about the time the article's author got into saying how Isabela can backflip out of a group of darkspawn and drop a smoke bomb. Then the whole King Varric thing came up...Varric is a king now? I hope the author was just an idiot, he did make a typo with Aveline, calling her Adeline...so maybe everything else is a typo? Please...?

[Dave of Canada]

MIke_18 wrote...

Look Bioware made the game dumber ok?

I didn't know the game had intelligence. Did Bioware create the world first AI?

[Ziggeh]

MIke_18 wrote...

We all know what streamlining means ok?

Yes, we all know what a handful of people keep using it as a synonym for, and it seems most of us realise they're using it incorrectly, which is why they're pointing that out.

MIke_18 wrote...
Bioware are not really hiding the fact that they want the people who like Fable and GOW to buy DA II too

And in todays headlines, business in Wanting To Sell Their Product scandal.

MIke_18 wrote...
why are people denying that it's dumbed down?

Because the basis for that statement is wild speculation and despite mulitple posters across multiple threads making the same points, we've yet to see them supported by anything more substantial than opinion.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 02 décembre 2010 - 03:46 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Gleym wrote...

More like: If Pixar suddenly started making movies of Dreamworks quality, but still kept the Pixar label, it be 'not a Pixar movie'.

This is the best example I have ever seen of a No True Scotsman.

[mr_luga]

Gah! Got spoiled hard by that preview.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yes, we're well past the point where people with what I would call a sensible view of spoilers can read previews or watch videos.

[Addai]

Dragon Age 2 is looking over Mass Effect’s shoulder and taking some serious notes. That’s definitely a good thing.

*facepalm*

I'm going to join Upsettingshorts in downing a shot or two.  I suspect for different reasons.

[KalDurenik]

Well you are on a Bioware forum... If you visit most other websites there are negativity against the changes being made. While here its being overall praised as the 2nd coming.

[Johnson45]

Only got so far before I realised they were gonna talk about the story gonna have to give this a miss :/



Once again Mass Effect finds its way into the DA2 board. Nice.



Its almost as if people struggle to see this as a seperate game :L

[Shreav]

Dragon Age 2 is looking over Mass Effect’s shoulder and taking some serious notes. That’s definitely a good thing.

Assuming that's not sarcastic, then so much fail...

[Graunt]

Maria Caliban wrote...

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Streamlining, in general, is making a game more accessible to satisfy a broader audience while alienating another, smaller one.

Streamlining mean no such thing. To streamline something is to alter its form or operation so that it's more efficient or economic.

A simple example is that on a mac I have to hold CTRL and click the mouse button for a 'right click' wherein on a PC, I can simply click the right mouse button. The PC's design is streamlined when it comes to button clicks because I can do the same thing with one hand that takes me two on a mac.

Another example, in Dragon Age: Origins PC, there's an action bar at the bottom of the screen. I can drag spells and abilities to it and then access them in a single click. In Dragon Age: Origins XBox, you can map four abilities/spells to controller but otherwise have to navigate a radial menu.

Presuming I have more than four apells/abilities per character, the PC's design is streamlined.

Now streamlining a design might make it more accessible to the majority and it might make it less desirable to a minority, but that's not a given.

The person you quoted was not completely incorrect, nor were you completely accurate.  Mass Effect 2 is the perfect example of the definitions each of you gave.  Developers love to toss around "streamlining" as a replacement for "dumbing down".

Its almost as if people struggle to see this as a seperate game :L

Considering a lot of people were enraged with a lot of the changes in ME2 (although it is the superior game overall) and Bioware seems to be using that game as a template for it's "easy to play so we get more dollars, niche games can go the way of the dinosaur" philosophy, expect to see that game brought up for each new Bioware "RPG".  Bioware used to be the last bastion for CPRG type games, or even just "good" RPGS in general, but even they are now conforming to the whole shoving action games into everyone's faces direction.

Modifié par Graunt, 02 décembre 2010 - 01:59 .

[soteria]

The person you quoted was not completely incorrect, nor were you completely accurate. Mass Effect 2 is the perfect example of the definitions each of you gave. Developers love to toss around "streamlining" as a replacement for "dumbing down".

Streamlining has nothing to do with satisfying one audience while alienating another. That's just a consequence of any change. So no, they weren't "not completely incorrect" unless you completely ignore what they were really saying.

[Addai]

iShreav wrote...

Dragon Age 2 is looking over Mass Effect’s shoulder and taking some serious notes. That’s definitely a good thing.

Assuming that's not sarcastic, then so much fail...

It wasn't sarcastic, as far as I can tell.  It was the last line of the review and meant to be the takeaway.

So yeah.  Big, big facepalm.  I realize many people like Mass Effect, but since I view DAO as far the superior game, it's like hearing that the smart kid in class is looking over the shoulder of the drooling jack-off during a test, just because he's cool.  Not only is it pathetic, you know it's not going to end well.  And the kicker is that the drooling jack-off is not even cool, he just thinks he is.

But I suppose my facepalm is all the larger because I picked up a copy of Gamepro (on my way to get the EW spread on A Game of Thrones!) and they were featuring DA2 along with other RPG titles coming out in 2011.  They quote David Gaider saying "Mass Effect 2 shows that we can do some different things and still be an RPG"- paraphrased.  Then I see a review of an M-rated LOTR game coming out that looks promising, go to its Wiki and see "dialogue will be like Mass Effect."  GAH!!!  What a huge circle jerk over this stupid game.  Apparently all RPGs now aspire to mediocre conformity.

[upsettingshorts]

Addai67 wrote...
Then I see a review of an M-rated LOTR game coming out that looks promising, go to its Wiki and see "dialogue will be like Mass Effect." 

Really?  That sounds great, what was it called?

[Addai]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Then I see a review of an M-rated LOTR game coming out that looks promising, go to its Wiki and see "dialogue will be like Mass Effect." 

Really?  That sounds great, what was it called?

It's called War in the North.  It sounded very promising in the Gamepro preview, but I'm much less impressed by the details.  There's hardly anything on the story or characters, it's all about combat and loot.  It is designed to be a multiplayer, so there's going to be a generic elf tracker, dwarf warrior and human wizard (!!!! the Tolkien nerd in me flails) as your party.  Not much characterization going to happen there.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 décembre 2010 - 04:40 .