411 réponses à ce sujet

[thebrute7]

I completely agree with everything he said espescially the persuausion option.



"PERSUASION" do it right this time.

[Undertone]

Agree and wait...agree.

[SithLordExarKun]

Nice and and agreed. I'd love to see some proper mods though and not the lousy ones in ME1. Mods like scopes, holographic sights, dragons breath rounds etc etc...

[Gleym]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

This could be a good thing, yes.

Not dexterity, though. Every time I hear dexterity, I think D&D. And I remember trying to play it and cringe.

..Then why are you playing an RPG..? Wait, let me rephrase that: Would you feel less traumatized if they used a word like 'Accuracy' instead? Even if they rephrased it as 'Accuracy' it would still be doing the same thing.

Personally, though, I'm all for stats affecting your combat efficiency. Anyone who complains about having to choose between stats and skills shouldn't even be playing this game in the first place, or anything with the word 'RPG' in it.

Modifié par Gleym, 01 décembre 2010 - 07:24 .

[MisterDyslexo]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Nice and and agreed. I'd love to see some proper mods though and not the lousy ones in ME1. Mods like scopes, holographic sights, dragons breath rounds etc etc...

Before somebody else pounces on you, while Mass Effect is not Call of Duty and most things from that series would be useless in Mass Effect, you're definitely on the right track of mind. Modifiable weapons, like in KOTOR. Except this time they actually affect gameplay.

[Gleym]

It'd be pretty nice if they made a limited amount of mods as opposed to the crapton in ME1, but also made it so that the mods were of a visual nature too. Just seems like a nice touch if anything else.

[SithLordExarKun]

MisterDyslexo wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

Nice and and agreed. I'd love to see some proper mods though and not the lousy ones in ME1. Mods like scopes, holographic sights, dragons breath rounds etc etc...

Before somebody else pounces on you, while Mass Effect is not Call of Duty and most things from that series would be useless in Mass Effect, you're definitely on the right track of mind. Modifiable weapons, like in KOTOR. Except this time they actually affect gameplay.

I wouldn't actually say it is useless, i mean bioware was trying to mash both RPG and shooter aspects(though they got rid of a number of RPG elements in ME2), a holographic site does actually make it much easier to aim at your target and is part of "weapon customization". Heck COD4 and later CODs borrowed RPG elements for their multiplayer, stuff like weapon customization, camo's and Black ops borrows even more RPG elements in their "create a class 2.0" by allowing you to modify your avatars appearence to a certain extent.

What I'm saying is, yes, i like a modified weapon to actually have some aesthetic difference other than stat differences. Just like New Vegas weapon modding system(better accuracy, longer clips etc).

[Vena_86]

Sorry for the spelling fails, it was late when I put this up.
On the weapons - Yes I agree that there should be mods for weapons again. What I show is the basic weapon choice. In ME2 you hardly get any data on the different weapons to compare them. But the biggest problem for me is that when you find a new weapon all the others become obsolete. When you install DLC then it gets worse because you and your squad pretty much end up using the same overpowered weapons for the whole game. So I tried to show how for example the two presented hand guns could be balanced out.

How mods should be handled? I'm not sure yet. But other games give us good examples. I like the way it is done in Crysis.

Ammo Powers:
Yeah I want them gone too. Ammo as an active  "power" makes no sense at all and should probably be handled like mods, if there are going to be mods.  Alternatively, it could be done like in every other shooter, with a quick switch between ammo types, once you found them/researched them. Furthermore the way it is done in ME2 is just annoying the player. There is no reason ever not to use special ammo, but you always have to activate it for every mission, for every weapon. Even worse is that squad mates don't do this them selfs. This kind of micro management is not the kind of "depth" RPGers want, because it is pointless and annoying.

The reason I did not remove them from the powers in the screenshots is because then it would look very akward with only 2 powers for Grunt and 4 for level 30 Shepard. Yeah ME2 has ver few actual active powers....

[RetrOldSchool]

Nice screens and ideas, hope BW takes a look at these!

[Mister Mida]

Impressive. Most impressive. At least it's better than how they handled it in ME2.

[miltos33]

Many people have nice ideas but few can correctly implement them. In this case, the ideas appear to be both well thought-out and well-implemented.

[SimonTheFrog]

Vena_86 wrote...

Sorry for the spelling fails, it was late when I put this up.
On the weapons - Yes I agree that there should be mods for weapons again. What I show is the basic weapon choice. In ME2 you hardly get any data on the different weapons to compare them. But the biggest problem for me is that when you find a new weapon all the others become obsolete. When you install DLC then it gets worse because you and your squad pretty much end up using the same overpowered weapons for the whole game. So I tried to show how for example the two presented hand guns could be balanced out.

How mods should be handled? I'm not sure yet. But other games give us good examples. I like the way it is done in Crysis.

Ammo Powers:
Yeah I want them gone too. Ammo as an active  "power" makes no sense at all and should probably be handled like mods, if there are going to be mods.  Alternatively, it could be done like in every other shooter, with a quick switch between ammo types, once you found them/researched them. Furthermore the way it is done in ME2 is just annoying the player. There is no reason ever not to use special ammo, but you always have to activate it for every mission, for every weapon. Even worse is that squad mates don't do this them selfs. This kind of micro management is not the kind of "depth" RPGers want, because it is pointless and annoying.

The reason I did not remove them from the powers in the screenshots is because then it would look very akward with only 2 powers for Grunt and 4 for level 30 Shepard. Yeah ME2 has ver few actual active powers....

Yup.

Edit: sorry, i'm not yet really through my first coffee... here we go again!

I support the notion of modding weapons and giving character traits, attributes or whatever.

But ME2 (and ME1 for that matter) didn't lack just that, but also the enemies that justify modded weapons. 

In games such as Borderland (which is a very good example for a well done hybrid), enemies have strengths and weaknesses and you want to switch weapons and fighting styles because you see that different weapons have totally different effects in different situations. You basically play with your brain switched on without crunching numbers and personal stats. 
Now, i do understand that Borderland made that their unique selling point whereas ME doesn't. And you can't concentrate on everything at once.

But right now, basically all enemies are identical. They are first yellow and then red. In many cases they are first blue, then yellow, then red. Red is a bit different because when they are red you may cast spells on them. But the first two layers are just health neutral bars that need to be either shot away or "powered" away. And all powers and all weapons are ok for doing that. 
And it makes no sense picking a weapon that is particularly good at reducing, say, armor. Because most enemies also have shields... and health too. There are no levels where enemies are specially armor-heavy. Or where shields are a problem. Maybe one or two enemies IN a certain level. But there is no need to bring a weapon just for that case.

So, you just pick the weapon with the highest number and point and shoot for a while. 

If you want to have a satisfying modding... and character traits, you first need to re-design the whole combat. You need to make enemies diverse. Make them have strengths and weaknesses. (It was especially hilarious in ME1 with the poison ammo and poison shield. Nice on paper but beside the Rachni nobody in the game handled poison. It was a missed opportunity). Create areas where picking a certain mod or weapon really makes a difference (if you have different ammos, re-selecting weapons equipment on the battlefield is not necessary). 

The same goes for armor. Let both Shep and the squad have armor that is good on one thing and not so good on others. This is what the manufactures are for. Some make excellent shields, others make excellent plating. 

And! Get rid of those uber-weapons that ridicule the whole system. Like the spectre equipment or the colossus armor in ME1. Why do i have a choice if one item is better on all stats than the others, by far? 

In ME2 it's obviously the same: only the guns with the biggest number is usually ok. Each weapons type has its "prototype" kind of thing which is instakill or at least overpowered but reloads often. So, there a small tactical choice whether you want attrition or powerful single shots. 

Modifié par SimonTheFrog, 01 décembre 2010 - 11:42 .

[Ahriman]

You guys really should read Escael's threads.









All this was done many months ago.

[Felfenix]

Escael's are better than this thread's.



A stat to determine the responsiveness of your cover controls? Wow... Horrible idea.

[Jebel Krong]

the traits are stupid - if it doesn't add anything to the game it shouldn't be in there, and these just wouldn't. you don't need to include arbitrary stuff to fill out imaginary rpg must-have lists.



weapon/power stats are not a bad idea but persuasion (especially 2 forms) definitely does not need to come back.

[Klimy]

Would be also nice if you could get a specialization, like in ME1 when you did Moon mission you could choose a new specialization based on your class, also when you were promoted to specter you gained a new skill.
ME2 "specialization" was not interesting at all and felt like unimportant balance issue.

I agree with OP also what I want to add is DLC weapons - you get them from the start without gaining them. It feels like cheating and more of FPS when you choose you loadout when you start a match.I think it would make game more interesting if these weapons were unlocked in the shops or found on some levels.

And I'm not even starting to talk about customization of your squad....

Modifié par Klimy, 01 décembre 2010 - 03:06 .

[Vena_86]

@Felfenix: Yeah Escael's stuff is great. But this isn't a freakin' contest but supposed to be feedback. How are different views and options bad?
Agility does not change responsiveness, but increases the speed for certain actions, so that overall the character feels faster and MORE responsive. Only increasing sprint speed would not be enough for this. Get it?

@Jebel Krong: Your comment only shows a lack of imagination and farsight on your side. These traits are the bare minium, to allow customizing your character. Some people prefer to be extremely tough and don't care about powers that much. Some people prefer to play the fast and deadly ninja type. Some people prefer to customize their squad so that every member is great at a certain role, and the right combination is the reward.
And others, like you, can just hit the AUTO UPGRADE BUTTON, or is even that too much to ask for?

Modifié par Vena_86, 01 décembre 2010 - 04:36 .

[Jebel Krong]

Vena_86 wrote...

@Felfenix: Yeah Escael's stuff is great. But this isn't a freakin' contest but supposed to be feedback. How are different views and options bad?
Agility does not change responsiveness, but increases the speed for certain actions, so that overall the character feels faster and MORE responsive. Only increasing sprint speed would not be enough for this. Get it?

@Jebel Krong: Your comment only shows a lack of imagination and farsight on your side. These traits are the bare minium, to allow customizing your character. Some people prefer to be extremely tough and don't care about powers that much. Some people prefer to play the fast and deadly ninja type. Some people prefer to customize their squad so that every member is a great at a certain role, and the right combination is the reward.
And others, like you, can just hit the AUTO UPGRADE BUTTON, or is even that too much to ask for?

not really - the time spent putting these unnecessary mechanics in could be better spent in other areas of the game where the impact would be more appreciated. you can play the game a variety of ways already, we don't need imaginary "agility"/whatever stats adding another layer - all that will do is return the game to the hideous me1 state of being an elite operative who shoots like a member of the a-team - remember that?
weapon stats and the like are ok because those things are in the game already, some people prefer it written down for easy comparison, i can certainly accept that, but having 2 boxes to fill-up for "persuasion" just to have influence is stupid, especially when you already have the alignment system as well.
as for imagination, i can certainly "imagine" me3 being a game that builds on the fantastic foundations of me2, without taking loads of poor suggestions from the "rpg-only-crowd" who want a carbon copy of every previous rpg they've ever played, once again.

[kregano]

I like the OPs ideas, but the only thing I'm concerned with is how the Weapons screen would work out with a more robust customization system. Would the bars have some transparency to them when dealing with stats positively or negatively affected by mods to help the user figure out how the mods would affect their weapons?

[Gleym]

Jebel Krong wrote...

not really - the time spent putting these unnecessary mechanics in could be better spent in other areas of the game where the impact would be more appreciated. you can play the game a variety of ways already, we don't need imaginary "agility"/whatever stats adding another layer - all that will do is return the game to the hideous me1 state of being an elite operative who shoots like a member of the a-team - remember that?
weapon stats and the like are ok because those things are in the game already, some people prefer it written down for easy comparison, i can certainly accept that, but having 2 boxes to fill-up for "persuasion" just to have influence is stupid, especially when you already have the alignment system as well.
as for imagination, i can certainly "imagine" me3 being a game that builds on the fantastic foundations of me2, without taking loads of poor suggestions from the "rpg-only-crowd" who want a carbon copy of every previous rpg they've ever played, once again.

So in short 'I hate RPGs, so I want this Shooter-RPG to ditch all of the RPG features and just be a Shooter.' Thanks for clearing that up. Moving on, then.

[curly haired boy]

i'm an opponent of anything where i have to put points into a stat before my bullets hit a guy i'm clearly aiming at.



do NOT tie combat effectiveness/responsiveness to some meaningless point system. shepard ALREADY knows how to use a gun.

[curly haired boy]

SimonTheFrog wrote...

And it makes no sense picking a weapon that is particularly good at reducing, say, armor. Because most enemies also have shields... and health too. There are no levels where enemies are specially armor-heavy. Or where shields are a problem. Maybe one or two enemies IN a certain level. But there is no need to bring a weapon just for that case.

this is untrue. virtually all the missions in ME2 have enemies with shields and health (Blue suns, eclipse) or armor and health (blood pack) or barriers and health (collectors). you CAN and SHOULD choose your squad/weapon loadout according to the type of enemies encountered on each mission.

[Vena_86]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Vena_86 wrote...

@Felfenix: Yeah Escael's stuff is great. But this isn't a freakin' contest but supposed to be feedback. How are different views and options bad?
Agility does not change responsiveness, but increases the speed for certain actions, so that overall the character feels faster and MORE responsive. Only increasing sprint speed would not be enough for this. Get it?

@Jebel Krong: Your comment only shows a lack of imagination and farsight on your side. These traits are the bare minium, to allow customizing your character. Some people prefer to be extremely tough and don't care about powers that much. Some people prefer to play the fast and deadly ninja type. Some people prefer to customize their squad so that every member is a great at a certain role, and the right combination is the reward.
And others, like you, can just hit the AUTO UPGRADE BUTTON, or is even that too much to ask for?

not really - the time spent putting these unnecessary mechanics in could be better spent in other areas of the game where the impact would be more appreciated. you can play the game a variety of ways already, we don't need imaginary "agility"/whatever stats adding another layer - all that will do is return the game to the hideous me1 state of being an elite operative who shoots like a member of the a-team - remember that?
weapon stats and the like are ok because those things are in the game already, some people prefer it written down for easy comparison, i can certainly accept that, but having 2 boxes to fill-up for "persuasion" just to have influence is stupid, especially when you already have the alignment system as well.
as for imagination, i can certainly "imagine" me3 being a game that builds on the fantastic foundations of me2, without taking loads of poor suggestions from the "rpg-only-crowd" who want a carbon copy of every previous rpg they've ever played, once again.

*sigh*
How is this a carbon copy of every other RPG? This is just splitting up the unrelated values that ME2 combines into one "power", which is totally pointless. Why do you oppose the option to play the game differently, when nothing would really change for you if you where happy with ME2? This was the whole point. Keeping it simple so that nothing changes for those who don't appreaciate roleplaying games, but other atleast have the option to go deeper (yeah lulz).
I am certainly not in the RPG-only-crowd. I have seen the birth of the shooter genre and played pretty much every bigger titles since then. I have played ut2k3 and ut2k4 for years in some top instagib (iCTF, iBR) clans and even founded a very successfull one my self. RPGs have been a much later passion.
I put some thought into what are the most basic things you need to support the most common playstyles without turning into number crunching.
Other than you I am open towards different genres and only want the best mix, the best balance for most people for Mass Effect 3, without forcing anything on anyone. Personally I would like to see more depth and something along the lines of what Escael is suggesting, but I know that BioWare (and EA) are trying to keep things as simple as possible.

Actually I get the impression that you just skimmed over the suggestion and put it into the RPG-elitist box, without even wasting a thought on how something like this would change your game. Because actually it would not change at all if you don't want it to. 

It really sucks when you make the effort of putting things into pictures, because many people can't be bothered to read anymore, but still, wrong and over the top assumptions are made by some trolls.

[Vena_86]

curly haired boy wrote...

i'm an opponent of anything where i have to put points into a stat before my bullets hit a guy i'm clearly aiming at.

do NOT tie combat effectiveness/responsiveness to some meaningless point system. shepard ALREADY knows how to use a gun.

aaand another one who didn't pay attention.
There is nothing that changes how accurate you as a player are, nothing. The accuracy is just for squad mates, I guess putting that in capital letters was not obvious enough? If you refer to the weapons, this is already present in the game. Compare the Locust SMG with the other SMGs and you will see that it is much more accurate. You don't have to spend any points anywhere, to change your accuracy because that is dependent on the weapon and you as a player, just like it is right now in Mass Effect 2. Do I need to use a bigger font and red letters to make it more obvious?
And again, agility does not change responsiveness, but the animation speed, it would go faster if you want to, nothing else.

geez...how can I make these things even more obvious?

Modifié par Vena_86, 01 décembre 2010 - 05:08 .

[Bourne Endeavor]

Hmm, this little thread put my brain to work on how to redesign a customizable weapon system that would essentially allow the same gun to have multiple ways of developing. I am going to have to play around with this after. Thanks TC. As for your suggestions, I am rather intrigued primarily because any implementing feature that bolsters RPG elements is a move in the correct direction in my mind.