116 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

The term 'Shepherd' is usually associated with caretaker. The one who cares, the one who watches over his sheep etc. That's why I like the name in general. Especially for a hero type of character. I really wouldn't go as far as bringing religion into it. Far as I know Shepard isn't exactly the religious or preaching type.

[Tranceptor]

Saibh wrote...

I think that it's not insane to say that there's a link, but I think that it wasn't intentional.

No, it's insane.

[Lord_Caledore]

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.



Sometimes a name is just a name.

[upsettingshorts]

If Alan Shepard were alive, he'd laugh at this thread and go back to playing golf on the Moon:

[nightcobra]

flemmeth: names are pretty but useless

[Saibh]

Tranceptor wrote...

Saibh wrote...

I think that it's not insane to say that there's a link, but I think that it wasn't intentional.

No, it's insane.

So...assuming a character named Shepard who is humanity's savior from a dark and evil threat, dies as a martyr and is resurrected is a Christ figure correlates insanity?

As I said, I believe it's a coincidence, but that people are making connections does not make them stupid. Similar to Morrigan, and people assuming a connection between the shapeshifting Irish goddess of war and strife, or the dark and mysterious sorceress Morgan(a) from Arthurian legend, whose child brought about the end of the kingdom.

That is a coincidence, but it's a very strong coincidence.

Modifié par Saibh, 01 décembre 2010 - 09:33 .

[KJandrew]

i know it doesn't mean delicious little tree in japanese

Modifié par KJandrew, 01 décembre 2010 - 09:36 .

[Winter Wraith]

Saibh wrote...
Similar to Morrigan, and people assuming a connection between the shapeshifting Irish goddess of war and strife, or the dark and mysterious sorceress Morgan(a) from Arthurian legend, whose child brought about the end of the kingdom.

That is a coincidence, but it's a very strong coincidence.

I honestly can't tell if you're being ironic.

Modifié par Winter Wraith, 01 décembre 2010 - 09:36 .

[Saibh]

Winter Wraith wrote...

Saibh wrote...
Similar to Morrigan, and people assuming a connection between the shapeshifting Irish goddess of war and strife, or the dark and mysterious sorceress Morgan(a) from Arthurian legend, whose child brought about the end of the kingdom.

That is a coincidence, but it's a very strong coincidence.

I honestly can't tell if you're being ironic.

Ironic? No, I'm not being ironic. I can't see where you get that--as I said, a lot of people assumed a connection between The Morrigan/Morgan le Fay and Morrigan in DAO because of the similarities; but Morrigan was named after one of DG's friends and the similarities were unintentional.

Shepard is named after Alan Shepard, but some people assume that the similarities are meant to make him a Christ figure. You would be surprised where Christ figures pop up where they don't belong.

No one is crazy for thinking he is, they're just not right.

Modifié par Saibh, 01 décembre 2010 - 09:44 .

[Stanley Woo]

Sometimes a protagonist is merely a protagonist.

[Atakuma]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Sometimes a protagonist is merely a protagonist.

Except when he's ajar..... oh wait.

[AlexXIV]

Winter Wraith wrote...

Saibh wrote...
Similar to Morrigan, and people assuming a connection between the shapeshifting Irish goddess of war and strife, or the dark and mysterious sorceress Morgan(a) from Arthurian legend, whose child brought about the end of the kingdom.

That is a coincidence, but it's a very strong coincidence.

I honestly can't tell if you're being ironic.

I can tell she isn't. All she is saying is that there is alot of coincidence, which makes it natural that people are making connections. Stupid would be if they pull something out of their arses with no base to begin with. But that's not the case here.

[Winter Wraith]

Saibh wrote...
 I can't see where you get that

Sorry, my statement itself was ironic. Your fervent sincerity makes it clear you believe it's all a coincidence, it does however make for amusing reading when you start to list some of the coincidences.

Modifié par Winter Wraith, 02 décembre 2010 - 01:57 .

[William91]

Hawke means epicness!

[Koralis]

Saibh wrote...

Koralis wrote...

Not really grasping in my opinion.

Jesus = savior of humanity
Shepherd = savior of humanity


Both adhere to the Messiah myth, though in different terms (jesus basically spiritual, Shepherd physically stopping the forces of darkness, etc.)

As for Hawke, it could be a reference to keen sight... maybe he "sees" things that no one else does, whether that's literally, spiritually (fade?) or in terms of uncovering secrets remains to be seen.

Of course, the problem with Everyone Is Jesus In Purgatory is that you assume any broad archetype can be instantly pointed out to mean symbolism.

"Saving humanity/galaxy/world/anything" is incredibly broad, and it applies to a lot. That does not mean it's an allegory for Jesus and the Bible. I think that it's not insane to say that there's a link, but I think that it wasn't intentional.

The same way that Morrigan having a lot of connections to The Morrigan is an incredible, unplanned coincidence. It just is. In Shepard's case, you're even building up a story over more than one game, so there's more time to see connections, like his death and resurrection. I doubt the designers had that plot point in mind when they conceived Mass Effect.

You can doubt, I don't.  There's a book out there called "The hero with 1000 faces."    It basically goes on to explain that all of the great myths boil down to very narrow archeotypes and get reused over and over and over again.  If the writers have a plot in mind (and we assume they do) and want to choose a name that seems suitable for the character, they're quite likely to dig out names from thematically similar plots.   On a "gut" level, it makes the stories seem more true to us, because we already know these stories.


The writers may not even really understand why they're choosing particular names... but it all goes back to the ancient myths and tales.  These names feel right to the authors, and the names and tales get perpetuated from one myth to the next.

Modifié par Koralis, 02 décembre 2010 - 01:59 .

[Ulicus]

Bleh. I thought The Hero With  a Thousand Faces was really cool until I actually read it, and discovered how much of the book was taken up talking about Freud and genitalia metaphors.

Saibh wrote...

Ironic? No, I'm not being ironic. I can't see where you get that--as I said, a lot of people assumed a connection between The Morrigan/Morgan le Fay and Morrigan in DAO because of the similarities; but Morrigan was named after one of DG's friends and the similarities were unintentional.

Shepard is named after Alan Shepard, but some people assume that the similarities are meant to make him a Christ figure. You would be surprised where Christ figures pop up where they don't belong.

No one is crazy for thinking he is, they're just not right.

Given that there are parallels, the most you can argue is that Shepard wasn't intentionally a Christ-figure. Whether he is, or isn't, really comes down to your own interpretation of the material. Death of the author, and all that. Does it say more about the individual than the material? Yes... but that's always the case. "Is it what the teacher teaches, or what the student learns?", etc.

But, really, I don't understand why if something didn't factor into how a character was named, it can't have factored into how the character developed.

Shepard was named after Alan Shepard. Sure. So people aren't right if they say "he was named after Jesus" -- but but that's not where the process of character creation ended. "Hey, it's neat how 'Shepard' also works with him being a defender of the galaxy, isn't it? Maybe we can run with that a bit more in ME2? Oh, what if he died and was resurrected! Cool, lets do that! Lazurus project, sweet! One man stands between humanity and complete destruction!"

Similarly, Morrigan was not -- we're told -- named after the Irish goddess (though Morrigan'han, from the story of Luthias, almost certainly was), or Morgan le Fay, but that doesn't entail no influence at all. Hell, IIRC, the original intention was for Morrigan to turn into a raven when she fled Redcliffe castle: the bird that the mythological Morrigan was most associated with.

Modifié par Ulicus, 02 décembre 2010 - 02:34 .

[thedistortedchild]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Shepard was named after the late Alan Shepard, the second person in space and the fifth to walk on the moon.

Not to be disrespectful, but in my college english class we learned about the fallacy of authorial intent. The author may mean one thing, but people are right even when they interpret it to mean something else entirely. If the OP can support the idea that Shepard is Jesus, than to him and  in a literary sense Shepard is Jesus wether you meant him to be or not.

Also every one is Jesus in Purgatory.<3
Edit: I have been ninja'd  

Modifié par thedistortedchild, 02 décembre 2010 - 02:32 .

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

Shepard spelled backwards...is Jesus!

[Ziggeh]

thedistortedchild wrote...

Not to be disrespectful, but in my college english class we learned about the fallacy of authorial intent.

While true, the question was shepard = this, what does hawke equal? If shepard was unintentional, then he's answering the op

It's probably just short and visceral sounding with the bird reference and the hard k.

[thedistortedchild]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

thedistortedchild wrote...

Not to be disrespectful, but in my college english class we learned about the fallacy of authorial intent.

While true, the question was shepard = this, what does hawke equal? If shepard was unintentional, then he's answering the op

It's probably just short and visceral sounding with the bird reference and the hard k.

Yeah I sort of got off topic there huh.
Anyhow, Hawke seems like a decidedly tribal name for a family of Fereldens.  Perhaps dad was Chaisened... It could have more meaning within the story.

[Ulicus]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

thedistortedchild wrote...

Not to be disrespectful, but in my college english class we learned about the fallacy of authorial intent.

While true, the question was shepard = this, what does hawke equal? If shepard was unintentional, then he's answering the op

Yeah, but there's a difference between "You're wrong if you think Shepard is this", which is what was said, and "You're wrong if you think Shepard was named after this".

[Ryllen Laerth Kriel]

H.A.W.K.E.



Hero

Answers

With

Kitschy

Expressions



It's all about the voiced protagonist!

[NamiraWilhelm]

Hairy arsed white kirkwallian entity

[Koralis]

http://www.wired.com...nception_nolan/

Wired: Have you read the online discussions of the film?



Nolan: I’ve seen some of it, yeah. People seem to be noticing the things they’re meant to notice, the things that are meant to either create ambiguities or push you in one direction or another. But I’ve also read plenty of very off-the-wall interpretations. One of the things you do as a writer and as a filmmaker is grasp for resonant symbols and imagery without necessarily fully understanding it yourself. And so there are interpretations to be imposed on the film that aren’t necessarily what I had in my head.

[Ziggeh]

You know, I'm actually a bit annoyed by that TV tropes page.

While it's true that people like to make often spurious connections and define them as definite, connecting images and ideas to other things is practically the definition of art. Most are unintended because it's simply too complex to ever truly map. We filter our experiences through a web of the experiences that preceded it. We view stories through a filter composed of all of the stories we have heard prior to it and we understand and relate to it by drawing parallels, largely unconciously. In creating art you seek to create something that resonates with your own personal experiences, but you have no control over how it will be percieved by others, each with their own infinitely complex web. The only direction you can give it is in refering to common themes that much of the audience will share.

Everybody is jesus in pergatory because both Mr H. Christ and the place of purification are founded on the same psychological principles of all story telling, these are the things we find compelling, these things we all share by virtue of having roughly the same grey mass perched between our ears. One could equally say "Everybody is Human".

God I love a good rant.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 02 décembre 2010 - 08:24 .