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[Killjoy Cutter]

Here's an example of what could have been done differently in ME2, in terms of tightening up the writing and connecting more of the missions to the main plot, and connecting the characters to the main plot:  Tali

When you run into Tali on Freedom's Progress, she says that if she finds anything that might help, she'll get in touch with you.  Instead of the having TIM send you to recruit her... she contacts Shep.  After a couple missions, you get a message to pick her up somewhere... Omega, Citadel, doesn't matter.  She tells you that a team on Haestrom discovered something important -- a Prothean research station instead of the old Quarian colony, perhaps -- then went silent.  The mission to Haestrom is to get in, fight through a combination of Geth* and Collector forces, and rescue as many of the Quarian marines and scientists as possible.  If you want, it turns out that only Kal'Reagar and a few junior techs are still alive, and while you recover is the data, without the senior scientists you don't have a full understanding of what it means, leaving part of the mystery for later.

* Unless you'd already picked up Legion -- which I'd seperate from the whole IFF recovery mission -- you'd have no idea that these were Heretics still working with the Reapers, as opposed to Geth in general.

This ties Tali and the Quarians into the main plot, makes one of your old team-mates pro-active about Shep being back from the missing/dead, and gives us another appearance and direct threat from the Collectors.  It also ties a foe from ME1 directly into ME2 -- if the Heretics are still working with the Reapers actively in ME2, it gives both Shep and Legion more reason to work together. 

Tali doesn't need a loyalty mission, she's one of the old squad, and you just helped her rescue more Quarians. 

If you do want the politically-motivated show trial to take place later, none of this prevents it from happening, maybe even partially motivated by Tali involving Shep in the matter on Haestrom. 

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 01 décembre 2010 - 05:47 .

[ajw]

Milana_Saros wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

- Shepard and Normandy are destroyed... then both rebuilt!? WTF?

Indeed. Especially when regarding this, there are so many things left unexplained and unexplored. In the start, who is attacking the base? Why is Wilson trying to kill you? You escape, Miranda kills Wilson and then you, "get the hell of the station". Ehhh?

Also Cerberus...they've done some pretty nasty and crooked experiments, right? So amazingly Shepard doesn't have any questions whatsover about what the Hell did Cerberus really do to her? How much metal and tech does she have in her? Is she even a damn human anymore or more like Robocop? People keep saying how they would like Shepard to marry / have kids at the end of ME3...is she even capable of that? Or are her important parts replaced with batteries?

This brings me to another thing: Chakwas. She is in the new Normandy and doesn't even gasp when she sees you. As a medical expert, she should know that Cerberus did something pretty damn amazing (or disturbed) in order to bring her back. Also, there is no option to tell Chakwas to give you a medical check or something.

She gets blown up into bits and then Cerberus builds her up like a puzzle and tells her to work for them and Shepard just "goes with the flow"? My 100% Paragon Shep would go berserk and start shooting people for the mere thought of that.

As for the Normandy...yeah they upgraded it but it's still pretty much the excact same ship. And Alliance doesn't have any hizzle hazzle with this? That their most advanced ship gets blown up and then an organisation like Cerberus builds an excact same ship? With even upgraded tech? I always thought that "ship plans" like that would be classified and stuff....

Indeed the failure of the second game to deal with any of that was a major let down.  I would have loved if I could have gotten Chakwas to give my Shepard a thorough medical checkup - for the player it could have been something that unlocked improved abilities in Shepard as he/she is now basically a cyborg.

[Xilizhra]

That is really what the logical continuation of ME1 should have been about, finding out how the Reapers plan to get here now, figuring out a way to stop them, and ultimately failing to do so, setting up ME3 and the ultimate showdown nicely. If the plan is "just float right on in to town" doesn't that make basically everything we have done up to this point feel really cheap and irrelevant?

Not in the least. We have the Citadel, and we have the relay network, neither of which we would have if Sovereign had won.

[ajw]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Here's an example of what could have been done differently in ME2, in terms of tightening up the writing and connecting more of the missions to the main plot, and connecting the characters to the main plot:  Tali

When you run into Tali on Freedom's Progress, she says that if she finds anything that might help, she'll get in touch with you.  Instead of the having TIM send you to recruit her... she contacts Shep.  After a couple missions, you get a message to pick her up somewhere... Omega, Citadel, doesn't matter.  She tells you that a team on Haestrom discovered something important -- a Prothean research station instead of the old Quarian colony, perhaps -- then went silent.  The mission to Haestrom is to get in, fight through a combination of Geth* and Collector forces, and rescue as many of the Quarian marines and scientists as possible.  If you want, it turns out that only Kal'Reagar and a few junior techs are still alive, and while you recover is the data, without the senior scientists you don't have a full understanding of what it means, leaving part of the mystery for later.

* Unless you'd already picked up Legion -- which I'd seperate from the whole IFF recovery mission -- you'd have no idea that these were Heretics still working with the Reapers, as opposed to Geth in general.

This ties Tali and the Quarians into the main plot, makes one of your old team-mates pro-active about Shep being back from the missing/dead, and gives us another appearance and direct threat from the Collectors.  It also ties a foe from ME1 directly into ME2 -- if the Heretics are still working with the Reapers actively in ME2, it gives both Shep and Legion more reason to work together. 

Tali doesn't need a loyalty mission, she's one of the old squad, and you just helped her rescue more Quarians. 

If you do want the politically-motivated show trial to take place later, none of this prevents it from happening, maybe even partially motivated by Tali involving Shep in the matter on Haestrom. 

Interesting idea.

You know you could write a fanfic based off that idea:)

[Dean_the_Young]

Not just that, Xil. We also have a more proactive Council, the galaxy's most important players have started expanding their fleets and forces, as well as at last beginning to mitigate the Reaper tech advantage.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 décembre 2010 - 05:57 .

[cdtrk65]

Perhaps they had a different strategy to take the tower, Sovereign might have succeed had he not taken over Sarens body and fought Shepard. I noticed that Hairball never sticks around after the armor is gone.



But I to was another of the people disappointed with the story of ME2, and I only knew that Shepard was possibly dead.



The whole council thing upset me at first but,I can believe the council would backslide on the reapers even after being attacked. It's been two years in between and even the geth have become an after thought. It's not uncommon to have so called life changing things happen when people think they are about to die, or are dying, I know of people that have said they were going to change if they'd get better. When they did, the somehow forgot all about it. Besides that they were relucant to believe Shepard in the first place, and they were always questioned Shepard's decisions. Heck if you think about it, Shepard can almost be like the crazy assitant on Eden Prime, a little less crazy of course.



The things that did bother me about the story have pretty much all been said. The biggest is I didn't like the whole Shepard death to restart on all abilities and face changes (do we even need a story for why?) I know that it also restarted Shepard's crew and gave the chance to enchance the Normandy.



Shepard's death seemed like a shortcut. Wouldn't have been more dramatic if Shepard actually choose to join Cerberus? It would have made the whole Virmire survior convertion a whole lot more interesting



What I mean is, say the game begins instead with Shep at the Cidital, doing an interveiw with Emily Wong (that a lot of us were expecting and never got). Of course being a reporter she is going have connections (say a little birdy like TIM sends info) and it comes to her & SHep's attention Shepard goes to council and asked to investage gets the typical stone wall reaction, nope sorry no Tereminus systems for you, can't risk war blah, blah, blah. Alliance doesnt want to send you too short on men and ships since soverign, thanks for all your hard work, but no. Heck they can even repo the Normandy and expel Joker since they did sort of steal it at the end.



Along comes Miranda and Jacob, filling Sheps head with just enough info, to speculate the reapers are involved. Hey and guess what we are going out there to investage, wanna come? (At that point they don't even need to tell Shep they are Cerberus). Of course they can only take Shep and no one else. Before to far in they can reveal they are with Cerberus,Shep can be outraged or not care at all. By then Shep is already tainted as working with Cerberus, and loses standing with council.



I think, for the most part the biggest thing is everyone had so much expectations and the story just failed to deliver..

[Luigitornado]

Milana_Saros wrote...

onelifecrisis wrote...

- Shepard and Normandy are destroyed... then both rebuilt!? WTF?

Indeed. Especially when regarding this, there are so many things left unexplained and unexplored. In the start, who is attacking the base? Why is Wilson trying to kill you? You escape, Miranda kills Wilson and then you, "get the hell of the station". Ehhh?

Also Cerberus...they've done some pretty nasty and crooked experiments, right? So amazingly Shepard doesn't have any questions whatsover about what the Hell did Cerberus really do to her? How much metal and tech does she have in her? Is she even a damn human anymore or more like Robocop? People keep saying how they would like Shepard to marry / have kids at the end of ME3...is she even capable of that? Or are her important parts replaced with batteries?

This brings me to another thing: Chakwas. She is in the new Normandy and doesn't even gasp when she sees you. As a medical expert, she should know that Cerberus did something pretty damn amazing (or disturbed) in order to bring her back. Also, there is no option to tell Chakwas to give you a medical check or something.

She gets blown up into bits and then Cerberus builds her up like a puzzle and tells her to work for them and Shepard just "goes with the flow"? My 100% Paragon Shep would go berserk and start shooting people for the mere thought of that.

As for the Normandy...yeah they upgraded it but it's still pretty much the excact same ship. And Alliance doesn't have any hizzle hazzle with this? That their most advanced ship gets blown up and then an organisation like Cerberus builds an excact same ship? With even upgraded tech? I always thought that "ship plans" like that would be classified and stuff....

-There are video/audio logs that suggest that Wilson was upset about the possibility of not being compensated well enough for his efforts.As most disgruntle employees do, Wilson attempts to sabotage/destroy his work to
get back at his employer.


-Shepard does question what happened to him, and Cerberus tells him why they brought him back. Maybe you would freak out about the possibility of some sort of mind control device, and have a million questions about the project. At the core of Shepard's personality s/he is a pragmatist. Cerberus went to great lengths to bring Shepard back from the dead. Shepard recognizes this and understands the importance of the upcoming threat, so it seems reasonable that s/he cooperates with them…not to mention that they have the resources to fund his/her mission.

-Trivial. Joker didn’t gasp. The only one who seemed astonished was Tali. And again with the paranoia. Is it possible that Bioware did not want to bring too much attention to the implants just yet? If it was suggested more than once during ME2, we would all be expecting some sort of revelation by the games end dealing with them. And if the revelation did not happen, fans would complain, if it did, critics would complain about how it felt detached from the overall plot.

- Your 100% Paragon Shepard would do nothing of the sort because Shepard would never do that. You are guiding the story of Shepard, not creating your own story.

-If you bothered to talk to EDI, you would have been told that the original Normady collaboration was pushed by Cerberus. They redesigned the Normady from the original plans.

Modifié par Luigitornado, 01 décembre 2010 - 06:25 .

[Schneidend]

Sorry to c-c-c-c-combo breaker the self-indulgent "we all hate ME2's story so let's nod and agree with each other for pages on end" soundboard, but I enjoyed ME2 overall a great deal more than ME1.



That is to say, I love both games, but just find ME2 to be superior in every single respect.

[AdmiralCheez]

@Schneidend: I liked ME2 better, too. A lot better, in fact. It just needed better villains, and the loyalty quests could have been a touch more integrated into the central plot.

[Schneidend]

ME2 wasn't really supposed to be about the game's main vents. Obviously, stopping the Collectors was important, but being prepared to face almost certain death was the main drive of the game's story. It's a mainly character-driven story, and that apparently scares some people.



I can agree on the villains bit, to a degree. I liked Warden Kuril, the gal running the krogan breeding facility, the Merc Boss Trifecta on Omega, and even Harbinger. They just needed more development. Also, the various mercenary stomping sidequest chains needed antagonists with dialogue, as well.

[Cornelian]

ME1 and ME2 are both a setup for ME3 indoctrination by Bioware and EA.



Especially ME2.



The question is : indoctrination of who?

[Milana_Saros]

Luigitornado wrote...

-There are video/audio logs that suggest that Wilson was upset about the possibility of not being compensated well enough for his efforts.As most disgruntle employees do, Wilson attempts to sabotage/destroy his work to
get back at his employer.


-Shepard does question what happened to him, and Cerberus tells him why they brought him back. Maybe you would freak out about the possibility of some sort of mind control device, and have a million questions about the project. At the core of Shepard's personality s/he is a pragmatist. Cerberus went to great lengths to bring Shepard back from the dead. Shepard recognizes this and understands the importance of the upcoming threat, so it seems reasonable that s/he cooperates with them…not to mention that they have the resources to fund his/her mission.

-Trivial. Joker didn’t gasp. The only one who seemed astonished was Tali. And again with the paranoia. Is it possible that Bioware did not want to bring too much attention to the implants just yet? If it was suggested more than once during ME2, we would all be expecting some sort of revelation by the games end dealing with them. And if the revelation did not happen, fans would complain, if it did, critics would complain about how it felt detached from the overall plot.

- Your 100% Paragon Shepard would do nothing of the sort because Shepard would never do that. You are guiding the story of Shepard, not creating your own story.

-If you bothered to talk to EDI, you would have been told that the original Normady collaboration was pushed by Cerberus. They redesigned the Normady from the original plans.

Fair enough. I also like to note that no, I did not read every damn holo tape and codex entry in the game cos' I'm more concerned in playing the actual game.  And I'm not paranoid, I'm just being logical and going with what I see by just "playing the game".

And yeah, I guess it's painfully obvious that we're playing the story of Shepard, not our own story. We might be Renegades / Paragons as much as we want but in the end, it's the guys who write the story that pull the strings and define the personality of our own made Shepard. The choices to kill Cerberus operatives and whatnot in ME1...irrelevant.

But hey, if you think it's all clear and dandy then guess it is. Excuse my uneducated self. Just wondering why the story feels so damn rushed if it makes so much sense. Don't get me wrong, ME2 is a good game but story wise...it doesn't even come close to ME1 in integrity.

[kraidy1117]

Schneidend wrote...

ME2 wasn't really supposed to be about the game's main vents. Obviously, stopping the Collectors was important, but being prepared to face almost certain death was the main drive of the game's story. It's a mainly character-driven story, and that apparently scares some people.

ME2 is the middle of the trilogy and the middle of the trilogy advances the overall plot, which ME2 did not. If Bioware wanted to make a game focused on characters, they could have done a diffrent series, not do that on the second chapter of a trilogy(even then, ME2 is a terrible character focus game)

That's why a lot of people including me hate the story, not only was it badly writen, it does not do what it was ment to do. LotSB, a 3 hour DLC advanced the overall plot better then a 25+ game.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 01 décembre 2010 - 07:38 .

[RiouHotaru]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Schneidend: I liked ME2 better, too. A lot better, in fact. It just needed better villains, and the loyalty quests could have been a touch more integrated into the central plot.

Eh, the problem I had with Saren is that he was introduced FAR too early in the story.  His motivations are established within the first few hours, and then BLAM.  Off we go Saren-hunting.  Then you spend the ENTIRE game with him always two or more steps ahead of you, despite the fact you seemingly score some major victories.  Only to catch up to him and actually deal him a decisive blow RIGHT at the end of the game.  And only because he's about a few steps from winning.

ME2's enemy, The Collectors, being far more nebulous and unknown felt better to me.  There was always this uncertainty, this question of: "Why are they doing this?  What do they possibly gain?"  We start gathering a team, then come across the fact that the Collectors ARE in fact working for the Reapers, and have this nebulous leader known as Harbinger who has an unhealthy obsession with Shepard, but can't be killed.

But again, we don't know why the Reapers took a sudden interest in humanity.  In fact, establishing that fact was NEVER THE POINT.  The point of the game was to put an end to the abduction of human colonists.  While there's obviously the argument of "WHAT ABOUT THE REAPER INVASION??" the fact remains that there was no way to establish when they'd get here, or even IF they'd make it.  You only have Shepard's word.  How much preparation could you do?  How long would you plan for these preparations to last?

The fact that we discover things like "Collectors = Protheans" and "Collectors work for Reapers" is just icing on the cake.  The cake itself is the attempt to go through the Omega-4 Relay and stop the collectors from taking any more humans.  TIM had that set has his goal from the start: Stop the immediate Reaper plot, which could be the prelude to something sinister.  Which as it turns out, it was.  What was that plot?  We'll never know for sure, because the Reaper's Blue and Orange morality makes their intentions uncomprehendible.

Did we do anything to stop the incoming invasion?  No.  Did we put an end to their scheme which could've have unknown but potentially disasterous consequences?  Yes.  And THAT, was the point of ME2.

As for the loyalty missions?  Perhaps some slight integration into the plot.  But for the most part they made sense to me.  They were disconnected because of how the characters in question start them.  For example, you can't really integrate Jacob's mission into the plot.  It requires Miranda to find the distress call and route it to Jacob, or it doesn't happen.  Garrus [and also by default, Thane], have to have their contacts on the Citadel find someone important.  So me personally, I didn't have a problem with how the missions were established.

In all honesty, I didn't have any problem with ME2 at all.  I actually enjoyed the quicker and more consistent pacing.  But that's just me.

[Luigitornado]

@kraidy1117



ME2 does advance the overall plot, just not in a way that you seem to like.

[Luigitornado]

Milana_Saros wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

-There are video/audio logs that suggest that Wilson was upset about the possibility of not being compensated well enough for his efforts.As most disgruntle employees do, Wilson attempts to sabotage/destroy his work to
get back at his employer.


-Shepard does question what happened to him, and Cerberus tells him why they brought him back. Maybe you would freak out about the possibility of some sort of mind control device, and have a million questions about the project. At the core of Shepard's personality s/he is a pragmatist. Cerberus went to great lengths to bring Shepard back from the dead. Shepard recognizes this and understands the importance of the upcoming threat, so it seems reasonable that s/he cooperates with them…not to mention that they have the resources to fund his/her mission.

-Trivial. Joker didn’t gasp. The only one who seemed astonished was Tali. And again with the paranoia. Is it possible that Bioware did not want to bring too much attention to the implants just yet? If it was suggested more than once during ME2, we would all be expecting some sort of revelation by the games end dealing with them. And if the revelation did not happen, fans would complain, if it did, critics would complain about how it felt detached from the overall plot.

- Your 100% Paragon Shepard would do nothing of the sort because Shepard would never do that. You are guiding the story of Shepard, not creating your own story.

-If you bothered to talk to EDI, you would have been told that the original Normady collaboration was pushed by Cerberus. They redesigned the Normady from the original plans.

Fair enough. I also like to note that no, I did not read every damn holo tape and codex entry in the game cos' I'm more concerned in playing the actual game.  And I'm not paranoid, I'm just being logical and going with what I see by just "playing the game".

And yeah, I guess it's painfully obvious that we're playing the story of Shepard, not our own story. We might be Renegades / Paragons as much as we want but in the end, it's the guys who write the story that pull the strings and define the personality of our own made Shepard. The choices to kill Cerberus operatives and whatnot in ME1...irrelevant.

But hey, if you think it's all clear and dandy then guess it is. Excuse my uneducated self. Just wondering why the story feels so damn rushed if it makes so much sense. Don't get me wrong, ME2 is a good game but story wise...it doesn't even come close to ME1 in integrity.

No it does. Just not in the way you wish it did.

[kraidy1117]

Luigitornado wrote...

@kraidy1117

ME2 does advance the overall plot, just not in a way that you seem to like.

ORLY? Tell me where then, because at the end of the game Shepard and his crew are in the same place they where at the end of ME, no idea on how to take out the Reapers or what is gonig to happen.

LotSB is the only thing that truly advanced the overall plot, and that was a 3 hour dlc.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 01 décembre 2010 - 08:00 .

[Cornelian]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

@kraidy1117

ME2 does advance the overall plot, just not in a way that you seem to like.

ORLY? Tell me where then, because at the end of the game Shepard and his crew are in the same place they where at the end of ME, no idea on how to take out the Reapers or what is gonig to happen.

LotSB is the only thing that truly advanced the overall plot, and that was a 3 hour dlc.

Well... Take a look at your save at the end of ME1, and then your save at the end of ME2. It seems to me something have happened between these two saves, and that they aren't identical, even without LotSB.

Perhaps more potential allies? More knowledge from your foes, from your allies and ME2 universe? I don't know...

[kraidy1117]

Cornelian wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

@kraidy1117

ME2 does advance the overall plot, just not in a way that you seem to like.

ORLY? Tell me where then, because at the end of the game Shepard and his crew are in the same place they where at the end of ME, no idea on how to take out the Reapers or what is gonig to happen.

LotSB is the only thing that truly advanced the overall plot, and that was a 3 hour dlc.

Well... Take a look at your save at the end of ME1, and then your save at the end of ME2. It seems to me something have happened between these two saves, and that they aren't identical, even without LotSB.

Perhaps more potential allies? More knowledge from your foes, from your allies and ME2 universe? I don't know...

We know nothing new about the Reapers, unless you think knowing how Reapers are made is going to help us destory the Reapers.

As for our allies, al that is optonal, it will not matter in ME3 at all. The most ou will get is a email.

[Luigitornado]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

@kraidy1117

ME2 does advance the overall plot, just not in a way that you seem to like.

ORLY? Tell me where then, because at the end of the game Shepard and his crew are in the same place they where at the end of ME, no idea on how to take out the Reapers or what is gonig to happen.

LotSB is the only thing that truly advanced the overall plot, and that was a 3 hour dlc.

You stopped the collectors from making a dooming situation possibly worse, you learned information about the reapers and plot points that will no doubt play an important part in ME3, and you starting gathering allies for the final confrontation.

[Milana_Saros]

Luigitornado wrote...


No it does. Just not in the way you wish it did.

OK

[Luigitornado]

kraidy1117 wrote...

Cornelian wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

@kraidy1117

ME2 does advance the overall plot, just not in a way that you seem to like.

ORLY? Tell me where then, because at the end of the game Shepard and his crew are in the same place they where at the end of ME, no idea on how to take out the Reapers or what is gonig to happen.

LotSB is the only thing that truly advanced the overall plot, and that was a 3 hour dlc.

Well... Take a look at your save at the end of ME1, and then your save at the end of ME2. It seems to me something have happened between these two saves, and that they aren't identical, even without LotSB.

Perhaps more potential allies? More knowledge from your foes, from your allies and ME2 universe? I don't know...

We know nothing new about the Reapers, unless you think knowing how Reapers are made is going to help us destory the Reapers.

As for our allies, al that is optonal, it will not matter in ME3 at all. The most ou will get is a email.

And why wouldn't it? Knowing your enemy is certainly a plus. We also know that they have vunerable AI cores that can be destoryed, and depending on your choice, you also have the collectors base at your disposal.

[kraidy1117]

Luigitornado wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

@kraidy1117

ME2 does advance the overall plot, just not in a way that you seem to like.

ORLY? Tell me where then, because at the end of the game Shepard and his crew are in the same place they where at the end of ME, no idea on how to take out the Reapers or what is gonig to happen.

LotSB is the only thing that truly advanced the overall plot, and that was a 3 hour dlc.

You stopped the collectors from making a dooming situation possibly worse, you learned information about the reapers and plot points that will no doubt play an important part in ME3, and you starting gathering allies for the final confrontation.

The collectors where a ME2 only threat, they have no bearing on the overall trilogy. You don't even know about them until ME2.

As for the Reapers, all we know is hopw they are made, thats it.

As for getting allies in ME2, that was opotna(sp) and it will not matter in ME3. You will be getting allies in ME3 yes, but what you did in ME2 won't make a diffrence.

[kraidy1117]

Luigitornado wrote...

And why wouldn't it? Knowing your enemy is certainly a plus. We also know that they have vunerable AI cores that can be destoryed, and depending on your choice, you also have the collectors base at your disposal.

Knowing how your enemy is made won't make a diffren when they start attacking. As for tehre cores, unless you can clone your self or trains over a thousand people on hwo to take down there cores, that also won't make a diffrnce.

The Collector base is opontal(sp) and to add to it, is a renagade choice and we all know how bioware treat those choices.

[Luigitornado]

You are assuming now. You are assuming that important plot keys/choices won't have any significance in the final battle. Last time I checked, the final decision in the ME2, is more important than deciding to punch a reporter in the face.